SPiN Racing

Evening all,

I am posting this in the general EMS forum because I am not concerned with which ECU is better or worse. Nor do I give a damn about hearing why product X is better than Y.
Realistically if I had 100G I would have Rick Engmann put a Motec in the car, tune it and call it done.
I have been doing the stand alone install and tune thing for more than 10 years, and done many installs on rotaries, and even a honda transplant into a Motorsports Elise.

SO

Here is the question for you all. (Yes I used search)

What options are there for Ignition Triggering with stand alone ECUs?

Answers I have already figured.

Dizzy from a FB. Hell NO.
FC crank trigger. Hall effect. Splice in your own ECU. (What I have been doing for years)
FD crank trigger. Splice in your own ECU. Front cover swap to non-FD, plus pully changes?
??
MSD Flying magnet crank trigger? There are only 4.. so you need to run a dizzy, or add another magnet? And somehow mount the trigger?

What other options are there?

I have zero issue with TIGing on a mount, and using someone elses crank trigger, and wheel. But Im looking for stable options.

I am not gonna go cheap. Cheap is not an issue. I want reliable and stable trigger input. Simple. This is for my street car, but I want to get it proven before I risk my race motor with it.

I get trigger errors once in a while as it is. This is with a variety of installations, and wiring schemes. This is fairly common I am reading with the FC triggering option. The FD option I understand doesnt have as many false triggering problems?

I mentioned the MSD trigger option simply because I could go to MOST autoparts stores and buy a trigger. If I am at Sebring or Daytona, there is a very good possibility that I can find a local shop that has one. Ordering a X brand unobtanium trigger from BFE will be a pain. **Unless it is so stable/reliable that potential triggering problems arent an issue any longer.**

Open to options here.
Brand isnt an issue. But.. for example I will not be buying a whole Electromotive ignition setup just to assist an existing ignition setup. If they make a replacement set of parts that incluse a wheel and trigger that I can retrofit to something else.. ... Thats an option.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

The stock FC trigger is not Hall effect. It's is a variable reulctor.

Electromotive, SDS, and Redline/Pantera 882 uses a Motronic wheel. Motec, Pectal, Bosch, EFI Tech. and the real high end stuff can do about anything. Haltech will only use one of the Mazda 24-1 configurations or a "standard" trigger. Microtech and I believe AEM are limited to the Mazda 24-1. No idea on Wolf. Megasquirt can be configured for about anything if you have the time and know how. It's more a question of what system will you be running than what trigger do you want to run. Unless you're running a Motec you're limited to the triggers that ECU is configured to accept.

The definition of the Haltech standard trigger is one trigger per ignition event. In the simplest form you could build a crank trigger wheel with only two magnets for a two-rotor application. One magnet pole north facing the other south facing. With one twin-trigger Hall sensor (triggers one channel on north and two channels on south) you can get two trigger events and one home event out of the two trigger wheel. This system is simple but custom. It could be used with Haltech, Motec, or Megasquirt.

There are advantages to a multi-tooth wheel like a Motronic for a good processor. A 60-1 wheel will feed much more data to a processor than a 2 trigger wheel like I described in the 3rd paragraph.

Since you're not going cheap there is no reason not to go Motec. I've spent a lot of time looking at the Redline system and they have some very nice specs. They'd be high on my list as well. Also, there is nothing wrong with using an FD wheel with another front cover (opens up your options). We've fitted them to 1st gen engines. I also like crank triggers v. the dizzy style trigger of the 2nd gen. The crank trigger eliminates the slop in the gear drive which can stack up and create timing irregularities.

SPiN Racing

Hmmm lot of information there.
I appreciate the time to write it up.

Im at work so am limited on my net access. I believe I have a slew of options on the wolf for triggering, but need to look it up. I DO know I need to have some sort of reference pulse.
I believe the wolf can use the stock FC crank trigger on the V4 and later models, but I need to look in the manuals, as its been a bit since I tossed one in. IIRC a TII I did a 4.X on had a stock trigger, and utilised the leading and trailing triggers. Its been a couple years.. and it was one of the first 4.0 wolfs so Im fuzzy on what was done originally.

Hmm
Will have to find the motec dealers and see what the triggering option parts are.

I will put an update as I get more info and or find solid info LOL. (After getting home and looking it up LOL)

Carlos Iglesias

iTrader: (6)

Hey Scott,

I'm removing my E6k and installing a MoTeC M4. As always seems to be inevitable, I'm suffering from the usual case of "project creep" (i.e. project expansion) with all of the option that the M4's additionally capabilities offers. Since I've been doing research on every aspect of EFI design within the ecu's capabilities, I'm freshly familiar with some of the triggering issues you asked.

Mr Ludwig has covered a good chunk of the issue, so I won't go over that.

As for the M4, even at it's relatively "outdated" capabilities, it can still do any combination of Hall/magnetic sensor setups, including stock configurations from many OEMs. I've attached the tech drawing for both FC and FD stock systems. As mentioned above, there are "slop" aspects between the two systems that should be considered.

If you're interested, all other MoTeC tech drawings (including the myriad trigger options) are available here:
MoTeC Tech Drawings.

An unorthodox setup that one of the Skyline guys on the EFI101 Forum uses has recently piqued my curiousity. He's mounted a (Hall?) sensor in a position to trigger off of the flywheel bolts. From an EMF and resolution perspective, I think it offers some obvious advantages, though there are also associated upkeep drawbacks. Anyways, I'm just throwing it out there in case you hadn't heard of the setup.

BTW, if you're interested in learning more about the M4, feel free to PM me with a good contact number and we'll talk.

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

The new MX5 has a nice crank trigger setup, similar to the FD (external teeth on the crank pulley) but using a nice Hall Effect sensor. It uses a weird tooth pattern so you wouldn't want to just install it on your car, but a skilled machinist should be able to fab up something that would both fit correctly and send the proper number of pulses per revolution for your ECU.

It might be a bunch of extra work when there are guys making a ton of power using OEM sensors, but I think that would be a better crank sensor. IMHO, a well-planned and well-built wiring harness should be the first step in preventing false triggers. Use twisted shielded pair for each signal, be sure to only ground the shield at the ECU not at the sensor. This is the type of wire I'm thinking of. The website specifies that it's shielded, but doesn't mention the word "twisted," I presume that's being shown in the diagram but you might want to call to double-check. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...edmotefzel.php

SPiN Racing

Heya thanks for the info.. and yes. The wolf wiring is twisted for shielding. HOWEVER. As with network cable etc, there are different levels of shielding depending on the wire.
I will be re-running the trigger wire obviously, and going with a more effective shielding methodology as well.


CARLOS!!!!

Hey man nice to see you are still running around.
I remember the first time meeting you LOL. You had a Wold IIRC in your FD, and were doing a dyno run at um. Crap. It was a drag race shop just north of Tampa International Airport.
I brought my RX3 there and made a run. 12A.. 149 to the wheels from 3K to 9K. Needed to get a older Nikki other than the lame 83 Carb I had on it.

I am downloading the PDFs. I will PM you as well.