LT8TurboII

iTrader: (2)

How much does the Wolf 3d V4 run cost wise? Just curious.

Daniel

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

-Wolf 3D Version 4 Kit
Kit includes:
ECU, ECU mounting brackets, Main loom, Input trigger cable, Ignition output cable,
Window sticker, User guide, Installation manual, Warranty card

$1095.00

-Wolf 3D Version 4 HC Kit
Kit includes:
Wolf 3D Version 4 ECU, ECU mounting brackets, Wolf 3D version 4 hand controller,
Main loom, Input trigger loom, Ignition output cable, Plug kit, Air temperature sensor,
Water temp sensor, PC link cable, PC software, Window sticker, Installation manual,
User guide manual, Warranty card

$1395.00

LT8TurboII

iTrader: (2)

I just downloaded the Wolf software and I must say I am very impressed.

Now if we can just keep Max and Kabooski out of this thread, it looks like we can keep it civil. I am personally amazed

pengarufoo

I love it when people say they are experienced with both then they enumerate pros and cons of both, and closed loop isnt mentioned anywhere in their post.


Microtech - no closed loop


Haltech - closed loop standard

since most of you guys probably drive your cars on the street regularly, closed loop should be pretty high on the priority list. Without it, your fuel economy is going to suck more than it would under normal pported exhaust rotary conditions.


Not to mention the microtech only supports fuel cut style rev limit.

Haltech supports fuel cut or ignition cut, ignition cut style is preferable over the fuel cut on a rotary. There are other forms of rev limit available with standalones, but the scope of this thread is essentially microtech vs. haltech.

$150FC

closed loop is not very helpful imho. if it's tuned right you won't need it, anyway.

that said, Steve Kan is tuning my car, so I chose Haltech.

the difference between an LT8 and an E6K/X is small enough that one should definitely go with whatever the tuner prefers.

Trav

Keep me posted, sounds like the right way to go and I'd like to be able to do the same.

LT8TurboII

iTrader: (2)

I am expirienced with both, and I do not see closed loop to be a big deal, I can get well over 23mpg on my LT8 on the highway (not switching maps just the way i keep it tuned) with no problem. Would it be possible to eak out a little more with closed loop? Possibly, but i do know Matt (Hitman) Lecher turned closed loop off on all the E6K cars he tuned for us in Atlanta....

And as far as the fuel cut rev limiter, what the problem with that? My car hits the clutch switch limiter at 5500 all the time, and has hit the 8000rpm cut on occasion.


Daniel

pengarufoo

Hit your fuel cut type rev limit @ WOT under heavy load and plenty boost.

Fuel cut is the very reason people need a FCD in TurboII's.

bejbis

if i were you, i would listen to LT8Turbo2, hes very knowlageable in this.

also, the reason you need FCD in a Tii is because the stock ecu dosnt cut all the fuel like a microtech. it cuts half the fuel, in turn leaning the motor out causeing detonation.

as for the MT vs. HT, im running a MT cause i wanted to learn to tune my car myself. and the LT8 seemed the most user friendly for me not knowing much about tuneing. i didnt want to get a stand alone, and look at bars i could move in DOS. i wanted to look at digital gauges, graphs, and fancy logs so i could see exactly what changed when and where when i changed a setting. for what its worth, gave me a lot better understanding of what i was doing with the stand alone. hope that made some sence. plus it didnt have all the fancy settings that the haltech has. so its less i can screw up

Daniel

pengarufoo

Well, in that case, by all means. LT8Turbo2, tell us everything we should know about why the Microtech is better than the Haltech.




If I were you, bejbis, I would pull my head out of my ***.


Thank you, drive through.

Fingers

pengaru -- come on buddy let everybody speak their minds

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Vosko had the microtech unit on his t2 and sold it for an E6k. I asked him why, and he said the microtech was garbage. Someone else I know said the mircotech was just a bunch of fancy new gizmos, with nice software, and unproven..

I've never seen the Microtech in action, just pfc/e6k/wolf3d...

NZConvertible

The stock MAP sensor can't read higher than ~15psig.

No, the FCD is needed because of how low the fuel cut is, not because it's fuel that's cut. If the ignition was cut at 8.6psi, you'd still need something to get around it.

Do you really think Mazda are that stupid? All of the fuel is cut to one rotor, while the other rotor continues unchanged. There is no lean condition.

Everyone else is behaving and keeping this thread flame-free and civil. Please do the same.

While I personally prefer the Haltech products, MicroTech products are far from unproven. The company has been selling EFI products in Australia for over 15 years. There are literally thousands of cars runing them.

pengarufoo

it's all good, it just irritates me when people are like listen to so and so he knows his stuff. Everyone should speak there mind and question what everyone thinks/says. Telling people to listen to their peers is telling them to be sheep, which I don't appreciate.

Evil Aviator

The Wolf has always had excellent software, which has been one of its main selling points for years. The new Haltech E11 looks like it also has some good software and some nice data display functions, and the LT8 seems to have pretty good software also. The E6K DOS software is... (trying to be positive here)... excellent at selling the other products I just mentioned.

I'm working on it. There are still a few problems that I am still sorting out:
1) Not every EMS goes about things the same way. This makes comparisons difficult.
2) The EMS makers change their products constantly. No joke, sometimes they change month to month.
3) It is difficult to get hard facts because the official literature sometimes does not agree with the user's experience or perceptions. See my next paragraph for an example.

Hmm, so when the LT8/LTX8 Spec Sheet states "Max Readable Boost with Internal MAP Sensor 25 PSI", they mean 25psia instead of 25psig? That still doesn't sound right because 15psig would be about 30psia, more or less. Any insight into this?
http://www.microtechefi.com/downloads/LT8specsheet.pdf

Also, I need to try and find my reference for the 20psig I posted. This EMS research stuff isn't easy.

That's because most people who have tried the closed loop function realize that it isn't all that great, and the same (or better) results can be achieved with good base map tuning. Really, the only advantage of closed loop is that it can stay fairly well in tune with changes in the engine due to wear, deposits, etc. This is why the factory uses closed loop control. This is also why factories use AFM and MAF systems instead of speed-density types that are more common in the aftermarket performance market.

I agree with all 3 statements.

Evil Aviator

Two questions:

1) In the first kit listed, how do you tune the EMS with no hand controller and no PC software or cable? Is this just for people who already have a Wolf hand controller and/or software, or is it assumed that the end user will download the software and outsource a cable?

2) Are prices in USD?

NZConvertible

I can't speak for the ECU, but I know the stock MAP sensor reads 0V at -15psig (0psia) and 5V at 15psig (30psia). Refernce voltage is 5V so that's the highest the sensor can read. The LT8 may be able to interpret values that indicate over 15psi, but it won't get them from the stock MAP sensor.

Some people say that MicroTech's use of stock sensors is a good selling point, but I disagree. If I was forking out all that money to replace my ECU I'd want to know the sensors were up to the task. A brand new ECU using 15yo sensors makes no sense to me.

LT8TurboII

iTrader: (2)

If you actually go and read my post I never said the Microtech was better than the Haltech at all. In fact the only thing I said was that the Autronic etc were in fact much more advanced.

You are looking to do nothing but turn this what has been so far a VERY good discussion into yet another flame war.

I have hit my fuel cut at high revs and alot of boost. And I still stand by the fact an engine cannot and will not spontaneously combust compressed air without fuel. If that happened air compressors would be big giant ticking time bombs. Engines work with air, spark and fuel, remove any of the above and not much will happen.

Daniel

NZConvertible

This seems so obvious, yet fuel cut is still feared as an engine killer. I don't understand why.

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

No idea. This was taken from Rank Rotary in Australia. They used to offer V3 to v4 upgrades, that is why I had them bookmarked, and just copied the info.

I'm pretty sure its in AUS $...

Kai

Here is a question for the pros: Can both systems easily pass emissions with the right tuning? I'm just getting into this whole mess, and if I can pass emissions with one and not the other, that would be the one I'd have to go with.

Evil Aviator

Looks like the first kit is for an upgrade or professional installation. Individual users are going to need either a hand controller or PC software w/interface in order to tune it, preferably both. I assume prices are AUD.
http://www.rankrotary.com.au

The price for the full Wolf V4 kit with hand controller and PC software is about $1,380 USD in the US.
http://www.checkpointmotors.net/Prod...ail.asp?pID=13

BDC

I agree entirely on the technical points.

B

visi0n

iTrader: (1)

with closed loop on i saved 40mpg per tank on my piston motor on the E6k.

LT8TurboII

iTrader: (2)

I do concede it is a feature I left off of the E6K list, I do not however concede that my gas mileage sucks without it.

I have an LT8 on my car with no idle control, no closed loop. I have NO problems (after the car was properly tuned) getting well over 22mpg, and having my car idle properly with lights, AC, stereo and wipers running. My car STILL idles more consistantly than it did stock and if I try I am also able to still get better gas mileage than the stock ECU, even when I was in a 2D mode. I also have my car tuned extremely rich for cruise and it could stand to be leaned out quite a bit more. I have no issues with cold starts after I have tuned those correction maps either.

And I still want and answer as to why one of the worlds most famous haltech tuners diabled closed loop on the ECU's he tuned while I was in Atlanta (atleast on the 2 cars I have ready access to.) These were both registered street driven cars, and both got better gas mileage on the way back then they did on the way up with closed loop enabled.

THIS IS NOT TO SAY NO ONE WILL HAVE PROBLEMS. I can only speak and will only speak for myself and my own expieriences.

As far as fuel cut limiters, you yourself has said Brian that as long as the Microtech is operating in sequencial mode there is no harm in it. If the ECU was operating in a batch fire setup it would be possible for damage to occur and I will say that. However, as long as the Microtech is operating as the manufactureer advertises this should not be a problem, and we have no reason to doubt Microtech or Microtech Global on these issues as they have been more than helpful and upfront to customers, and that is more than what can be said for Haltech USA and Haltech AU at times.


The bottom line comes down to each ECU has its own points of contention. I really agree with Evil Aviator in the fact that the ECU should be purchased as a package from your chosen tuner. If I lived in Garland Texas and had Brian on tap and ready I would 100% have an E6K in my car. I have never said it is a piece of trash or that there is anything wrong with it as a system. I have only pointed out what I feel are the strong and weak points are for it. I have not brought up the fact that there are possible ignition timing issues or any of the other stuff the "anti-Haltech Zealots" rant and rave about. Why? I have never witnessed this and so to me it is only heresay and I will presume it so until myself or somone I trust see's this first hand. The points I have brought up may differ for other people as to what they need to get out of an ECU. On the other hand if I had Jon or Dale on tap, I'd have to stick with my Microtech. I really had neither on hand so as previously stated I went with the Microtech because it was pretty much unknown in the states at the time and I wanted to give it a try.


Scott, ever feel like going back to that bridge ported RX3 I rode in about 5 years ago in Tampa, I am starting to think I should form a group of caburation zealots...who's with me.