souroull

i hate it when people are messing around with other people's businesses, get your self in that guy's shoes for christ sake. this guy runs a company doing an awsome job IMO and all you do is jump in comparing it with a 10k kit, and bashing it without even taking a look at it, and what for? just for the heck of it? i dont get it!. over 1000 potential buyers saw this threat, imagine your self in his shoes, give the guy a brake here.
I'LL BUY YOUR KIT! PERIOD

souroull

why doesnt any of you even TRY to make a SIMILAR kit, or look into how these things are made, how much effort it takes and all... and try to sell it.... then check your self in the mirror when a goddamn kid (thats an example) or something is bashing it around, just for the hell of it, damn you people, be civilised for a change
well i think i'd done here
i had to get this off me sorry

evot23

iTrader: (17)

uh...I don't think I was ever bashing it and I think its fair to make comparisons to what has been done. Some people think it sucks, some don't.

This is the forum, ideas are shared, criticized, praised, ridiculed, ignored. You post here and you are subject to it.

If you plan on being here much at all I suggest you get used to it and get it off your chest somewhere else.

If a guy says he doesn't like the way it opens...so be it...its an opinion. If the guy selling the product can't handle that (which he has already proven he CAN) then he won't be in business very long...at least not with us.

I say a group buy would be awesome and many of us who posted on this thread would be in on it.

Civilized enough for you?

deft_spyder

like i said, its not for everyone ... and yeah, people who think that a 10 grand kit is nicer, well, probably should! that one ive seen is beautiful.

twin turbo... yes, that is actually my spyder in the video, thank you for the compliments.

thought you guys might like to know the rx7 VLS is in full production now... the assembly line was set up last week. I'll of course announce the release on the mailing list. You can sign up for the mailing list on the site, www.importprecision.com.

evot23

iTrader: (17)

I'm on the mailing list.

TJI

will anyone be interested in group buy ??

I want this door for my last exterior project

evot23

iTrader: (17)

sourroull said he'd buy the kit...of course, he'll need an FD first. Then again he may TRY to make a SIMILAR kit.

deft_spyder

We dont really do group buys. every gb ive ever seen is a circus, and I'm really just way too busy to deal with it. I prefer to handle this the same way as the other VLS's.

Not sure if you guys saw, but KAZE-aero now has 2 VLS equipped cars on the front page of their site... the 2 they showed off at the Tokyo Auto salon. yay.

v8guy427

Whens somebody gonna make some lambo doors for us poor FC guys

-Chris

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Ok...I guess now is as good as time as ever...so here goes

First, I wanna clarify somethin (since credibility is everything). I had posted a *while* back on the decah doors...and how they were the best. I'm not contradicting what I said...the decah kit *was* the best available at the time (as compared to autolock, the ebay stuff, etc) And I've had SEVERAL months' experience w/ the decah doors now on my friend's celica, and as the pioneers for a bolt on kit, I gotta say, it's not bad at all. But as expl0d once said, the doors *do* eventually sag. The shocks on them are no where nearly strong enough to withstand the wear and tear, as well as the sheer weight of the doors...my friend had to have his doors adjusted a cpl times already, and had to replace the shocks. that, and the hinge system itself is somewhat fragile...if it's not opened in the proper way, it'll mess up the hinge pretty bad. so would I get those on my FD, absolutely not. so onto the next....

A cpl of people have asked about the door kit from verticaldoors.com I also have a lot of experience w/ those doors, because I actually have them on my FD (ill get into that in a sec) but I chose to be smart this time and wait till the entire scene unfolds, see who exactly is making what kit, the pros and cons for each, then make my decision to get one, get some experience w/ it, THEN talk about it. didnt wanna jump the gun like i did w/ the decah kit

now, keeping in mind that im not affiliated w/ decah, verticaldoors.com, or importprecision.com (which imma just call VLS from now on), i think there are a cpl important facts that have been left out of these threads that need light shed onto them before any fellow FD owners go and purchase anything

-the VLS kit is very nice indeed...but the whole opening like stock and vertically mechanism that is interchangeable via a simple latch screams "prone to failure" or "weak spot" in my mind. this isn't an accusation, just a major concern I'd hope deftspyder can clarify...cuz if you see the actual hinge system for yourself (any hinge system for that matter), you'll see how the more motion it allows, the more fragile it is, making it more prone to failure. coupled w/ that is my concern on how the door can be opened vertically at a variety of angles based on a setting, which is a feature of the VLS kit....again, i see that as a great design for show, but in practical everday use, that must leave a major point of vulnerability (laws of physics: greater flexibility comes only at the expense of being more fragile. think of your sholder joint. you can move it all sorts of directions...it's VERY flexible. but that's also why it's so easy to disclocate, vs. say your elbow, where it's only a single pivot motion in one plane)

-the verticaldoors.com kit has some major advantages in my opinion....first, the doors go up by themselves. that's right...you dont open out then push up. the decah and VLS kits must be *pushed up* are as such since the shocks initially aren't strong enough to raise the doors..they must be assisted by you pushing them up. that again is a point of vulnerability...because w/ use, it's those shocks that will go bad. the less you help, the more they work, the more likely they'll fail (causing the sag you heard about from decah). the verticaldoors.com kit has incredibly strong shocks and a hinge system that once you push the door outward, the shocks take over and lift the door all the way up. (that's actually a major point that had me sold) that, and (2) the doors open as close to straight up as is physically possible. my own opinion is i dont like the VLS doors opening out so wide...they look like the car's got wings. i like the doors to go practically straight up, only slighly angled out, giving the car a swept-back look...

-the other major point (and in fact is the biggest point) of why i got the verticaldoors.com kit over the VLS is issues closing the door. here's the deal. all these kits use the stock door securing lock mechanism. this is VERY important for 2 reasons: 1) it's soo much cheaper for us, the customers, since changing that in any way would be a MAJOR financial endeavor (deftspyder has already mentioned that) and 2) it's a safety inspection issue. in many places in the US (if not all), messing w/ the stock locking/securing mechanism of the doors will not allow you to pass the safety inspection, not to mention having the door function in a totally diff way by not opening outward at all would present a major issue w/ the DMV and insurance, who would all say the door wasn't crash tested in that manner. sure, it sits the same way as stock when closed, but since you fiddled w/ the closing/locking mechanism, they have a fair claim (or at least arguable)... (ive actually spoken w/ them about this, and they claim that it could be prone to failure or could cause the door to open prematurely in a crash etc...all speculation, which the only way to prove otherwise would be to crash test several units modified in the same way lol....so yea..stock locking mechanism it is)

so back to my point...like I said earlier..i waited a while to buy, install, play w/, and THEN talk about this lambo door thing because i wanted to make sure the next time i said anything it wasn't me jumping the gun. and thank God, cuz it payed off.

i'm obviously working on building a show car (side note: it's not all show and no go...she'll see track time as well believe it or not). so naturally, i have a couple of agreements and understandings w/ diff vendors/shops...and they know about me getting the vertical doors. after SEMA, they all were blowin up my celly, cuz it turns out I had the only perfectly functioning vertical door kit. what do i mean? the car at SEMA w/ VLS, as well as the decah cars (pretty much all vertical door FDs up to this point) have had major problems getting the doors to consistantly (and i stress CONSISTANTLY) close properly. the doors will come down, and as you push them inward to lock, they won't line up perfectly on the door lock mechanism. this was verified MANY TIMES by many MANY diff shops and vendors of RX7 products...and since the ones I had an agreement w/ knew my kit shuts perfectly, everyone wanted to know which kit it was, and how i got it to close properly...

to make a long story short, the guy working on my car (body work and the doors) is one of the BEST body guys period. Crispy on the forum can easily testify to this...cuz he's had first hand expeirence w/ this shop too. in fact, it's the only shop that PFS dealt w/ for about a decade...many dealerships work w/, and even Pettit knows this guy and vouches for him. so it's obvious his work is above par, and then some (for you DC area guys, the shop is called Mr Spoiler, it's in Manassas, VA...ask for Dan. the website is mrspoiler.com. you'll see many cars on his site that won awards in shows and were featured in magazines, including two RX7s)

I got the verticaldoors.com kit, and he put it on my car, but it wasn't "perfect enough" for him haha... so basically he actually made a template of how it should be, sent it back, verticaldoors.com modified it, using my template, Dan modified it some more, sent it back, and then i finally got the new (and final) kit that I now have. Dan didn't mind this, since he knows the guy from veticaldoors.com, they're old buds... plus Dan only uses the best materials and what not, and he was very impressed w/ the verticaldoors.com hinges (as was i). in the meantime, only one other FD got the final modified door kit (that came off my car), and that's the FD that's practically all carbon fiber...i forget who's car it is...i think it was at a cpl shows, mita been SEMA, but I can't remember right now) but he's runnin the verticaldoors.com kit, and he's got the only other FD w/ perfectly closing doors, CONSISTANTLY. this was also verified by diff shops and vendors.

the ONLY drawbacks to the verticaldoors.com kit (gotta be fair here) is that you can't open them stock like the VLS kit, but I can deal w/ that, granted my FD isn't a daily driver, and I dont like the point of vulnerability... The other drawback is because the shocks are so strong, it does take some effort to close the doors..more than say the VLS or decah. but to me, i dont mind that one bit, because the stiffer the doors are, the more stable and hence "durable" i guess you can say the doors are. (again, flexibility vs. strength)

given all this, that's the reason why the verticaldoors.com kit is a lil more expensive, since it's a very strong, stable kit, the only one that raises the door itself, and that lines up properly to close correctly, CONSISTANTLY. hence, why I went w/ that kit. you only get what you pay for...

PS...deftspyder, straight up, i didnt write anything in a manner to purposefully offend you or diss your product. rather, this was my honest opinon and observation, which I'm entitled to, just as you are of yours. If I was wrong about anything, please feel free to correct me. I think we're all looking for the same thing here. Oh and just for the record, the reason why decah isn't and CANT sue verticaldoors.com is because the guy from verticaldoors.com basically bought a decah kit, looked at it, said "this is garbage" but understood the mechanism decah was using..cuz remember, decah was the pioneer of this. verticaldoors.com improved on the idea, modified it a lot to work specifically for the FD, and made improvements, such as including grease fittings which decah doesn't include (hence the need to lubricate and adjust the doors often on the decah kits), better material, stronger shocks and hinges, the doors lifting by themselves, etc. There's nothing at all wrong w/ doing that. In fact, that's how business is conducted every day. Example: we all love Chuck of RotaryExtreme, who aside from the stuff he makes himself, he takes original body kits, replicates them, but his are even higher quality!

before anyone asks...i dont have pics yet. i will very soon. my car's in the shop for some final touches on the body work....and once it comes (in about a week or so) ill post some pics. anyone in the DC area who wants to get a first-hand look at it, you're more than welcome to

PPS: sorry for such a long post...but I hope you guys find it worthwhile and that it helps some

evot23

iTrader: (17)

A very interesting post and well organized. Thank you for the time you spent in posting it. I would like to see some pics, even some comments by Deft.

You are right, we are all looking for the best thing and the best that we can afford. I'm sure all kits have their flaws.

Thanks for all the info, I'm reading and watching closely cause that's a lot of money to spend on doors.

When you get pics please post or email me them.

You have been very informative and helpful and it is greatly appreciated. That goes for everyone who has posted.

MakoDHardie

I subscribed to this thread a long time ago and I usually just delete the reply notification emails that I get, but I'm glad I clicked on the one from this morning. FDNewbie, that's one of those great, informative posts that I like to see when I'm browsing through threads looking for information. Please post your pictures when you get your car back from the shop. I would be very interested in checking out what's been done.

deft_spyder

It's saturday, so I'm not going to write a very long dissertation on your post, but you've got a few things wrong, and a few things are just guesses, so I'll fill you in.

1. The VLS mechanism for opening both ways is as solid as hell. We have had it on daily drivers for 3 years now and have never had a failure. We even had a kid hang from the door with no problem at all while it was UP at a car show!! (we told the kit to get down asap, but that certainly says something)... if you have been following the vls development you may have seen one guys video taking a drive with the doors up.... not reccomended, but I can tell you... its 15 pounds of solid CNC cut steel. I have had numerous design engineers describe the kit as "overbuilt" because of our use of metal waaay stronger than we need.

But as far as guessing (and it is just guessing) what might be a "weak spot" on the VLS vs another kit.... that's like saying the tower is a battleships weakness compared to a patrol boat that has few.... just not the same league at all.

Just know that although the decah and vertical doors kits are almost identical, when you are talking VLS it is a whole different beast... when you can feel the weight and rigidity of a VLS first hand you'll know.

2. The doors go up themselves? Well, we could do this by putting too much air in the shock.... but instead we went with exactly thew weight of the door. I personally dont want my doors flying up... and I can out my doors up with 1 finger... not a problem. Our shock is custom made by ACE controls in Germany, rated at 500,000 compressions and 10 years on the seals.

The problem with a shock that raises your door by itself is that its over pressured... this means that when you try to close it, now your hinge is taking all the weight of the door, PLUS the extra weight on the shock. This causes all sorts of stress on the hinge.

3. Not being ablse to opens both ways as a "feature". I' dont think so. I believe that custom work should not come at a loss to functionality... unfortunately, kits that rotate in place, overlap the fender (no widebodies possible) and make you turn sideways to enter just arent keeping up to maintaining the proper use of the car. Also, what do you do for your fixit ticket.... VLS users just flip the lever...

4. "Issues closing the door". This one os waaay out there. I have no idea where you are getting your information on this one. First, as far as the safety inspection... if i rolled up to the dmv with my VLS in valet mode, they would never know I had it modded... its is completely invisible from the outside... completely stealth.

Let me get this straight for you: WE USE THE STOCK LATCHING MECHANISM... WE DO NOT CHANGE IT AT ALL. YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG ON THIS POINT.

It is clear to me at this point that you have little to no personal experience with the VLS sytem, just by some of the guesses and incorrect information presented.

You have NOT spoken with US about this, because that person would be ME... and I'd never lie about my own product, especially when it make me look bad.

5. That's completely wrong about our SEMA RX7 car (cover of HCI magazine last month)... it operates great.... I know, I've used it myself. Where you are getting information about this I don't know. The door lines up just fine. Now if someone who didn't know what they were doing tried it, then maybe.... but anyone who knows anything would do it right every time. How do I know this... well it's been on my daily driver for about 7 months... the final version of the VLS. Never have I had a problem.

6. I'm suprised that your body guy had to modify your kit to fit... that sucks. I can assure you that VLS is made specifically for the car, with no rolling of the fenders, no welding, drilling, etc. No one should have to mangle their fenders like that. Good to see your body guy got it to work, I hope that wasn't too expensive, or he did it for free.... because normally thats hella expensive. i think it should have worked out of the box.

7. Towards the end here you're talking about this "point of vulnerability" like it's a fact now... you do remember it's a guess, and you have no first hand knowledge, right?

8. Yes, being locked into vertical is a big drawback, but dont forget that our kit also raises the door MUCH higher. That is why we arc out a little. It is because the a-pillar is in the way. If we left the door in front of the passenger compartment (you know, where people need to get in) that would cause all sorts of problems.... no doubt your familiar with the sideways tago you have to do to get in... ours gets it completely up and out of the way. That means no loss of functionality, no turning sideways to get in, and no falling into your seat. I am 6/5, 245 pounds... and I get in just fine.

Notice how much of through the car you can see:



On a decah/vertical doors (pretty much identical) or autolock kit, it looks like this:



I dont have a decah picture from the side, I can never seem to find that angle online. But now you can understand why we come out... its because we want to get in! Notice the distance fromt he ground to the door, the top of the door to the ground, but most importantly, the bototm right of the door to the right side of the passenger compartment... while the VLS is far, the other is actually in negative numbers.

Being able to get into my car is important to me.

9. More expensive... yeah, and I hope your body guy doesn't have to fix it/send it back each time.

10. I do not know the details of the lawsuit between decah and verticaldoors... I only know of it because the guys at Decah told me they were suing because the kit is a knockoff. but I do know that the two kits are amazingly similar... so much so that I and the designer of the VLS though a VD kit was a decah kit from a few feet away at SEMA. Only when we asked was it told it was a VD kit. You say that the guys at VD saw a decah kit and made there own, and I can believe that.

whew.

Well, there goes my saturday...lol. But it's worth it to make sure no misinformation gets out there. When people ask me what the biggest differences are between the VLS and the Decah/VD kit are, I tell them:

1. VLS opens both ways
2. VLS gets the door up higher, completely out of the passenger compartment (thus the signature angle).
3. VLS is 15 pounds of solid overbuilt CNC cut and zinc coated steel. Our shocks are custom made for the car by one of the best known shock engineering companies in the world
4. WARRANTY!! Lifetime limited against manufacturer defects.... you wont find that ANYWHERE. (so even if the guess about a "weak spot" were to be true... we will replace it 20-30-40-99 years from now!) Ask how many months you might get out of other kits on warranty.

OK, im going to a car meet... as always ask any questions you have and I'll get to them as soon as I can.

-Bill

(btw, there was a sweet RX7 for sale near my house yesterday... it had a sale sign up in the morning... it was gone that afternoon.... I asked the guy what happened, he said it lasted 2 hours and was bought...lol. Oh well, I like my car.)

MakoDHardie

Hardcore....

styxx8602

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

absolutey...which is why I have a problem w/ it...i didnt write my post to aim damage to deftspyder's kit, nor did I make any personal/direct/passionate statements... im tryin to stick to pros cons and opinions of the KIT. not me, and not you. so hopefully we can keep this at a professional level...no need to get edgy or confrontational

umm...not quite. you forget something *VERY* important. people normally tend to react to the TONE of what is said, versus what is ACTUALLY said. His tone def. owned me...but the reply... it's missing a cpl things

1) i didnt say the VLS is not solid. im not saying your kit is fragile. but im stating a FACT of physics...increased flexibility *must* be accompanied by increased fragility. if you can elaborate on how allowing multiple angles of motion won't compromise it's strength, that would be great...cuz im curious how that's possible

2) the decah and verticaldoors kits are FAR from idential. i "have" both to view, my friend's celica, and my car. ive seen the difference...it there is a LOT of difference. Even Dan from the body shop was pointing out how big a difference therel. Verticaldoors took the *concept*...not the hinges and just modified them lol
So as per your suggesstion, lets stick w/ first hand experience, and not assumptions...which you're not doing in this case. and hopefully we can quit the negative association towards the verticaldoors kit by always referring to it as "decah/verticaldoors" 2 diff things, 2 diff references

3) About the shocks being too strong... the problem w/ using shocks set for the exact weight of the car are two-fold: first, they're set at just that..the exact weight. soon enough - it's inevitable - they will wear out, and will sag. that's the very nature of things set at an exact tolerance. whether that's 1 month or 1 decade down the line, it'll happen. ok, so you warranty the shocks. that's cool, but I dont wanna deal w/ not being able to have my doors working while I send you my shocks for you to determine whether it is damaged under warranty or by abuse/improper installation, then wait for shocks to be re-sent to me, etc. im sure you get the picture. the second point is when we're talking about exotics...i personally feel the exotic auroa comes from the doors opening by themselves...not you having to lift them. it gets cumbersome having do always push 'em up. but that's my personal preference

while we're on this...if your shocks are strong enough for the *exact* weight of the doors, then how can some guy hang on the door while it's up and not bring it down?? and drive w/ them up?? either they're wayyy to strong so that they held the doors up despite all that downforce, or you have a means of locking the doors in the vertical position, or you need some explanation on this one...

the verticaldoors kit is definetly strong enough to be driven w/ them up, but you definetly cant hang on them lol...that'll bring them down. closing the door is desireable, ya know?

as for stresses on the hinge...the hinge is bulletproof. it's made to take the stress. and it's warrantied as well. id rather the hinge take the stress, which is what it's made to do, than just some shocks....

4) i agree w/ you, not being able to open the doors like stock is a feature where the VLS really shines over the verticaldoors.com kit...but that's if it matters to you. to me, it doesn't. but irregardless of all that, you still haven't addressed the issue of this "simple switch" or lever to interchange between stock and vertical.

and AGAIN...based on pure physics, imma have to argue, the simpler the mechanism, the more prone to failure/more vulnerable it will be, because you're trying to allow 2 very different motions in different planes based on a simple pivot or switch.

5) im sorry if you misunderstood me, i did NOT say your kit has safety issues because it uses a modified locking mechanism. what i said was (addressing the guys who want the RE doors) is to make THAT possible (opening purely vertical...no outward motion at all), you'd have to mess w/ the stock lock mechanism, which would then cause you dmv and safety issues. that's the RE doors, NOT your kit. hope that's clear...

5) the SEMA car...only reason i didnt specifically quote a person is because i initially wanted to wait till i got my car w/ pics to post...but i decided to post last nite..spur of the moment, and the shop was closed, so i couldn't contact any of the guys who saw the car at SEMA to get their permission to quote them (basic courtesy). but come monday, i'll do that, so we can set the record straight.

now if the crux of your argument centers around "Now if someone who didn't know what they were doing tried it, then maybe.... but anyone who knows anything would do it right every time"...well that worries me cuz then we're in a situation where you have to be taught how to open and close the doors in a specific manner (ie, the doors dont close by themselves properly..you gotta get a special technique goin)

6) thanx for your concern, no i didnt have to pay for all the modifications. like i said, verticaldoors made the kit, my car was the test car, Dan new that, he took it upon himself to perfect it for verticaldoors.com....so no i didnt suffer the financial burden. i was simply the test car =)

and i hope you're not insinuating that it's a crappy product *because* it had to be modified, cuz that's silly, since ALL custom products need testing and going back and forth. this is exactly what was happening in this case (remember, no kits for the FD were sold or even available until mine was complete for that reason)

7) as for how far up the doors open, it really depends on the car and the shape of the door...granted, overall your kit may provide more clearance on other cars (like that civic in the pic) and maybe even the FD..i can neither confirm nor deny that w/o going back to check out my car. BUT i will tell you this... extra room to get in and out of the FD is useless...since there's a sportscar gymnastics technique you have to use anyways to get into the car lol. im 6 foot, 220, and my FD is an R model, so the steering wheel doesn't telescope or move up and down. the stuff i have to go thru gettin in and out of my FD BEFORE the vertical doors lol... sportscar gymnastics I tell ya. trust me, extra door room wont help at all. it's extra room in the cockpit itself that's necessary...but that's a diff story haha

in fact, id say the way my doors are make it easier to get in and out of the car, cuz you automatically adjust your body position making it simple for getting in and out...kind of a sliding motion. but that's something you'd have to own an FD to know.

so again, i don't have any problems w/ clearance at all w/ the doors open. and the rubbing I was talking about was getting out of the car when the door is open outward and NOT vertically...ie like stock

lastly, for real Bill, I said it before, and I'm just repeating this. This isn't a "war" over who's kit is better, at least not for me. I'm not here to fight, I'm here as I said earlier to shed light onto potential issues that I don't believe were addressed in the thread since it was basically one-sided (only VLS reps)

Now, i think we can get a more balanced view, w/ pros and cons of each. While you stand to benefit a lot from making your kit look better, I profit nothing from either angle. I have no need to advertise, nor do I stand to profit from this in any way. But I'd like to think that, being the newbie I am, I can somehow help other FD owners make a more *informed* decision before they spend a cpl grand on such custom work. after all, that's what this forum is all about...helping each other out. and man...i know a rack of ppl ont his forum whom I've never even met have helped me tons. So for me, this is a small token of my appreciation, and my attempt to help some of them back. that's what I hope to ultimatley get outta this thread

MakoDHardie

This thread has just gotten interesting again. I'd like to see more on both kits, especially when closeup pictures are available.

deft_spyder

back again...

1. You insinuated that because we have a mechanism that allows for opening both was that this "screamed" a weak point. In fact, we have that function, and it works great because our engineering is top notch.

2. In my opinion, the decah/VD kits are very similar... so much so there's a lawsuit according to decah. They fooled me personally, and I guess at least 1 lawyer thinks so.

3. When I said the shocks were made for the exact weight of the car door, I didn't elaborate, and I guess I should have. When we do shocks, we make them JUST for that car. This is how.

ACE controls send us 3 adjustable pressure shocks. We let out air till all three are perfect... then we ship them back to Germany. They measure that pressure, take a mean, then ship them back. Then the final shock is created, sent back, and tested. They lift the door with barely any effort at all.

Now YOU might be worried about sag, but we're not. That's why we went with top quality shocks by one of the best companies in the world, rated for 500,000 compressions or 10 years. When you have top quality, you dont have to overfill to make up for eventual sag. And yes, there is a big difference between going bad in 1 month or 10 years... and it's called quality. Where are the VD shocks made? What is there warranty, and what is their rating for compression? How many years on the seal.... is there any warranty? Our shock would be about 35-40 bucks to relpace if say the owner took it off and drove over it. How much is it to replace yours?

Also, when a Decah/VD kit goes bad, you CANT use the doors... You'd have to lift the whole weight of the door, and thats rough. Now, IF for some reason our shock failed, you can still use your door normally by flipping a lever till a new shock arrived. Are you getting how valuable opening both ways is now?

BTW, we had one guy who thought his shock wasn't performing up to par; what did we do? He had a new one overnighted to him... he had it within 12 hours at absolutely no charge. Thats the kind of service we have.

Of course, with the fact they open both ways, he could still have used his door just fine... you know, if it took us longer than 12 hours to get it to him. You insinuated that we wait to see how the shock was damaged... this leads me again to believe you have NO experience with the VLS or our company, yet continue to make assertions, guesses, etc. fact is our warranty means what it says.

The reason the door didnt come down with the kid hanging from it is that it was fully vertical. This place the full weight of the kid squarely on the hinge, but did not pull it to the side, which is how it descends. If you knew about our company you'd know that we had a 90 degree kit.

"as for stresses on the hinge...the hinge is bulletproof. it's made to take the stress. and it's warrantied as well. id rather the hinge take the stress, which is what it's made to do, than just some shocks...."

What exactly is the warranty on a VD kit? I went to the website, but the FAQ is "under constrution", the disclaimer and policy is "to be updated soon", and there's nothing that I could find that says they have any warranty or insurance (we have a million dollar product liability insurance policy). I think everyone will agree here that a warranty that stands behind the product for the lifetime of it is very important... it means that we stand by the craftmanship 100%. Any less, and i have to ask why not. I want to know that my $1500 (well ours is $1500, your is apparently more) product will be supported for the lifetime of the product. Any less is not acceptable.

4. Well, in the DVD we sell you can see how easy it is to flip the lever. I'm sorry you dont know how to do this yet... but if you have never seen that, I'm really wondering how you can judge/guess the structural rigidity of the hinge at all. It takes about 15 secons to switch modes.

5a. good, glad thats cleared up.

5b. This should be interesting, because that was Jays freshly painted car. He either had the doors locked, or noone was allowed to go near it because he had a photo shoot for the cover of HCI that weekend... I'll be very interested to hear who has this first hand experience. I'll have to ask Jay who he let touch his car.

As for learning how to open a vertical door, obviosuly it's different from OEM. It can be as simple as opening it and lifting, pulling down and shutting. Now if someone tried to close it half way up... which would just be dumb... they could have a problem. I think people aren't going to try that. When you lower our door, you can feel it sit into the hinge at a stop point. It's pretty simple.

6. glad you got it working. We dont have those problems because our kit has been developed for 3 years, so we know all of the things that can go wrong and have addressed them long ago by working carefully with people that have had this on their daily drivers for years. That experience is built into the VLS, and no kit that can't be bolted on with no welding, drilling or rolling of the fenders ever leaves our shop.

7. Actually, as the owner of a car with way more time spent using this a daily driver, clearance to get in and out of the car is CRITICAL. Anyone here who has tried to get into other cars with vertical doors knows this. The fact that the car is low in the first place isn't an excuse for having to turn yourself sideway to get in. It goes against all logic that you'd imply that the door being left in front of the passenger compartment, in the way of the driver getting in, isn't an issue. I assure you, it is. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows that is true. It just makes sense. Door blocking entry=bad. Door completely out of the way=good.

I understand that this isnt a war, but I need to correct mistakes made in the representation of our kit when they happen. As you are a test car for them, obviously you're involved with them. I don't mind that though... but if you are going to try and tell people opening both ways doesnt matter, that warranties dont matter because a shock can go bad, or that there are "potential weak points" I have to come correct, educate, or confirm so that this threads remains more fact than just conjecture and guessing. I understand you just got your doors and you dont have the experience with them I have had over the last 3 years, nor have you had them on your daily driver for about 7 months. This is why doors that fly up on their own is cool right now... but not the first time you go to the movies, you are in a parking lot, and they hit a low parking garage roof. It all comes down to experience.

I think that people here know that I'm all about just answering questions.... I am in a unique position. Yes, I'm involved with the company, but indeed I do not need to stretch the turth about anything. I already have the warranty and insurance, I have the features, i have the vertical clearance, I have the engineering, I have the functionality. I just have to make that clear to everyone in the easiest way possible.

As always, I'm here for questions.

evot23

iTrader: (17)

Ahhh, another well delivered reply by deft. thank-you!!!

evot23

iTrader: (17)

No way to know for sure until I see both kits it looks like.

Each of you send me a demo kit and I'll pass judgement.

LOL...Kudos to keeping it professional

MakoDHardie

deft spyder,

I'm thinking about how the doors would close when you pull them down. I know that with my FD, as with many others, its fairly air-tight for a car inside, and getting the doors to latch all the way when they close them can be a little difficult unless I crack my sunroof real quick. I just want to know what you do when you close the door... Certainly your hardware is strong enough, but to get it to close without bouncing off the interior air pressure, do you just pull it down hard enough to slam it shut like you have to with the stock door hinges, or did you do anything crazy that makes it close easier, like add a couple of GReddy pop-off valves around the weather stripping, or something?

You do make a good point about having control of how high you choose to open the doors. I know that with a 2 car garage and both spots taken by FD's, my garage gets me a little close to the wall when I'm getting out and I'm sure that with a set of doors that angle out as they go up, I would scrape the wall some... Another reason to back into the garage, or flip your switch and get in and out OEM style.

I also know how important it is to have a warrantee and the type of customer support that you have mentioned. One of my radiator brackets on my v-mount broke back in the fall and actually fell off the car. I was lucky it didn't mess anything up when I ran it over with both tires. I called Chuck up at Rotary Extreme and he sent me a new one right away, despite the fact that it had only broken because I neglected to install the driver's side upper radiator mount that is necessary to hold the wet weight on that side since the lower mount has a longer arm from the mounting position. The immediate response that a manufacturer offers the customer in the case that a product becomes dysfunctional or damaged and needs to be replaced is what defines the company's service to the consumer body. Its only a shame there aren't more honest and fair people like you on the sellers' side of the part market. I'm deffinitely interested.

deft_spyder

Excellent question. There's only a few people who realize that the factory seal might change. I personally have a 3000GT Spyder hard top convertible. This car is notorious for developing leaks as the seals go over the years. I personally have not had this problem, but I as someone involved with development of the VLS, I was very interested in seeing how it stood up to a hose when washing. I purposely shot the hose at the weak spots. No water came in. I was happy.

Reports have been that the seal seems stronger than OEM, as some people have lost their wind sound after the VLS install. I personally feel it is the same. Aligning the kit correctly is of course required for this seal.

Of course, this applies to the 3000GT... but what I'm saying is that the way your door closes now is pretty much how it is going


You reminded me of the problem I have with my garage... if you have to park on one side of the garage, your door might open up in the middle of the garage where the garage door motor is. In this instance, you cant have the door open up all the way. When I get home, I open it up to the garage door motor and get out. It would hit if I didnt have control of the door rising. I think being able to control how high it goes is critical for real life applications. It always seems that at the mall, the movie theatre... heck, anywhere aI have to park, how low the ceiling is is always a factor.

As for your wall... fear not. At least with my 3000GT, which has a longer door than yours,s o this could even be better for you... to open the door vertically takes less room to the side of the car than to do it OEM style. We measured this at some point, but i dont recall what the #'s were... I just remember it was less. We did this after someone asked if it would be easier to get into tight spots. The answer was yes.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Bill…Imma make a few comments, and pretty much leave it at that. besides all the "oohs and aahs" from instigators on the forum lol and the "you obviously don’t understand this" and "obviously you haven't seen that" tone which I don't appreciate...im really not liking the direction this thread is taking...

Normally I don’t mind engaging in civilized debates where we can go back and forth on topic…but when things take a turn for the personal, I’m not too nice, and frankly this just isn’t worth me getting all worked up over.

had this been MY product, something i actually have a hand/stake in, id be a lil more passionate (and maybe even personal, almost insulting) as Bill is being. but it's not *my* product...and this isn't something i care about *that* much. honestly, i just dont feel the need or see the logic in me "defending to the death" a product that someone ELSE is making and profiting from. I already have my kit, and ive come to my conclusions about the other kits out there. So im straight

you want numbers, ask Verticaldoors.com. you want warranty info, ask them as well. what material are their shocks and hinges made from? ask 'em that too while you're at it. i think it would be retarded for me to argue say, over why an M2 ECU is better than a PFC w/ Apexi themselves, for example. Let Apexi and M2 duke it out themselves (in this case VLS and verticaldoors). i mean... if im gonna advertise for someone, i better be gettin paid for it lol. but im not, so i wont.

i still have no prob voicing my opinion and sharing my experience of the verticaldoors kit w/ other ppl, but im simply not gonna argue about it, and ESP. not online lol

I still don’t see the need for you getting personal. I never bashed your product, never said it sucked. I only pointed out flaws I saw (and still see). but putting all your personal comments & attacks aside Bill, i think you're marketing for a diff audience, and im in the market for a diff product. what do i mean?

your kit just might be the best one for daily use, since it gives you more options. Ill give ya that. And like you said, if the shocks go bad, or if clearance is an issue, you can still open like OEM. and you know, that's great. more options, yada yada yada Yet im still adamant that no matter how you design it, greater flexibility = greater fragility, no matter how you put it. Saying it’s engineered well is cool but doesn’t do jack in explaining how you can bend the laws of physics. I don’t need to physically have your kit in front of me to talk simple physics. So the issue of opening @ multiple angles, and controlling it via a simple lever/switch *still* presents a long-term reliability issue when compared to say, a hinge that opens in only one direction.

in any case, your product (which I respect) just isn’t wut im looking for. if that means i cant open like OEM, that's cool. if that means *if* my shocks go bad ill have to squeeze in and out of the 6" opening for a few days, i can live w/ that. cuz in my eyes, the structural integrity of having a hinge that opens in only one direction - almost straight up, is by far more important than the downsides additional available options come w/. I gotta decide what's my top priority. and frankly, when it comes to vertical doors, a purely asthetic mod, which has no performance factor whatsoever, looks and durability are #1 in my book. how it will look and will it last supercede what options it gives me.

what I hope you realize is, i drive an FD, a car that consistently requires you to compromise. a car that ive learned you have to give some, to get some. you want power, lose reliability, and sometimes even drivability for example. You want it running, lose the g/f, and your life savings lol. Everything on this car has it’s price. that just seems to be the name of the game w/ this car. I mean, if you thing I got an FD for its plethora of options lol…buddy…you’re sorely mistaken. No cruise control, no bose system, no adjustable steering wheel, no backseats, practically no trunk, roughest suspension known to man, no cupholders lol. You get my drift? Options aren’t so high on my list.

And now w/ all these diff lambo door kits being mass produced for all these diff cars all of a sudden, something that's supposed to make a car look *exotic* is now about to become a lot more commonplace. so my thing is, hey, i DON’T WANT to be like everyone else. I want my doors to be the *only ones* that open up by themselves, and the only ones that are swept back, and opening almost totally vertically. THAT’S what im in it for. Form and function, not options. Im goin for simple, sturdy, and special. Not a #2 biggie sized w/ everything on it

and on a last note…you obviously don’t know me personally, so you don’t realize I wasn’t comin after you per say (or your kit for that matter). But even if I was, there was absolutely no need to make many of the comments you made in your response. That, and tweaking things to portray them in a diff light is nothing short of shady (like it’s okay for you to jump on *every single* lambo door thread this forum has, but when I simply reply to the 2 major ones, all of a sudden im “posting everywhere” ?? lol interesting…
(besides…I thought the point *is* for people to read another perspective, now isn’t it??)

so yea…customer service/courtesy is crucial…and that means no matter how mean, nasty, ignorant etc the customer is, you’re still cordial and polite. So the next time someone criticizes your product, simply clarify things and defend it...not arch your back and go on the prowl. and when someone kindly requests you don’t associate this name w/ that, grant their request. Or they state they’re not affiliated w/ this or that, take them at their word. It’s basic decency. And to me, that’s more important than this or that kit being better. That's why I even told the other guy to wait until you reply before deciding, because that's the etiquitte & decency of discussion. And it's that lack of decency that’s my reason for choosing to stop pursuing this argument w/ u anymore (which is ironic since I never intended for an argument..just a discussion.) and imma leave it at that

Like I said before tho, if anyone has questions/comments/concerns about the kit on my car, that’s cool, ill be happy to answer. But if you wanna duke it out between the 2 kits, I suggest you find someone from verticaldoors.com and get them on the forum, cuz that’s not my forte

PS...while i personally dont care whether verticaldoors gets sued or not, i really hope you don't think just cuz a lawyer sees that decah has a case means it lends them any credibility. i respect lawyers...i really do, but lawyers are the ones who defend mob bosses & drug dealers. lawyers got OJ off. lawyers sue McDonalds cuz a lady was dumb enough to spill HOT coffee on her own hand. and lawyers help me when i get caught doing 92 in a 65 on a 2 lane deserted road w/ radar that was calibrated the day before lol. more like the lawyers see potential $$$. definetly not a good argument...

Fumanchu

Seems to me the VLS system is the better one.


The product quality, features and customer service seem superior to the others. Just the fact that he stands behind the entire product for life is enough for me. Not to mention the kit is hundreds less than the verticaldoors kit.


FDNewbie- Seems to me that Bill wasn't attacking you at all but actually defending his product from untrue info. I look up to that because it says he has passion for the work involved in making the kit. Also, mobility isn't always a weakness. If the design is right and tested correctly, there is nothing to worry about.


I am leaning towards VLS for the shock debate as well. Bill isn't worried about the shock going bad and doesn't need to "overfill" his shocks so sometime down the road when they sag. FDNewbie, your agument on that seems ***-backwards. I'll take the quality product and use one finger to lift the door rather than having the door lift on it's own.


Also, Newbie... I would like to see you squeeze out of a door that only opens 6''. That would be a site to see.

deft_spyder

Fumanchu, thank you for your comments.

FD, I only said you obviously had no experience with something when you "guessed" that it would take minutes to change from vertical to OEM when it was completely wrong, and the other things when it was clear that you really had no experience with the VLS. That's not a personal attack any furthur than pointing out that truth. If you are offended by that, then we should stick to facts instead of guessing.

For instance, i could have said "they dont have a warranty"... but no, I checked the website, and when I didnt see it, I asked you. thats because I will not state something I have no knowledge of, nor will I guess. You should do the same.

.you want warranty info, ask them as well. what material are their shocks and hinges made from? ask 'em that too while you're at it.

Now you have been representing the kit as strong, built tough, even "bullet proof"... giving us all your golden seal for the design and construction of the kit. But now when asked for numbers, you're telling me to go to VD for information. Are you telling me you have made these statements without even knowing what type of metal it is?

It's either you know the quality of the metal, how it is welded, if a certified welder did the welds (ours is), if it is CNC cut, etc... or perhaps you just got your kit days ago and don't really know all that much about it. Thats not a bad thing, but we are having a technical discussion here and making claims that should be backed. (thats not personal, just trying to keep it to facts we know).

There are very critical things that go into a hinge of this type like metal type, how it is cut, what bearings and bushings you use, if you use racers or not, how and WHO welds the kit, etc.

As for not knowing if there is a warranty... are you telling me you just paid for a vertical door over $1500 bucks (because i know the VD is more expensive than ours at $1500, but dont know how much) and have no idea if it snaps tommorow if you can get it replaced under warranty?

Or, did you get it for free... which would certainly be a sponsorship/beta situation, and perhaps not be as 3rd party as portrayed. I mean, I know your are a tester/beta car, so you must know someone.

On the topic of "personal attacks"
My rhetoric has been point by point responses to your statements. If it was a statement as fact, i refuted and discussed, if it was just conjecture, that is the only time I had to point out you had no knowledge of the subject. It is easy on boards for someone to skim and think that is true. I needed to point out where you were guessing and didnt have any knowledge of the topic. I'm sure you understand.

I only pointed out flaws I saw (and still see). but putting all your personal comments & attacks aside Bill, i think you're marketing for a diff audience, and im in the market for a diff product.

Most of the "flaws" you saw were completely off base. How do you figure you still see them? We already know that your guesses at construction, fuctionality, even use were complete guesses... so which are you referring to?

more options, yada yada yada.

Im going to bank on the fact that people will not dismiss more functionality, options, etc so cavalierly as saying "yadda yadda" to options. I'm almost positive that people that can afford these prices are educated and take into consideration these things.

Yet im still adamant that no matter how you design it, greater flexibility = greater fragility, no matter how you put it.

Well, I'll explain why that is wrong since you keep bringing that up adamantly. Materials and design mean everything. Theres a real easy example in skyscrapers... You should know that flexibility is BUILT into their design because it is less fragile. Building sway with the wind or earthquakes. So while that is a simple example of why greater flexibility does not equal greater fragility, let me explain how 2 joints can be stronger than 1.

The first hinge is thin, not as strong metal, different design. the 2nd is completely overbuilt, uses stronger metal. Now you can see how materials and design can make it so a 2 hinge design can be stronger than one.

Now, if I had the identical 2 hinges, and had 1 joint on 1, 2 on the other... well then your argument might fly, but I'm sure that design could overcome the flaws of the single hinge design and allow for two.

- I'll say again I know you are just a guy who got some hinges made for him, so please don't take it personally if I seem to have a better undertsanding of this... I've just been doing this for 3 years now... this isn't a personal attack.

if that means *if* my shocks go bad ill have to squeeze in and out of the 6" opening for a few days, i can live w/ that.

I just pulled out a ruler to see how far across 6 inches. I wouldn't want to have to squeeze through 6 inches... I'm not sure my dog could.

Does the fact you said you can get a shock in a few days mean that you now know if there is a warranty or not?

We overnight our warranty parts asap if there is ever a problem.

I mean, if you thing I got an FD for its plethora of options lol…buddy…you’re sorely mistaken. No cruise control, no bose system, no adjustable steering wheel, no backseats, practically no trunk, roughest suspension known to man, no cupholders lol. You get my drift? Options aren’t so high on my list.

You know, I'd expect someone who has admittedly few options in his choice of car to embrace something with decidely more options. I own a car with no trunck, no backseat... i know all about limited options.

So you are saying that the reason you chose less options is because... you dont have that many options now? That is a unique position, and I'm going to have to bank that other people with few options will appreciate more options.

If you could point me to where I have "tweaked things to portray them in a different light" please do so. I want things to be as clear as possible. I'm getting the feeling that you are trying to portray me as attacking you personally. I'm not sure I have said anything beyond pointing out where you are guessing. I think that is pretty clear.

If you should decide to not respond I'll assume you agree, unless you can bring better evidence to the table, in which case we can certainly compare our materials, engineering, etc. I look forward to it.