West-se

Sorry, I didn't realize you were using plug and play. And you've got the AFM connected so It's most likely a fuel settings issue, your not running enough like Ken says, a req_fuel of 4.7 seems low i'd bump that up to 8 and try going up from there 1 decimal point at a time. Also the table generation tool i found to be useless for our engines. Remember when you first fire up your car its running enriched and as soon as the initial startup enrichment is over (200 cycles) usually you'll go to your VE1 tables settings which are using req_fuel for there calculations and if either values in the table or req_fuel are too far out, you'll simply stall. I found the warmup wizard very usefull once I got my car to idle.

Please correct me if I am wrong on any points guys

muythaibxr

It usually generates tables that are too lean, which is better than too rich b/c then you won't flood the engine. So I wouldn't call it useless... once you get the engine running by adjusting req_fuel, you can scale the table and reset req_fuel.

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

Ken you are right about the .msq originally being set to 9.6. At some point I re-input all the settings following the FAQ so thats where the 4.7 came from. I`ll reset to 8.0 as a starting point and try again.

muythaibxr

the FAQ has 9.4... I'm not sure how following the settings there would give you 4.7.

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

Ken you are sure right. I printed the FAQ out some time ago and its there plain as day 9.4. I had written down by hand some of the settings and I have no idea where I got 4.7. I guess I should not stay at this as late into the evening as I`ve been doing. Anyway the 7 starts with a setting of 9.4 but will not idle at all until warmed completely up. I still need to tune the setup but It runs now and I feel great. This is probably one of the more technical things I`ve ever taken on. Thanks to you and everyone who has helped so far. I`m done for the night due to my timing light not working at all, I`ll have to replace it this weekend so I can set the timing to the mark.

Also, I changed the resistor and transistor as recommended in the FAQ so I would be able to control the BAC. I`m sure this will help cold idle quite a bit. I know which pin is the BAC (2Q) but where am I hooking it on the MS. I see the FIdle relay is pin 30 on the MS DB37 is this what I`m looking for or is it differant?

muythaibxr

yeah you want fidle...

Make sure you make that circuit look exactly like the 2.2 version of the circuit, with a 1n4001 diode to +12v to the leg on the transistor that hooks to the fidle pin, and make sure you get rid of r39 and jumper it instead.

Basically you're trying to make the v3 circuit look like the v2.2 circuit.

West-se

warmup wizzard will help you with your startup idle probs, and timming should make a good difference too. Congrats I feel your joy I know how nice it is to have this work.

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

Okay, I got a new timing light and got the timing set to spec. both lead and trail are dead on their respective marks. I`ve been working with required fuel all day trying to get the car to idle smooth. Once its GOOD and warmed up I can eventually get it to idle but if I try to raise RPMs they will increase then stumble then increase then stumble. This thing bounces around a lot. Now if I really baby the throttle I can get the idle back down and it will idle pretty smooth. I`ve increase req. fuel , decreased req. fuel, I`ve even moved the VE table up both up and down slightlytrying to find a sweet spot. Is this just caused by not getting the mixture right or is there something else wrong maybe? Keep in mind I can reconnect the stock ECU and put the stock CAS back and she runs perfect.
TIA

renns

Are you using a base map from somewhere? That would save time over starting from scratch.

If tuning from scratch, figure out what your req_fuel number should be, set it, and leave it alone. All you are doing is scaling the entire VE table by messing with that number. Once set, get the engine warm (above 160F coolant temp), prior to trying to make VE table adjustments. This prevents warmup enrichments from messing with things. Go back and read the tuning section of the MegaManual 2 or 3 times. Then read it again... It'll all come together with time.

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

Hey renns, thanks for chiming in! I did not really get a base map to work with unless the settings in the FAQ are okay for my stock S4 NA. the only thing differant is the req fuel I`m using is 9.6 instead of 9.4 and I generated the VE table using the following info,
700 RPM idle @ 20kPa
135ftlbs @3500 RPM 100kPa
145 HP @ 6500 RPM 100kPa
7000 RPM Redline

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

Here is the point I`m at so far.

muythaibxr

As renns said, basically you just don't have the engine tuned at all yet. It's going to take quite a bit of work to get it there.

renns

I took a look at your config. The basics seem to be set up correctly, but the VE table looks a bit 'flat' to me. In other words, the ve spread from low map to high map is not as high as I would expect. I've ran a stock 6-port FC with MS a few years back, but I was running dual table mode, with 8x8 tables. Here's a map I used this spring as baseline for running my turbo 6-port. It is based on my n/a map, with some SWAG'd higher map values tossed in. It's based on a req_fuel of 7.3 and 550 cc injectors, and will need tweaking for your install, but should get you driving at least. Ken, don't you have base VE maps floating about somewhere? The spark maps are shown in the FAQ, but not the VE. They should both be there, in downloadable 'vex' format to save re-typing all those cells.

Here's what I'd suggest:
Throw in this map (or another from a helpful donor) for fuel table 1.
Start up.
If it won't stay running, tweak req_fuel, or scale the entire VE table to suit.
Once running and warm, find a friend, and go out for a drive. I'd suggest turning off accel enrichments initially (set TPS threshold to 10v/s), and take it easy on the pedal.
Find quiet safe roads, and drive around at various rpm/map load points. Stay in the low-load areas for the first while. With EGO correction on (16 events per step, 2% step size, 50% authority), watch the EGO Correction % value. If it's higher than 100%, that indicates MS is ADDING fuel to compensate for a VE table value that's too low in that area. If EGO Corr% is less than 100%, then MS is REMOVING fuel as VE's are a bit high. Adjust VE values to tune for around 90-95%. That way in open loop mode the base table values will be slightly richer than target. When fine-tuning, or tuning higher load points the events per step, step size, and authority numbers can be changed to provide less aggressive corrections. The higher load points are typically tuned with ego correction off, by estimating appropriate VE table entries, and testing. If you have access to a wideband, go that route, as it's much easier.

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

Thanks renns, I threw in that table. Now remember I`m NOT boosted so I altered the kPa part of the table to top out at 100kPa. I`ll give this a shot later today.
Thanks for your patients and input.
Scott

SirCygnus

iTrader: (1)

wow. so now i know a little bit more thanks to renns.

muythaibxr

tofuball has his map that he was using on his convertable before we took it down for maintainance. I don't have that map on this laptop. I didn't want to post that because I know already that he's running very lean on cruise, and I'm not confident that doing that is safe. (He was running as high as 16.5:1 on cruise). I can ask him to post a map here that he is confident in if that helps.

I also took a look at that configuration but fell asleep writing my response last night. Everything looks good, you're just going to need to tune it.

If you're using the ignition table I posted, I'd suggest backing off the advance throughout most of the lower rev part of the table, then gradually adding it back in. That table was the one we made for an S5 NA, which I believe can handle more advance than an S4 even with the higher compression because they moved the location of the leading plugs in the housing for the S5.

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Ken, if you can post that map or you could even e-mail it to me that would be a big help as well. I will be sure to richen it up for cruising so as to give more of a safety net and avoid detonation. I`m reading and rereading the Tuning chapter in Megamanual so I`m slowly getting a better understanding on this. I find that being able to see what is already working for someone helps me to get a firmer grip on the overall concept. I am fully aware that using someone elses .msq can be really bad for an engine since no two setups are alike even if they are physicaly simular. Also the way the engine stumbles it could very well be the spark advance table causing some of it. I`ll try a more conservative advance curve.

** Anything provided by another member will be used at my own risk, I accept full responsibility!**

Thanks guys for all the hard work on my behalf

renns

I've been running advance values very similar to that table in my 6-port, and have had no issues. Timing is retarded significantly with boost, though. I doubt you'll hurt the engine any running lean at cruise power. Too lean, and you'll end up getting misfire/hunting sensation that will push you back to a slightly richer setting. I run about 15.5:1 in cruise.

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

renns , are you running a BOOSTED 6 port or NA?

renns

I ran 6-port NA last year, boosted 6-port this year. I'm running the stock S5 turbo setup, adapted to 6-port block with FMIC in an early 1st gen (1979).

muythaibxr

We think he may have overheated and damaged the rotors themselves. He started having all kinds of weird problems after running really lean on cruise for a few days.

renns

I'd be very surprised if there was any direct link between lean cruise and Tofuball's problem. The rotary aviation guys run these engines wide open at altitude for hours on end 200 degrees lean of peak, and have had great success. In fact, that's one operating regime where the rotary is competitive with boingers from a BSFC standpoint. Those in-flight cruise points are also at least two times the hp we need to cruise the highways. Outside of track use, our engines really live a pretty easy life.

muythaibxr

I don't have any idea what's wrong with his engine then. I do know what I saw though. I guess he might've run too lean under load.

Tofuball

Pshh, I think the problem was that I crammed the WBO2, The *error board, and the MS2 all into the stock ECU case, and made it use the stock ECU connector. Perhaps something just got too close to something else. Man was that ever a stupid idea. I should have just stuck with the stock MegaSquirt box and TechEdge WBO2 box and called it a day

I am currently rebiulding the ECU end of the harness, and using a completely different ECU (A custom V3 based on the PnP MegaSquirts) and WBO2 unit (the Innovate LC-1).

However, I ran similarly lean for months with no issues.

When the car is up and running again, I will be running the car slightly richer with more advance to give it a bit more "ooph" up hills so I dont need to move the throttle as much. I will also have the Cessna twin EGT gauge to help tune the advance

2713ddddavid

iTrader: (1)

Thanks guys for all the info. I`m learning a lot. I went ahead and purchased an Inovate LC 1 wide band O2 setup from DIY Autotune. $199 was more than I really wanted to spend right now but I`ll get over it I`m sure. Should have it in a couple of days. I hope this will help me get rid of the surging then stumbling back and forth. I also had my kid K.I.A. my laptop. I`m in no way prepared to replace that any time soon. I`ll set up one of my spare desktops in the garage but don`t know what I`ll do about getting out of the driveway.........