thanks howard that was a very intresting read sounds like all is going well. I have also made some progress with my car many thanks for the tps wireing ya gave me to seems i had it wrong but have now driven car and am very impressed with the turbo and the way it reacts altho i was at a point wer i was going to throw my link rx in rubbish thanks to people like u and richard from green brothers racing i didnt just gota set my cold start and i should be finished ready for next dyno session

 

good to hear howard; you're really not wasting any time with this are you?! keep the updates coming mate

Brad.

 

update:

i was lucky that winter arrived Dec 8 as the car happily traversed the 100 mile journey to Beyond Redline/Green Bay on the 5th.

it is now in tune-land for Jan/Feb and under the control of ace tuner Luke Stubbs. Luke had not previously tuned any Link/ViPEC apps. i brought my laptop in from the car and we sat in the boardroom for a couple of hours and i could see Luke's eyes widening just a bit. i could also see, as he played the keyboard at a high rate, his genius quickly emerging. all kinds of little corners of the maps were quickly being massaged into proper shape.

the plan is a 2 step:

step one

spend a bunch of time on the overall global map. this includes leaving the car outside to get it down to below freezing for cold startup settings. w what i had in the car, it would really not be happy on cold start.... lots of stuttering w the AFRs really rich. once cold start is set it will be on to the eddy current dyno to do overall tuning.

step two

power tune. i will be riding shotgun in the car for that phase.

the shop is very busy and i suggested that Luke work on the car when he has non-rush on the schedule. he agreed as we don't want this to be a slam bang affair.

i noticed a couple of cars in the shop belonging to our beloved Packers... one was a Bronco that was just about to receive a brand spanking new 427 Ford crate motor. hmmm

so we proceed ahead and the project is now handed off and is very capable hands for the next phase.

looking forward... we have a total of 3 turbos to fully evaluate in Jan/Feb.

March will be dedicated to getting ready for the Texas Standing Mile which is at month end. it will take 600 rwhp thru 5 gears to run the number. 200. Luke's dyno will allow us to actually tune the engine at 200 mph. given 30 seconds, or thereabouts, at 600 we will be switching out the 93 pump for either racegas or straight methanol. the primary reason the T56 6 speed is in my car is the Mile. the FD gearbox has a real weanie 5th, in addition to bad gear spacing.

that is the plan. during the last 2 years things have not gone anywhere near plan and i hope the trend changes.

as i get info from Beyond Redline i will be happy to share.

howard

 

Differential Fuel Pressure

i just opened my email and received a belated Christmas present from ViPEC.

post 10 in a Single Turbo Section thread re fuel pressure shows how a Haltech ECU enables the user to take engine saving actions should the fuel pressure diverge from boost pressure.

WOW, that's good stuff.

not being aware if my V88 had such a feature i emailed them and received a positive reply today.

all you have to do is enable:

Differential Fuel Pressure

define what amount you wish to create an action on a large X Y table.

define what action (ignition (best IMO, fuel, wastegate etc) and you are there.

this is a big deal.

WTG ViPEC

howard

 

howard how exactly did you go about doing this? best i can find is setting up an RPM or MAP limit table with MAP vs FP Diff axes.

how is everything else coming along though mate?

Brad.

 

to set up a the differential fuel pressure failsafe using ignition as the save:

Ignition
Ignition Corrections
enable Dual Ignition Table
Dual IgnitionFuel table
table 2 mode 'dual table"
table activation "DI#2"
Dual Ignition Table
define axis
X axis is RPM
Y axis is Differential Fuel Pressure

enter whatever ignition you wish, maybe zero, and you are set.

i note that there appears to be many other items you can enable that could trigger table two, for instance Boost Delta. there is a long list from which to choose.

now that the holidays are thru i will be heading up to Beyond Redline w 10 additional gallons of water meth and we will start generating data.

here's what differential fuel pressure looked like in early Dec:



in this instance my "Differential" fuel pressure varied 2 psi between -7 psi MGP and +4.2 psi MGP. i am thinking about setting it at 4 psi but will consult w Luke.

it appears there are loads of settings that can get you to Ignition Table Two/Failsafe.

howard

 

howard,

after following your instructions i think i have found a better way (IMO) to do this is; rather than waste the dual IGN table (which seems like its meant for swapping between race fuel pump fuel etc) use the 4D and 5D IGN (correction) tables.
heres how mine will be setup:

ignition
ignition corrections
4D Ign Table
4D Ign Mode>ON
Table Activation>Always On***
4D Ign table
Axis Setup

I then set my horizontal axis as MAP; and the vertical axis as differential fuel pressure.

the two issues that this fixes is:
1. table is always active; and
2. you can still have two ignition maps.

also, you can make more of these (depending on table allocation) as there is a 5D table that can be setup in exactly the same way but for another parameter like for example, EGT, you could set up the table as EGT vs MAP etc, and if you still want more than the dual IGN table can be setup as a 6D table.

***instead of having hte table "always on" you can set it up to come on at a certain boost pressure by using a virtual auxillary there are three of these and all you need to do is select whichever one you have free and configure it to turn on at "x" kPa, or alternatively if you wish to do this but have no free virtual aux outs you can just configure a normal aux out as a low llevel output and set it up exactly the same.

Brad.

 

good ideas Brad. i will bet there's a lot more capability to be discovered.

hc

 

nice to see someone here with a vipec on there rex , it is really a good unit , i have tuned a few my self , if you do any vids would you post them up thanks.

 

as you may know the car is at Beyond Redline in Green Bay, Wi approx 90 miles from me. Luke Stubbs is doing his stuff on the map. he works on it on and off.

he called today to report he had it to the point where he had run it to 7400 off the spring (max boost was 15.3) and all seemed well.... well isn't necessarily tuned out of course. i believe he said it made 380-390 SAE.

i think he had both the pre turbo and post turbo injectors enabled. he has yet to check the plugs and made two runs around that boost level. prior to the two runs it has been just getting it running correctly.

i will be spending this Friday at Beyond Redline and we hope to learn a lot more very soon.


howard

 

since Luke has completed a lot of the initial tuning i was with him today at Beyond Redline and we did 25 4th gear runs off the spring... (boost control off).

needless to say i have a ton of data to sift thru and won't get it done tonight.

i have comparative data from Jan 16, 2012 when i was running straight meth as AI injectant. same wastegate spring but somewhat different manifold.

i now run a 50/50 combo of water meth. some preturbo, most (today) from the elbow position.

hp was very close. (within 5). that did surprise me as water does have a hp cost. around 390 SAE at 15/16 psi. this is the same power i made at that boost level a year ago. i made 514 at 24/25 later during that session...

i will get into the details and post some charts/logs etc.


stay tuned. i do plan to be repeat next week and we will be turning on the boost control.

Howard

 

just an FYI NEW V88 for sale...

$1650 a steal

Racing classifieds 3rd Gen

obviously suggest you do your due diligence on the seller etc but it is worth a look. i have zero affiliation other than loving the ECU..

Howard

 

Howard thats great news! look forward to seeing lots of logs and data

Brad.

 

update:

the snow cleared Wisconsin a bit later than usual and with it the salt from the roads so i retrieved my car from Beyond Redline about a month ago. the plan was to put a few road miles on it and clean up a few items before going back to the dyno..

i have been doing some third gear roll-on pulls and am very impressed w the mid-range power at low boost levels. in 3rd gear i am on the edge of adhesion at around 46% throttle. that w 295 tires at 27 psi.... the nose raises up a bit and the rear hunkers down. this is off the wastegate spring at around 13/14.

i now have the internal knock system working and it has proved very interesting. i am using a new style Bosch knock sensor from the RX8 and i have one in each rotor housing. one of the (many) reasons i chose the V88 was it's internal knock system. it is tune-able, active and has two channels so both rotors can be logged.

you first define knock.... knock is a frequency and it varies w all motors. the 2 rotor rotary resonates around 4500 CPS (Hz) according to Mazda. (thanks for that info ARGHX). once you pick the frequency you select a response. the V88 can retard timing, cut fuel or turn on your headlights if you wish.

i have always held the stock knock sensor in high regard and have a familiarity with the readings. the current challenge is to get comfortable w the new system readings... all it takes is some miles and logs. i will then think about enabling the response. ATM, i am just generating data.

and the problem has been i have been encountering knock near the end of my pulls. it is quite clear from the log set forth below.

given this has happened consistently during the last month, i have been richening the fuel map and decreasing timing. to the point where the knock still appears where it just shouldn't.

last week i decided that i should check the AI system carefully.

my setup uses fuel injectors to deliver the W/M. i datalog them and the log shows they are doing just what they are supposed to according to the separate fuel map for them. you can see the duty cycle plot which is the seventh window (down).

there they are, coming on with boost.

but of course that is no guarantee of FLOW.

i first pressured up the MAP sensor to check that my AI Alkycontrol pump was going on. yes on the pump.

i then tested each of the two AI fuel injectors. the V88 has an ability to test... yes, you can hear the injector clicking.... both of them.

i then pulled off the air cleaner and flipped it upside down. one of the two AI injectors is in the air cleaner/pre-turbo.

i started the AI pump, turned on the fuel injector all set to see a big spray.

nothing.

i did the same thing w the AI injector in the elbow.... almost nothing.

off the injectors went to FuelInjectorConnection overnight. the following afternoon Jon Banner called and confirmed that the injectors were corroded and effectively plugged.

this was not totally a surprise. there have been a number of cautionary statements re using Fuel Injectors for AI due to potential degradation.

i had used them a few years ago hooked in parallel to my secondary injectors run by my Power FC. they worked fine. i had also for a few years used solenoids (FJO) and they worked fine.

the difference here was i am now using water and meth whereas previously i was using just meth. apparently the additional hydrogen in the water may, repeat may, be a game changer.

the injectors had been exposed to the water meth for about 4 months. any corrosion within a fuel injector is deadly. fuel injectors are precise delivery systems and any change in the ball and seat and that precision disappears perhaps taking a motor along.

i looked in to keeping my setup w a new pair of injectors and purging it after AI use and at that point things started to look a bit ridiculous. (even for me).

the lightbulb finally illuminated and i decided enough of this i am going back to what i ran for 5 trouble free 500 hp years. i called my old friend Julio Don at Alkycontrol and next tuesday one of his systems will hit the mail. i am running his pump in my current system as i consider it to be the best.

i will run, initially, an M10 and an M15 nozzle in the pipe between the IC and elbow. i will run W/M. all should be up and running by the end of next week. i will pick up an assortment of jets as i may need to adjust deliverability.

i am continuing to get acquainted w the V88 and it is every bit as good as i thought it might be when i bought it... even more so.

here's a page from the last run before getting back to the Alkycontrol setup. notice the two plots as to knock, front and rear. other data tidbits can be seen on the right.

BTW, my engine is fine and gaining compression as the miles go by. i will be back on the dyno as soon as my knock disappears.




howard

 

Howard,

First off, great to see an update from you re the FD, V88, and Luke. Not so much it would seem as with the injectors controlling the new W/M inj duties. It has been a while so please forgive me, but did u end up running FFE's new trigger wheel? And if so have you noticed any results whether they be good or bad?

Also, I like the switch back to alkycontrol, like u said running trouble free for 5 yrs @ 500hp is hard to argue. Although, having the V88 running the inj for the AI was a really really slick setup and wished it had worked out. I did have a question about the 2 nozzles you will en corporate. You had said earlier in ur turbo comparison thread you wanted to explore the benefits of injecting pre-turbo, an idea that I think is far more beneficial to a turbo setup than some may know as of yet. My question is whether u will keep that same strategy as u didn't mention if one of the nozzles would end up there in ur updated post?

In any case great to see your project moving in the right direction and I hope to see the new data in ur knock logs when the time comes.

Have a great memorial day weekend and take care.

-Cory

 

"did u end up running FFE's new trigger wheel? And if so have you noticed any results whether they be good or bad?"

yes i am running their 36 tooth wheel w a Hall sensor. once zeroed to TDC it has worked fine. it is evident from looking at their products that they are well engineered. i run their rails also.

i am going to put the injectors and pre turbo on the shelf for now. i need to get the car on the track, especially the Texas Mile in late Oct.

Bosch is coming out w some new injectors that will work w E85 in approx a month. i may eventually end up re-installing my setup and run E85 as injectant.

i have another idea as well but for now it is get rolling.

more data, a lot more to come.

hc

 

"Bosch is coming out w some new injectors that will work w E85 in approx a month. i may eventually end up re-installing my setup and run E85 as injectant"

Aren't all the ID injectors just the Bosch EV's rebranded? I thought ID's were good to go for E85. The reason I ask is because I know ur running the EV injectors, I had no idea they weren't dual fuel capable....

I have pretty much committed to making the E85 switch myself, I like the benefits of what E85 can do for rotaries, even if u need 30% more of it.

In response to shelving pre turbo AI, I'm really bummed to hear about this as I was really excited to see the results in ur turbo comparison thread when it was running by itself compared to when you would only inject post intercooler. The Texas mile does present a decent reason for you not having time tho.

GL out there Howard, looking forward to updates.

-Cory

BTW,

How is the T56 working out for you? I haven't heard much from you about how it changes the everyday driving mechanics of the ole FD.

 

during my lengthy conversation w Jon Banner at FIC we discussed options. he indicated that Bosch was coming out w an injector that was long term durable w E85. since i am not about to wait any longer to get things together i didn't pay too much attention but i do recall asking a follow up on his comment.... i believe he was referring to the 2000 cc injector. i will call him tuesday and share what i find.

i may re-visit the setup i had using E85 as i am interested in the data pre turbo etc. this will only happen after i get a few things accomplished.

as to E85... after we tune out on gas and AI i plan to do the same w E85. i will then install a FFS and intend to run 50/50 gas & E85 for the Tex Mile. the benefits of E85 are not linear and decrease as you move towards 100%. a combo of E85 and gas works nicely as you don't need as much injector capacity, get lots of BTUs from gas and cooling from the ethanol.

Luke tuned a Genesis turbo 4 coupe (GT3076) to 420 rw on pump and AI. he then drained the gas tank and added E60 (winter blend for Green Bay) so as to achieve a 50/50 mix. the motor made 570! that was w half E60 and half pumpgas....... that's a WOW in my book.

my V88 can read a FFS and interpolate between a gas and E85 map.

as to the T56.... love it. same Quartermaster 2000 pound double disc unsprung clutch. i love the ratios and it will be perfect for the Mile as well as road racing.



howard

 

Howard,

In response to your post about the new Bosch injector, this is exciting news. I'm interested to hear the details of your findings when they become available. One thing i noticed you specifically said was they would be "long term durable". Is this to mean that other injectors say the Injector Dynamics or Bosch EV series aren't?

If you have time to get things re-fixtured after tuning out on pump, utilizing pre-turbo AI that would be wonderful. If you happen to be able to do it with both pump and E85 that would be nothing short of well, fap worthy. I have become a data junkie since following in your concept of developing a better rotary via Information Feedback.

"50/50 gas & E85" Now, I'm new to the whole E85 world and what not, but is this as simple as putting 5 gal of 93 in then putting 5 gal of E85 in? I noted that you said Luke used E60 (winter blend) in the turbo'd Genesis (results where a definite WOW). Is this something you can buy by i suppose a 55gal drum where its not available in the southern states? is it just a lower content of ethanol? Data is needed.

As to the V88. I'm really starting to pitch a tent over this ECU. The features for the price really make it a strong contender. How is the Technical support aspect of ViPec? here in Kansas City there aren't really any rotary shops that specialize in tuning out single turbo setups, so i find myself having to enter into self teaching for the tuning process. That or travel to Chicago/Indiana/Minnesota/Wisconsin/Texas you name it I've thought about it.

When you say the V88 can interpolate between the 93 and E85 map i assume this is because of the flex fuel sensor? Also this relates to my earlier question. Does the V88 do this no matter what amount of either fuel is in the tank? if you could lay out a general scenario if this isn't the case that'd be great.

In regards to the T56, can u spell out a general $ amount one would be looking at for the entire setup on the 13B (T,RE,REW)? I understand its all about where you find the actual T56 for that cost. So for simplicity sake we'll just say what it costs after you have the tranny, to shifting it on the road.

As always, looking forward to your input.

-Cory

 

"Is this to mean that other injectors say the Injector Dynamics or Bosch EV series aren't?"

i haven't had a chance to follow up on this but i will. the reference was to the 2000 cc injector and to alcohol.

"I noted that you said Luke used E60 (winter blend)"

since ethanol has cold start problems E85 becomes E60 in northern parts of the U S during winter. since it was winter Luke just used what was available at the pump in Green Bay which was E60. E60 is just a lower content of ethanol mixed w gasoline.

"features for the price"

while the V88 is a bit more money than the V44 when you consider all the additional features the price is a bargain. the internal knock system is alone worth the money.

i rate ViPEC customer service A.

if i have a question i email ViPEC and normally receive a the answer within 24 hours... if my contact doesn't have the best answer he hands it off and i hear from the proper source. generally he has the answer.

ViPEC and Link also have active forums and often the answer is a search away.

when i have full confidence in my map i will make it available. also, Luke at Beyond Redline is so good that a trip to Green Bay would be the most economical thing you could do viewed long term.

"V88 can interpolate between the 93 and E85 map"

yes.

w the aid of the FFS, the V88 can take the fuel data and relate it to a gas and E85 map and find the proper balance point between the two. it also will report the exact mix in your tank as a gauge or line item in the properties list. many of the V88 features are quite forward looking and the updating process continues w new software program additions.

"In regards to the T56"

this isn't the section for trans discussions. i suggest you visit the 3rd Gen Section and search for my thread:

"FD Transmission Solution for 500+ hp."

lots more to follow shortly as we start to get our arms around the V88.

Howard

 

Howard! before you go too far wit hripping out your PWM fed AI setup, why not just change over to fixed size nozzles (i guess the same size in pre and post turbo positions) but use just a normal boost control solenoid as a gate valve to the nozzle, this is similar to what i have done on my setup, but without the PWM signal. i just used 2 nitrous solenoids and powered them through a relay each, with the ECU switching the relay. However, the ECU can happily drive your typical EBC solenoid at x duty cycle so the easy thing would be to plumb your pump to the com port of two solenoids, put a pipe plug (typically theyre just a 1/8NPT port) in the normally open ports and plumb the normally closed ports up to your nozzles. ideally i would try to situate the solenoid as close to the nozzle as possible though. just a thought if you have the time and space to have a play around with it, you would be abel to keep the PWM map this way.

good to see progress nonetheless, i'll pm you for more detail on the knock sensors
Brad.

 

i am fast concluding that the "V" in ViPEC is for LOVE.

Love because it can deliver anything i want and more.

i will be posting lots of screen-saves as i move ahead...

i made an initial run w my Alkycontrol AI system yesterday (3rd gear on the road). i knew it would be pig rich before the run but needed to establish a base from which to re-tune for the right AFR.

i am running 25% water and 75% methanol thru two nozzles... an M10 630 CC/Min and an M15 945 CC/Min. flow rates are at 100 psi net of boost.

water is a part of the equation for two reasons.... water has 8087 cooling BTUs per gallon V (all) gasoline at 900 or methanol at 3340. water doesn't cool the charge air but does its thing in the combustion chamber. you can see a small amount of water goes a long way as to delivering cooling BTUs.

i said the water is there for two reasons... methanol may be a bit edgy at some fraction when mixed w gas. i think a portion of water in the combustion chamber may help. "may" i have a suspicion that a 75/25 mix may be the ultimate AI ratio.

let's get into the data from the run...





capture one is boost threshold.

3rd gear, roll into the throttle just to get the AI working... around 31% throttle. boost off the spring. the objective of this pull is just to get the AI working and start to adjust the fuel map.

RPM 3770

Boost zero

AFR 14

AN V7 (AI system pressure // ALL my Pressure readings w the exception of boost are absolute so you need to subtract 14.7 to get to the pressure we use... Gauge pressure) so the reading is 16.3 minus 14.7 or pretty much zero) AI pump is off at this point.

AN V11 191 F this is the charge air temp between the turbo and intercooler as measured by a Type K thermocouple (think EGT) accurate to the degree and mS.

AN V10 53 F charge air temperature after the intercooler at the stock FD location under the UIM as measured by a Type K thermocouple.

AN V6 EGT pre turbo 1193F rear rotor, front not currently working

TP 31% throttle position sensor



capture two

start of AI delivery

about 100 rpm later w around 3 psi of boost we see 30 psi AI pressure, minus the 14.7 is about 15 psi gauge pressure... timing has dropped (see ignition angle on left) from 23.5 to 19.1 and EGT has risen from 1193 to 1240.



capture three

top of the run boostwise at 13.6 psi

RPM 4587

Boost 13.6

AFR 10.1 pig rich untuned for the meth at this point

AN V7 AI pressure 142.5 absolute, 127.8 gauge pressure (this is not full pressure BTW)

AN V11 258 F charge air from turbo.... at higher boost expect over 300

AN V10 89 F charge air at stock FD location

AN V6 EGT 1202F

Throttle 36.4%

at this point the engine was blubbering rich.

and now it gets really fun. i went thru this process in 2004 w my Alkycontrol system w the M10 and M15 nozzles.

the process, as most know, simply is the removal of base fuel umtil the desired AFR is attained.
back in the stone ages of 2004 the hot setup was to have an Excel program and do a bunch of cutting and pasting.

now it is as simple as click on the "Mixture Map."



each cell has the average AFR from the log, the target AFR that is set by the user, the number of samples and the amount of variance from the desired target.

more data after making the adjustments. no cut and paste... just a click and the fuel map is ready to rip

another AFR tuning option is the"Quick Tune." after turning it on you go for a drive and as you post data in each cell the V88 will automatically tune the fuel. it would be perfect on a load cell dyno where you can work your way thru the load cells. this doesn't quite work on the highway... trying to center on a cell under boost you would be mowing lots of people down. it does work fine in vacuum.

howard

 

a combo of rain and building 4 motors ATM delayed run two a couple of days. the primary diff was a bit leaner fuel map and i also did a bit in 4th gear...

here's a capture of the top of the run boost-wise:



whereas the engine was blubbering during the prior day's run it is now firing cleanly yet still way too rich. even though the boost is high 13s the car is flying at high 30s% throttle. it will be a handful at full throttle just off the wastegate spring at around mid 11 AFR.

the AI pressure, listed as AN 7 GP Pressure, is 143 psi. since it is absolute, remove 14.7 and remove the boost, 14 to get net pressure of 114. the square root is 1.069. nozzles pass 1575 CC/Min at 100 so i am getting 1683 CC/Min into the motor. since i am 25% water and 75% meth:

420 CC/Min water
1263 CC/Min Methanol

i am liking the V88 internal knock system.... notice almost flatline knock until boost and then a small number in boost. what i like is that it seems able to report very small quantities of knock. sneaking up on knock is key.

notice temp of the air exiting the BW S363... 286 degrees F. IAT at the stock UIM location is 91 F.

here's the end of the run in fourth...



the interesting thing to me is that it appears that the charge air temp exiting the turbo rises cumulatively. while the boost is 13.1 V 14 in the preceding capture the temp is now 321F!

also of note to me is how well the Alkycontrol AI system manages output w changing MAP. notice the pressure change between 3rd and fourth.

and now the fun part... time to call in the Mixture Map and do some tuning...



it looks like i am rich by over a point where it counts. this is getting interesting.

stay tuned, while i tune.

howard

 

After checking out your posts / screenshots it had me searching my Link software on availability of the mixture map. Unfortunately the Link software does not have it. Downloaded the ViPec software, loaded up my basemap, and my most recent Log file ... VIOLA! ... now I get to use the mixture map and the easy double-click adjustments. Granite after the corrections are made I have to save / export the map and import it into the Link software, but it's amazingly helpful (especially for those like myself who are wet behind the ears tuning).

 

we were able to spend a day on the rollers and it proved to be fruitful. i now have a Flex Fuel Sensor (FFS) in my system w a bunch of the usual fuel upgrades... 8800 CC of injector, the Walbro E85 pump being run by my beloved Kenne Bell Boost A Pump, dash 8 fuel lines etc.

all seems to be well. we ran on straight E85 yesterday and i was blown away by how much midrange power the motor made.... 402 at 5000! 448 at 5500! the dyno lost RPM signal where the sheet ends but we ran most pulls to around 8800.

i was running my GT4094r at around 25- 26 psi. we made 575 which is about right for that boost. the 4094 makes max air at 29 psi which after we shuffle a few things we will visit.





i am entered in the Texas Mile in late Oct.

MUCH THANKS to LUKE STUBBS at BEYOND REDLINE FOR HIS TRULY AMAZING TUNING ABILITIES

LOVE THE V88! still scratching the surface and having a ball.

howard