So after hearing tims and Enzo's testimony on running large injectors unstaged I just had to try it.

Worked great for me!

I have 720cc primaries and 1600cc 2ndaries and for a quick try I moved the staging bar down to 1 and adjusted the cranking prime (down to ~20 ms on my set-up, but I have to run more here because of manifold whetting from my polished runners and revesion pulses)and idle maps (down surprisingly little here.)

Started very quickly and idled just as smooth or smoother than staged - loping between 720-800rpm as strongly as usual.

Does recieving atomised fuel from both sides of the rotor help keep the fuel in suspension at idle?

I have a large streetport, ported polished no plenum low velocity intake, alum flywheel, 3mm seals, low comp rotors and 3 1/2" turbo back on 15 deg clipped "O" trim and no accessories- all to hurt my idle quality. I have always assumed that is why it lopes between 720-800 rpm and sounds like a streetport, but maybe I can't tune.

Try it out and post results here please.

 

I'm seriously considering running "unstaged" also, but I will have 850cc primaries and 1600cc secondaries. Do you think I'll have problems getting it to idle decently? This will be on a HUGE PINEAPPLE built RE motor. I'll keep updating as I get closer to THE DAY.


Jim

 

I dunno.

Enzo is running four 1600cc Bosch, I believe- but the Bosch inj may switch faster than the ND?

 

one of these days i will get around to it. on the email list today, there was a post about moving to bar 15 for staging and that worked just as well...??

 

I first tried moving the stage bar down 2 bars from zero manifold pressure.

I could get it feeling pretty smooth going up into boost, but it would stumble going back down through the 2ndaries into higher vacuum w/ partial throttle. Also, the AF ratio would go dead lean (5th ~2000rpm) for a part of a second- probably won't hurt an engine in vacuum? I couldn't work around this lean out using throttle pump settings or anything (I do have 2nd set of 2ndary throttle plates removed and larger ported runners).

Then I tried moving the stage bar up 2 bars from zero manifold pressure.

I could get the transition very smooth feeling going up into 2ndaries and down back into primaries, BUT going from primaries into 2ndaries the AF would drop to 14:1 for ~1 full second (5th ~2000 rpm) no matter how I fiddled w/ settings. Again probably fine at .2KG/MM of boost, but not what I wanted.

I still have it set-up like this, I just ran 720 and 1600 together at idle so far to see that it did indeed work and haven't redone all my maps for this unstaged set-up.

I was wondering if my transition issue was a fuel delivery problem. Perhaps there is a restriction that the pump can flow enough through, but restricts enough to momentarily drop fuel pressure once those big 2ndaries are switched on?

I am running a Walbro through the stock hardline to a stock filter then parallel -6AN lines to a S4 primary rail and a larger volume K2RD 2ndary rail and then into the dual port Aeromotive regulator and single -6AN back to the stock fuel return hardline. I think I will get a higher flowing filter at least

 

Good stuff, Blue T2. I'm playing with this as we speak myself and am trying to come up with a good solution.

B

 

What kinda idle speeds are we talking about here?


-Ted

 

750 RPM

 

OK, tried going into load w/ the 720 and 1600 staged at bar 1. The map started to look suspiciously like my 720 pimary staged to 1600 2ndary map.

This lead me to believe the 1600 were just not switching fast enough to have much affect on idle. Let me know if you get results to the contrary Brian.

I also tried running the 720 and 1600 in "Batch" mode (as an NA rotary normally would) fiing the 2 720s and then the 2 1600s alternately.

This gave me a ROCK STEADY idle (as opposed to my usual loping idle) even at 700 RPM once I cut the fuel way down. There was a vey annoying loud clicking of the 1600s. I didn't try going into load w/ this set-up yet; I don't think I could stand the clatter.

This would seem to indicate the 2ndaries can switch fast enough.

So basically I played around w/ this and confused myself even more. Anyone else have input?

 

I find this very hard to believe that you can get any 1600 + whatever primary fuel injector system to idle at 750RPM.&nbsp It could be that the 1600's are running at such a low pulsewidth that you're still firing them on dead time - electrical pulse going through, but it's not enough to open and close the fuel injector reliably.&nbsp This reminds me of the old Microtech or Wolf systems (I forgot which one) which always fired the secondaries on batch mode, but due to the ultra low pulsewidths it never opened at low RPM/low load conditions.&nbsp This is not the best way to do this, as there could be a possible problem with overheating the fuel injector unnecessarily.


-Ted

 

Well, it certainly does idle that low and quite well- it is everything BUT idle that it has big problems with!

Yes, the 2ndaries are probably not even opening at idle when they are staged at Bar 1. That was my conclussion as well based on the load maps I was getting.

In batch mode (where I had to really cut the fuel down, but the idle was very solid) it was making such a racket I could easily believe this is overheating the large 1600s. It just didn't sound good- not going to do it.

So, end of this experiment for me. I am moving my stage bar from 14 to 15 in hopes of more stability when 2ndaries come on (in 5th it leans out to 14:1 momentarily).

 

so your conclusion is to go back to staged? HITman was talking about (and explaining) how moving the staging bar to far can lead to problems as well....

 

I have never tried running non staged with a haltech so i can't really help you there.

Im using an Autronic SM2 running all injectors non staged. Idle is 750~800 rpms.

 

well if you run 4x1600's you don't need staging..... i know a car that had 4x1600's and it idled fine with a wolf3d... eventually when i'm really bored i'll put in my 1600cc primaries..

 

just for my clarification.

when you are adjusting bars to the left of the staging bars, you are adjusting just the primary

and when your adjusting to the right of the bar, you are adjusting BOTH primary and sencondary, regardless of where the staging bar is.

am I correct??????

 

That is correct.


-Ted

 

Hey guys, this just my humble opinion here, but being a Haltech Dealer and working with rotaries for almost 6 years now i dont really see the point in trying to run all 4 injectors unstaged no matter what combination you use.

First of all its a waste of fuel, 2nd, the secondary butterflies that feed the streaming air to the secondary injectors are closed all the way to around 40-50% thorttle, so again dont see the point.

Also, are you guys aware of how much horsepower you can actually generate from a 550/1600 injector combination, roughly 550HP to the wheels! Are all your cars at those numbers right now? Not to mention the fuel pump(s)/regulator and fuel lines you need for 550HP.

You can pretty much get a very decent fuel curve from 2x550 primes and make the transition at the 12th bar (0 boost bar) or even 1 or 2 bars higher, with 1600cc.

That's my 2 cents.

Later,

 

Hey claudio that is the same exact combination I have right now. I am still trying to wire in my E6K and can decide to completely remove the stock ECU or run my own wires to each sensor ; the only reason I want to keep it is for the Oil metering pump and not knowing or have knowledge of wires that goes to the insrument cluster for indication like the tack sensor wire and road speed sensor wire that comes from the tranny and mates with the Engine wire harness.

Where can i get a signal for my Haltech for my stock Tachometer?

 

Hey Mostins,

You can actually get all the gauges to work on your car without using the factory ECU but its a lot of work and you will need the factory wiring diagrams so you can connect everything directly.

As for the wiring of the E6K, you should use the Haltech harness its less complicated to just wire everything up with that. As for the Road Speed sensor, i believe you can connect it directly to the odometer, but im not sure.

As the dealer who sold it to you to provide the wiring diagrams to hook it up to your car. He works with rotaries, that's their favorite car to install on.

Later,

 

profile says you have an FD. tach signal will not be effected by removing the engine side of wiring harness. that signal is actualy in the driver side of that wiring harness which you will not realy be touching. the only way it wont work, is if you dont reconect the signal at the ignitor.
as far as the road speed and other signals, you need to cut them out of the oem harness on the trany side of the engine harness, plug them back in in the kickpanel. it is fairly straight forward. you will need to use a (if memory serves) a white w/ blue tracer (W/L) to hook up to a PWM to turn on your fans... any other help, just PM me.

 

Thanks rxrotary2_7
That realy helps alot; I believe its the B/LG wire coming from the Ignitor unit is for the tach signal.

Now the tranny harness I am not to clear on, I will have to check my entire engine harness that is out of the car. I was trying to seperate the tranny wire from the harness but i ran in to some wires that I had no idea where they go and did not wanted to cut them. so pleas tell me which wire to cut from the tranny harness going back to the main harness. And what color and size connector is pluged back in to the connector near the kickpanel

 

take the whole harhess in your hand, right where it comes through the firewall there is a lead that has 4 conectors on it for the trany. should be facing the other way (away from engine) by nature of the way its put together. this is the part you will need. from conector to conector after stripped down, the run of wire should be about 2.5ft to 3ft long.

 

what are the four connectors for? I am only going to use one which is for the Odometer.

And can you please clarify how can a I get a tach signal to my tachometer.

 

i am gonna guess that you dont have the electical manual from Mazda.... all your questions can be answered with that book.
there should be no problem getting a tach signal if everything is hooked up correctly. the only wire that is touched that will mess with a tach signal is the one i already explained as being part of the ignitor. from memory it is a LtGreen wire. you will have the wire going to the ignitor plug now cut to hook up your flying lead. you need to TAP INTO that wire, not just run the haltech's flying loom from it. if the wire is not back together AND haltech signal inline with it also, your tach will not work.