Greg

I am looking for the ideal computer which can tune the 20B cosmos engine to around 800-900 hp. I dont need any accessories, all I need it to get the motor to actually run. I was looking into the motec M4 but after a price quote of $10,000 I dont think I will be going that route. I also heard that the Haltech E6K will run the 20 cosmos motor. Is this true? I need something in which the tuning is extremely acurate.

1RedR1and1RedPEP

Give a good look at the AEM system that is coming out next month.
I recieved a nice demo on the system at the PRI show and i am very impressed. If it does half of what the demo model does, its a bargain at 2000.00
good luck
1R1

Evil Aviator

I thought the M4 was around $4K. Do all the extras cost a lot, or something?

IMO the Motec will give you the most accurate tuning, but I hear that the Autronic is also good in this respect. The next step down would be the Haltech/Wolf/TEC class of EMS, which I think will work fine. Just about any EMS on the market will run the 20B.

20B_FC

Contrary to what everyone thinks, NONE (M4, M48, M8, M800) of the Motec will fire the 20B ignition the way it such be, with a programmable trailing split. On all the Motec, you would use ignition setting #101 which uses ignition 3 outputs to fire 3 twin-tower coil, meaning they reccommend firing leading and trailing together. They is also another way on the Motecs which you would get a fixed trailing split with the use of their Ignition Multiplexer, but it is a FIXED split.

So all this means the Motec is NOT the ultimate solution for the 20B. Because a standard Haltech E6K and even a SDS can give you 3 ignition outputs to fire a lead and trail together. A TEC I with the dual pickup will also give you a FIXED trail split.

I have to agree, Motec does have more accurate and precise output profiles and timing than the other ECU's. But unless you know how to take advantage of it, you probably don't need it.

This goes back to the discussion of why you would need to fire leading and trailing separately. I know several people out there are in fact getting good results from running the leading and trailing together. I'm not going into that subject, but the bottom line is if the factory ECU has a 3D split map, then it may be advantageous to run it. It is the same question, why do you need the trail split on the 13B's?

PK

Greg

Please go into as much detail as possible. The engine has to be reliable and extremely powerful. The tuning aspect is the most important.

Evil Aviator: The wiring harness was quoted to my at a low low price of $1400!!!! They extas are very very expensive and most of the extras are necessities.

tims

I have seen the E6K and the IG5 used to run a three rotor engine. this gives you the 4 ignition outputs that you need to run the three rotor engines as the factory does. The Hitman has used this on his "not a 20b" engine, I believe. I believe the 20b runs the same as the fabricated 3 rotor engines. Check with Haltech to see how this can be accomplished. I can't seem to find the websites of people who have done this install, sorry.

Evil Aviator

Man, I guess that it sucks to pay retail for things. Have you tried to get a sponsorship, or looked for a used Motec?

Contrary to what everyone thinks (hehehe), more power is made by firing the leading and trailing plugs simultaneously. Split timing is only for emissions on street cars. All that stuff about colliding flame fronts is from the ancient days of carbs.

tims

Evil Aviator,
I am glad you are able to make the leading trailing fire at the same time, this simplifies alot of things. I had alot of trouble trying to use this configuration and when I switched to the timing split all my part throttle and mid range problems were solved. I have had many people whose opinions I respect tell me that there is no real need for timing splits on race motors, but in my own experience with my own application the timing split was necessary. seems every engine and application is a little bit different. And I agree if you want to make 800-900hp a $1400 wiring harness should not be any issue as a project that big will need some serious money to be spent not only on the engine but the chassis as well.

13BAce

Yes, Hitman now uses the Haltech E6K with both the leading and trailing firing together. I believe he has the Haltech running in 6 cylinder mode. Check out http://www.hitman.hm/rx7.htm . This is an E6S map from his setup: http://www.hitman.hm/Not20b-7.zip .

riceracing uses autronic on his 13B with both the leading and trailing firing together with good results. Maybe you can ask him how he does it.

13BAce

Greg, John D. said that Microtech is coming out with a system that will run a 3 rotor with the trailing split. It's supposed to come with a keypad like the Wolf. Try asking him more about it, or look on the web. You could also try to see if the Wolf 3D V4 will do the split, if that's what you're after.

The TEC I made for a 20B will be very accurate on the ignition side. You'll have a fixed split, but you'll be able to decide how much of a split you want. That system is about $2700.

Evil Aviator

Yes, I think that you have to do whatever works for you. There are many variables, such as application, EMS type, induction system, injectors, tuner ability, etc. which will be factors in each individual's engine. I just want to point out that I don't have mine running yet because I am still waiting on the EMS, so it is quite possible that I will have problems, too. If I do have problems, then I fully intend to bug the heck out of my own stable of "people whose opinions I respect" who ALL run simultaneous timing on their engines and are telling me to do the same.

I know two people who have used the Microtech, and both say that it is not very well made. One of them laughed at it and thought it was a POS, but he is very biased IMO. The other one (totally unbiased IMO) says that the hand controller buttons sometimes take several presses to activate, and he thought that the overall unit was kinda cheap, but liked it anyway. You may want to check it out first before you lay out the money.

The Wolf3D 4.0 will not fire split ignition for anything over 2 rotors (I already asked, hehehe). It needs to run the 20B in 6-cylinder mode just like the Haltech and Motec units. Wolf intended to make a 20B split ignition add-on unit for the 3.x, but from what I hear, they didn't think that the contractor's product was up to par, so they canceled the project. To be honest, I don't think that there is enough demand to bother with such a limited product, but it would be nice to incorporate into the EMS some day.

20B_FC

On the subject of 20B ECU's, has anyone looked into the toggle characteristics of the stock Cosmo ignitors? We all know how Mazda has the trailing toggle setup on the FC's. The Cosmo ignitors has something similar. The existing E6K cannot output this toggle to make it work because the cosmo ignitors require 2 toggle signals per ignitor.
Like the FC toggle ignitor, one of the inputs to the cosmo ignitor is a constant distributor-like signal (IGT-T). This signal can be replicated on the E6's by running in 6-cylinder distributor mode.

Also, on the E6's, if you select 6cylinder and rotary setting, you will get a leading firing on the IgnOut and trailing firing on DigOut1. The default trail split window on the E6 software will come up. You can control trail split via the 2000rpm below and above methods on the Haltechs.

However, this whole setup still does not "distribute" the sparks to the correct rotor. You can use the RB "Plexiglass Coffee Can" distributor.

Enough ranting,

PK

13BAce

Yeah, I heard that the current Microtech units aren't very good, but I thought that maybe the new one would be better. I believe that someone on the forum is using one, either rx720bt or bermuda20b.

Too bad about the Wolf 3D V4 not doing the split. I was hoping to see somebody do it, even if I'm still not ready to undertake the project.