BDC

Finally got this one nailed down. The Trigger tab settings for the FD crank trigger wheel are as follows:

Type - Mazda Rotary Multitooth 24 and 2
Trigger Angle 81
Tooth Offset 10
Trigger/Home Edges Falling
Trigger/Home Sensor Types Reluctor

You can use Level 1 filtering on both trigger and home.

This puts the base timing for the FD trigger wheel at exactly accurate. I timed one using the trigger wheel's 20*ATDC marker with the Timing Lock enabled at -20* on Leading 1 on a direct fire setup. Double-checked and verified and its accurate. So for those trying to get a Platinum to run on their FD, here you go. That's one less headache for you.

Oh, also, Ignition settings:

If using LS1 coils in a direct fire setup:

Spark Mode Direct Fire
Spark Edge/Trailing Spark Edge Falling
Dwell and Trail Dwell modes Constant Charge
Dwell time 6.000ms

For factory (wired IGN1 to leading dual output coil, IGN2 Trail 1, and IGN3 Trail 2)
Spark Mode Waste Spark
Both Edges Falling
Dwell Modes Constant Charge
Dwell time 3.800ms

B

fritts

iTrader: (5)

Those numbers for angle and offset are not necessarily correct. I'm at 10 tooth 67 angle for mine. Also you may have issues with crank ignition problems even on 10 tooth, as I did. Though the 11 tooth fix map on the Haltech site did fix the issue.

FJDRX7

iTrader: (32)

I will try those tomorrow

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

That's in the area of what I have found to work.

Saying that this is the value that works is not correct, even in a non-adjustable system like the FD.

fritts

iTrader: (5)

My 67 angle or the 81 angle is what your finding to be close? I was worried as well someone would put the values in and assume it was zeroed.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Your 10/67.

IMO, way too many people read these threads and say this is what person "x" did and assume it's a dead drop in fix for them. It's even worse with with fuel maps. Zeroing the trigger is the most important part of setting up the ECU, and not to be taken lightly. Even with a non-adjustable system, like the FD, there are manufacturing tolerances that stack up. If those tolerances stack up to only 5*, it could be the difference between a good and poor running engine or a broken engine. It's better, IMO, to teach the procedure for zeroing the timing and letting the user go through that procedure than it is to say, "this is what works". Same goes with fuel maps. "...teach a man to fish..." and all that.

Having said that, Fritts and I have about a 20* difference versus what Brian is showing. That's not manufaturing tolerance.

fd_neal

iTrader: (4)

Im also close to Chris and Fritz

BDC

That's very curious because that's about a 15* difference which is the trail split difference in lock timing set by default on the software. I verified this one several times using a 20*ATDC lock degrees and hanging the gun pickup off L1. When I did it with 5*ATDC lock degrees with the gun pickup on T1, the mark did not line up. Makes me wonder if the Haltech is truly doing a 15* trail split.

What method are you guys using?

B

BDC

The 81/10 post here is based on the assumption that the fixed trigger wheel is identical on all FD's, therefore there's only one angle and offset pair of values that need to be used. Does anybody know for certain if there's different, factory trigger wheels out there?

B

fritts

iTrader: (5)

I could only find one configuration in my searches about the wheel position on the REW crank.

I use T1 -5deg with a split of 15 locked. I verify leading though by a 0 deg mark I have added to my pulley. If I remember right if I had a warmed up engine have been able to apply -20 and verify on L1.

2a+RoN

At 9000rpm, the cycle time is only 6.667 ms. If you're dwelling the coils for 6ms, you are only giving them .66ms for spark duration and recovery for the next cycle.. not enough time. Unfortunately the platinum software does not give us a dwell table to lower dwell as RPM increases, so max dwell should be about 4.2 to ensure full spark discharge and recovery of the coil. For waste spark, firing twice per cycle, 3.8ms of dwell x2 is 7.6ms, longer than the cycle itself...

BDC

That's correct, but I have to ask - Who's said anything about revving to 9krpm? Also, this is on a direct fire setup using the LS1 coils. The reason why I'm suggesting 6ms for those in particular is because running less seemed to produce ignition break-up. It seems to me they like to be charged up that high.

B

fritts

iTrader: (5)

I regularly pushed nearly 100% on the truck LS coils without issue. Based off my experience I do believe there is some extra power when pushing them to 6ms.

BDC

I might be bonkers, but I could've sworn I recall seeing the trail split wasn't actually locking at 15* vs. leading on my gauge page when I was doing this the first time on the car in question a few days ago. I remember noticing it and wondering if the gauge I'd put in that gauge page was configured correctly. It was set to Trail-Split whatever the rest of the name is.

So, instead of setting the lock degrees at 5*ATDC and using T1 (assuming a 15* split), I went ahead and locked it at 20*ATDC, used L1, and removed the variable of assuming there was a 15* split.

By the way, while I'm thinking about this, I don't think there's a possibility of differing trigger wheels and front hubs on the FD. HEre's my reasoning: if it were so, then there would have to be some sort of ability or function within the PowerFC to adjust base timing as there is on most other systems. But since the PFC is made straight for the FD, and since there's no adjustability of things like trigger angle and tooth offset, it strikes me that whatever values they've got for "zeroing" the base timing out on that system are static, hardcoded, and assumed to be constant for every one of those cars. Therefore, in my view, it seems to me that all we must do is find the correct values for one of these things and then transplant them over elsewhere.

The car I tuned with the 81/10 ran quite well and by all accounts felt perfectly normal to me in low load response and high load power. Even though I could be mistaken, if the proper trigger angle were supposed to be set to 67, then the base timing would be retarded across the board by 14*, producing much more poor response in vacuum and producing so-so power under load (been there, done that, wasted several hours on a car that was 15* backed off once). By the way, this was using ECU Manager 1.06.

B

BDC

I had some whacky break-up during mid-high rpm's under load that wasn't cured until I raised the dwell from 5 to 6ms on these coils. /shrug

B

fd_neal

iTrader: (4)

When I timed mine I locked timing to 20*ATDC and put the pickup on L1. For whatever reason my gun wont read off of T1. Ive been meaning to borrow a different gun to verify the timing with. I have 10/65 with insignificant drift when revving to 3000rpm.

The car has been dyno tuned up to 10psi and roadtuned/tracked up to 18psi power seems pretty normal to me.


When i get around to verifying things with a different light I will try the 10/81 combo

Nige

If it wont read of T1 then T1 isn't firing...

BDC

Alright, this is very curious. I wonder if the discrepancy here might be a swapped front hub. I didn't build the engine but I suppose it's possible that an FC hub may've been used on this build. Even though the asymmetric bolt pattern doesn't change (therefore allowing only one way to bolt a crank pulley/trigger wheel on), it doesn't mean the bolt pattern itself doesn't rotate around relative to the front keyway position. I've seen this time and again on 2nd gen setups. Maybe one of those hubs was accidentally used here on this FD setup, therefore throwing the 20*ATDC marker off. Is everybody else out there verifying the 65-67/10 combo with Timing Lock set to -20 and using L1 as the gun pickup?

B

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

edit sorry guys. Re read it. Very strange

fd_neal

iTrader: (4)

Thats what I thought at first, but ive tested it several ways and all the plugs are firing properly. In my case the gun/coil/plug wire combo dont play well with each other. Ive had to strip most of the insulation off of a "test" wire to get the gun to pickup at all. Part of the reason I want to verify with a different timing gun.

fd_neal

iTrader: (4)

Lining up L1 to 20* ATDC with ignition locked to 20* ATDC.

BDC

That's exactly how I did it on this car and came up with 81/10. The mark on the trigger wheel lines right up on the timing mark on the front cover. Car runs terrific. Really makes me wonder if there's a non-FD front hub on that crankshaft.

B

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Assuming the hub was wrong and you zeroed the system to the incorrect hub, your actual timing would be off by that amount. In this case retard by about 15*, give or take. Hard to believe the engine would run so well in that case.

BDC

Actually, yep you're right Chris. Now I'm startin' to pull my hair out. Really, there ought to be just one set of values to use for every one of these things. I spent about 20 minutes or so with the base timing portion as I was really trying to nail it down to make this post here. Hmmm.

B

pluto

that sounds like a wiring issue. Since the trigger wheel produces 12 pulses per revolution, each tooth offset is exactly 30 degrees apart. If you wire your trigger sensor signal and gnd backwards, the sine wave will be 180 out of phase which will change your trigger angle by exactly 15 degrees. Will the car run and tune fine? The answer is yes but your wave form is 15 degrees different than the proper wiring.