I have a 20b FD that im going to be running with my E11, however i have a bunch of "extras" that most people dont need/bother with, and im worried that i wont have enough outputs to control everything i have. i also noticed that there are other non-used functions/wires, and i was wondering if i could change some of those non-used wires to outputs (but that may not be possible). anyway i wanted to ask you opinions on a game plan. i know outputs are tight already and running a 20b takes up a couple extra... im not sure how many id have left to work with??

~First off i live in CA and need to pass smog, so thats one hurdle to jump. At the very least i need to retain the airpump, and preferably double throttle control, purge control, and EGR. im not sure how many outs i need to control these, or if any of these functions can be combined on the same outputs.

~I am also running the sequential twin turbos (with aftermarket boost controller) so there are 2 outputs used for the turbos.

~I also want/need AC. im not sure how many outputs are used to control AC. (from searching i cant find much specific information on running AC with the haltech).

Thanks, Heath

 

U cannot control 20B at OEM manner.
1. AC in - yes
2. EGR - dunno
3. Boost Control solenoid - yes
4. Sequential turbo - no
5. Double throttle - no
6. Dual thermostat - yes
7. Many standard 20B thermo sensors - no

E11V2 it is an auto sport device.

 

air pump is an rpm switch, so is the acv stuff, possible you could run em all on 1 output..

20b has no egr....

the double throttle thing isnt emissions, but its just a solenoid that turns on at a certain temp, or more like turns off

not sure about the purge valve, i know its a simple system, just dont know when they trigger it

2 for the turbos, haltech can run the boost solenoid too, but if you use an aftermarket controller, then that frees up stuff in the ecu

in the stock system the a/c grounds thru the stock ecu, so the ecu knows its on, i think the haltech works the same way.

so 2 turbo, 1 air pump, 1 acv, 1 purge valve, thats 5, what are doing for the tach and the fans?

 

plus the fans and the bac valve.

maybe its easier to hook up a stock ecu just to run the emissions?

 

You can use the stepper motor control to free up an output from the BAC. 20B's that Ive seen have a standard Air pump (no clutch), EGR, and the only smog systems required to pass smog are CATS and airpump, its good to have some of the air control valve functions for converter longevity.

BUT...

You will never pass smog with a 20B in CA running gasoline in a non smog exempt car. CA law expressly forbids the use of non CA certified engines in cars registered in CA, federal law forbids the use of non EPA certified engines registered to cars in any state, though some states just don't care.

4 ways to have a smog legal 20B in CA:

Bribe someone or use the temporarily out of state trick (then its not really legal)

Run LPG or natural gas (haltech can actually control this) these fuels make the car smog exempt.

Legally register it somewhere else, this can be done in a number of ways that are hard to challenge/hard to prove wrongdoing.

Put it in a 75 or before vehicle (early 70's 911 with wide body would be my choice)

 

yeah i guess thats right, if you have a clutch on the airpump, then you really dont need the acv....

lol, i totally forgot that the 20b isnt in their books, a stock one will pass out the tailpipe though...

 

yeah i know its lot legal here. im not planning on passing at any old smog station, i have someone who will pass me on visual . i also have someone who will pass me without seeing the car! but regardless, i intend to have as many smog systems functioning as possible. i dont want to be paranoid driving around, and i see no reason to pollute more than i already am. I am currently working on constructing a twin parallel cat setup.

as far as the 20b, i have it setup with the FD accesories, so i have the clutch activated air pump. maybe using that would allow me to eliminate the Air Control Valve solenoid? im still trying to understand the functionality of the emissions section on the 20b as its a little different than the FD setup. ill have to ask around in hte 20b section to clarify all the bits and pieces and what they do , however ill just get the response "eliminate EVERYTHING" .

 

well i know that some functions are simply controlled by the temp sensor and relays... but damn now that i think about it i think the stock ECU plays a role as well. sorry for my ignorance im researching all of this at once and its a STEEP learning curve.

BAC? do i have one on the 20b?

 

You have to realise that you will be in a world of hurt if you get a reff ticket, could be subject to heavy fines etc.

in any case:

There is a BAC for a 20B yes, you could use an IDLE stepper motor.

Here's the deal, have the airpump in place and plumbed through the stock ACV if it fits, but hook up the ACV so that 100% of the air is going out to the cat, this should be easy to figure out, it will be just vac to a port.

Run cats, but without the airpump running most of the time, (turn it on by switch when you need it) even without the airpump the cats will bring the emission well below the gross polluter status the car would have without it. Contrary to popular belief running without the airpump won't clog the cats, what clogs the cats is excess heat, generated by excess fuel reacting with air suplied by the airpump. Lest I remind you that the stock FD turns the airpump off after 3500 RPM, why because pre OBD II the car didn't have to meet regulations after that RPM, or at least not the same ones. I garuntee you that a full throttle run to redline on a stock and perfect FD would have HC's in the gross polluter range after 3500RPM. What mazda did have to meet is converter warantee requirments, and turning the airpump off helps. The FD NEVER would have met OBD2 requirments without a major redesign.

The other smog controls do virtually nothing, the double throttle for example just prevents idiot drivers from having full throttle before the car is warmed up, you can do this with your right foot, Some of the ACV's functions are for port air injection at different operating ranges, you don't want this and its really not required (not sure if its there on a 20B anyways). No EGR, rotary engines don't make much NOX at all, hence the EGR was not present on the US 95 Rx7 or S5's or most pre S4's and yet its smog systems are otherwise identicle to the eailier car.

My car passes fine (13B-rew FC) with a haltech on 1 cheap catco cat.

 

the emissions systems on the cosmo is most like a 12a from 81-85.

http://www.jimrothe.com/mazda/84_tra...ual/index.html

except, they put a clutch on the air pump so they can turn it off.

the air pump is there because at idle and engine speeds, they cant run the engine lean enough, without misfiring, to have the cat work. so they run the engine rich, and inject a lot of air, this actually gives like 17:1 afr. makes the cats HOT. the us engines got a larger airpump than the japanese.

you do have a bac valve, its really similar to the fd one

 

thank you to everyone contributing to this thread! im studying every acronym, system, and hyper link i can get my hands on.

haltech lists Idle air control valve in the output section of their spec sheet. Is idle air control the same as BAC (bypass air control)? if so, i assume the haltech is configured to control the stock BAC valve and i can cross that off my list of needed outputs?

after the two PWM outputs for the turbos i have two left. i know i will need at least one to control the fans, which leaves me with 1 output left (i dont know why they only provided 4 outputs!). port air control is not gonna happen, and if there is no EGR, then i only have double throttle, the airpump on/off switch, and purge control (which i believe needs a duty signal to operate). so thats 3 functions and one switch. i could ditch the double throttle (or maybe even set it up with a physical temp switch drilled into the water pump housing (if i can find one in the correct temp range). yes i know i dont NEED it but if theres a way to set it up im fine with putting in the extra work.

what i do NEED is the airpump on/off switch and purge control, however im left with a single output to work with. i know they are both supposed to be active only in low load and low RPM situations (thats all the similarities they have however) but i wonder if they can be run together??

EDIT: Damn, i just realized ive forgotten about the OMP!!!

lastly, on the haltech spec sheet under "ECU Outputs" on page 2 they list 'SPECIAL PURPOSE DIGITAL OUTPUT'. This is not listed on the first page under outputs so im a little confused, maybe someone in the know can clarify. It says:
"up to 9 special purpose digital outputs depending on number of channels required to operate the engine. 12Volt logic outputs suitable for switching fans, shift lights, anti-lag, NOS, PWM style outputs, Extra injector outputs, etc."
This suggests there may be extra outputs? do i have them, how do i use them, and why arent they listed on P.1 under outputs? if i actually have 9 MORE outputs ill have more than enough to control everything that i want, and room to add extras.

PS just to clarify, the AC itself is controlled by the switch on the dash, and the e11 only needs and input signal from the AC saying there is an extra load on the engine, and to activate the BAC correct? power steering also has an ECU input only? what about an input for high electrical load?

I want to thank you all again for taking the time to answer my questions so thoroughly!! I just want to stress how much i appreciate all of your time and explanations, as this is all rather bewildering to me... id be completely lost otherwise! -Heath

 

your forgetting about AUX outputs, there are PWM 1-4 + 2 aux outputs total of 6.

There is also a stepper motor out which is a specialized output capable of controlling an IDLE stepper motor (like a BAC) or an OMP.

Thats in addition to the 6 ign and 6 injection outputs which function as PWM outs if not used by your motor (yours will be used) on a 13B, you only use 4 injection outs and 3 or 4 ign outs.

 

In the above post when I say like a BAC I don't mean that it can control a BAC, but that a stepper motor has the same function of a BAC. Your car has a BAC.

 

wait so i can control the BAC *OR* my OMP and not both? this would definately be a big problem. and as far as the 9 "digital outs" do they not apply to my application (or were those included and used in the injector/ignition outs)? And i have an additional 2 aux outs that are not used? i dont see them listed on the spec sheet.

 

YOUR GETTING AHEAD OF YOURSELF WITH THESE QUESTIONS, load the software, play with it for a few hours, explore every screen, read the entire manual.

No the BAC is not controlled by the stepper motor output, an idle air control stepper motor can be. I only stated that an idle air control stepper motor is like a bac in that it does the same thing, a point which I attempted to clarify in my second post. Also you don't need a OMP, heard of premix

On a 20B you use up 12 outputs for ign and injection. You then have an addition 6 outputs, 4 PWM's and 2 AUX outs. All of these do essentially the same thing.

 

I do need an OMP . i dont plan on carrying a quart of oil in my car for every time i need to fill up (which will be often). in fact, not only would i like to not bother with tedium of premixing, i dont have a single place in the car to store a quart of oil. ive got back seats so no cubbies, and the trunk will have the bose bass tube, optima battery, and a medium sized amp . the only place left for oil is the glovebox which will be filled with various controlers, and the floor . if i wont be able to control my OMP then i need to search for a new ecu (however i just found a writeup on the banzai site for wiring the OMP)

Also, i dont necessarily think im getting ahead of myself... I have my subframe mounted in the car, engine somewhat assembled on a stand, ecu in hand, and a box full of vacuum solenoids, lines and wiring harnesses from the 20b and FD. if any time is a good time to plan out the functionality and routing of the engine harness and vacuum line/solenoid system, now is a good time. also thanks very much for the sequential diagrams!! i think ive got the vacuum system 80% figgured out at this point. the last things to add will be any lines associated with whatever emissions systems i can keep (contingent on the number of outputs im left over with).

 

If you read the manual, and play with the software it would answer every question you have thus far asked.

Trying to even plan a haltech installation without these 2 steps is getting ahead of yourself.

 

ok im reading now

 

on mine, which was a loooong time ago. non sequential turbos, cat with no other smog equipment. i had the ecu doing the following

1. bac valve, its a menu choice. it took a little fiddling to get it happy, also you cant run the thermowax because the haltech only turns on the bac valve at 0 throttle, and the thermowax opens the throttle. good news is that the haltech can do a fast idle when cold

2. fans, i wasnt running anything factory, i had em coming on around 92-95c you can set it lower, but then they just run all the time

3. tach. this also took some fiddling i wanna say with duty cycle, but we did get it to work.

4. boost solenoid, i didnt get to tune this one, and they've since totally changed the software, for the better! idea was to get the turbo's spooled up quicker, and run like 8ish psi

5. omp, www.k2rd.com

that leaves you with aux 1 and aux 2, plus the pwms.....