I know there are one wire normal, 3 wire heated. Then I saw a 4 wire. is this a wideband.

 

Not nessacarily.

 

Is the haltech sensor that k2rd sells a wideband?

 

I just looked at the site, and if your referring to the $65, its way too cheap to be a wideband O2 sensor.

 

Probably a rarrow band with two heater wires, and signal + ground. You need a controller with a wideband anyway.

-Max

 

i've been seeing these terms thrown around, and since i'm in the planning stages of going standalone EFI, i may as well start learning. here seems as good a place as any ...

what's a wideband oxygen sensor, and what makes it better than the others (heated, singe-wire, etc.)?

 

Most cars come with "narrow band" sensors that are only really accurate at the stoichiometric mixture of 14.7:1. The ECU cycles through the stoich point during cruising to get good fuel economy.

Wideband sensors have a more linear response and an electronically controlled heater circuit to maintain the right temp for accurate operation. The sensor itself does have the controller built-in, but you usually buy a little control box to control the heater and get the voltage output reading.

FJO has some good info, including a graph with voltage versus A/F ratios that shows why narrow band sensors are vitually useless for tuning:
http://www.fjoinc.com/automotive/WBO2details.htm

Also note that most engine management systems run "open-loop" under power (ignoring the O2 sensor signal). And that you cannot replace a narrow band sensor with a wideband and connect it to the stock computer to any useful effect. The normal use for a wideband is to log the A/F ratio along with other engine parameters and use the resulting information to tune the fuel map with a programmable engine management system or some other fuel control device (fuel pressure regulator, piggy back computer, etc.). Lots of people are logging wideband data with the PowerFC and Datalogit combination.

-Max

 

If itt doesn't have five wires... its not a wideband. It needs a nerst cell of some sort in order to control the point where the sensor is sensitive to small changes in A/F. a 'wideband' O2 is really just a narrowband sensor that has the ability to adjust the location of stoic from a richer condition to a leaner one, the ablity to sweep from a rich 'stoic' point to a lean one when used with feedback is what makes them wideband. So if yours only has 4 wires...Vs, GND,Ht+, Ht-, then it can't be 'wideband'.

 

maxcooper~
thanks for the explanation and the link. it's all coming together slowly. i don't think i would NEED a to worry about getting a wideband sensor anytime soon. to me, it would seem that it has a lot more use in forced induction applications where you would be more likely to have huge changes in fuel mixtures because of varying boost. do i have it right?

anyway, i'm not planning to use forced induction (least not for the near future), so at least you've helped me realize that.

 

no, not according to this guy. check out this site:
http://www.lambdaboy.com/wide.html
justin

 

How important ia a controller box? Why can't you just plug the output of the wideband sensor into a datalogit (or similar) and log the voltage? Is there a heater circuit that is more complex than just supplying a set voltage to the wires? That FJO page didnt really tell anything other than the box gives AFR numbers and you can hook a PC or PDA to it.

edit: That lambdaboy page somewhat explains that you need the controller to change the sensors operational efficiency zone, can anybody provide more information?
thanks

 

my greddy af gauge came with a highband what the hell is that.

 

No, you can't.... the way it 'reads' the voltage is actually by measuring the voltage drop accross a fixed resistance (V=I*R ohms law) that the drive current makes. The drive current controlls the point where stoic is.

I'll try to clarify. Look at the voltage vs A/F for a normal narrowband O2 sensor. in the very rich portion of the A/F it reads a voltage close to 1V. At the opposite end of the A/F scale, lean, it reads almost nothing. Most everyone has heard how sensitive these O2 sensors are. over several hundered degrees variance, at say .92V, what could be read as 12:1 could also be 13.5:1, this makes it impractical for actual tuning. In fact there is only one very narrow range where the sensor is more or less insensitive to Temp, that is right around stoic. In this narrow band the output is practically linear( meaning a change in A/F can be equated to a change in Voltage by some fixed ratio) to A/F is about .1 to .2 wide on the A/F scale centered at 14.7:1. Wide band O2 sensors work in the exact same way. the actual ' O2 sensor' part of a wideband is just a narrow band O2 sensor. Widebands have another chamber before the narowband sensor part. in this chamber a current can be added to absorb either the hydrocarbons if injected one way, or free oxygen if injected the other way, so it fools the narrowband section of the sensor into thinking the mixture is richer or leaner than it really is. In this way, the amount of current needed to 'fool' the narrowband portion of the sensor into thinking that the mixture is stoic can be read off, This is compared to a calibrated chart of drive current vs A/F, and out pops the A/F ratio.

You need a calibrated controller to know how much current to inject, using a feedback loop to tell if the given amount of current makes the sensor stoic, and to produce a voltage from the drive current, so that you can read it.

 

I have a Greddy 4 wire A/F meter. It is not wb but it's supposed to be pretty good as far as non-wb go. I used it for 2 weeks, want to buy it??? [have an FJO now - decided to go all out after I had bought the greddy]


David

 

Um the bosch LSM11 sensor is a true wideband sensor and has 4 wires,

 

So you go and be the wise-*** j/k. Yes, it does, it shares the ground with the heater, like the 3-wire o2 sensors that are also common, but it still has the part that counts the nequist (sp?) cell.....

 

TRUE, this is the one I use on my Autronic A model Wide Band Exhaust analyser and it is good enough to self program the ECU (autotune) Pretty Fast and real accurate.

I have spoken to alot of Autronic engine tuners and a majority if not all of them use the base A model WB (4 wire machine) to do this.

From what I have been able to determine it is in the quality of the "box" that will determine how good the readings are, I have been following the Australian DIY WB page for a long time and even went and visited Peter (the guy who builds them) and despite it being a 5 wire unit there is a mixed feed back from people using the unit as to how accurate it is. Everyone I spoke to about the Autronic unit realy loved it, a majority of them were proffessional racers and engine tuners and none had a bad word to say, my other reason for selecting it is it's linearized 0-1v output & 0-5v output (simulataneous) for both ECU auto tune ability and data logging ability for non Autronic cars + other funtional features etc.

Best advise is talk to a whole heap of people who use the units you are looking at, and get feed back on their operation/accuracy if it fits with in your budget and will interface with your other systems then go for that WB meter.

Here is the link to the one I recently

purchased.http://www.autronic.com/analyzer.html


Peter

 

Here is another enthusiasts view on using the 4 wire Autronic WB meter, its a turbo Celica but hey its a good read

http://www.turbocelica.com/Autos/Whi.../TuningLog.htm

I have yet to hear a bad thing about this meter using a 4 wire Bosch sensor. I get mine on Tuesday so I cant wait to use it ! P.S. Before that I was using a Microtech WB that used the same Bosch 4 wire LSM11 sensor, and I never poped a motor while tuning using one of these.

 

It's important that you don't characterize Bosch sensors by the number of wires on them. If I remember correctly, both Bosch WB sensors have four wires, just like the OEM sensors. The LSM11 and LSU4 sensors are quite different from the OEM sensors, of course. I'm hardly the expert on Bosch WB sensors, as I use the NTK UEGO to tune by.

I agree about the Autronic AFM. It's a quality piece, and has the flexibility of having a scaled 5 volt or scaled 1 volt analog output. But for the money, I'd still rather have the MoTeC PLM.

BK

 

Rice,

I reciently purchased a Fuel Tronics WB meter, it seems to be pretty accurate when put beside the autronic meters,

what are you doing with your microtech meter???

Dale

 

Hi Dale

It was a long term loan unit I actually used two different models the over square one (red LED display) and the long thin one (digital display) I liked both of them, I tohought they were ok.

I used the Fueltronics unit too when I was tuning a rally car (quite a while back) running an Autronic ECU, it was a brand new "fresh" unit and it was real consistent with he changes I was making to the Fuel map, responce was quick enough for me.

All of the above units used the LSM11 Bosch sensor. I only realy bought the Autronic cause it can interface with my ECU and I had a spare brand new LSM11 sensor lying around

The Motec PLM seems real good value for money, but had no 0-1v corrected output to suit my shitty Autronic ECU cars (for auto tune)

Dale how have you found the Fueltronics unit ? as I said man I though it was real good with my limited experience of it......excellent price too !

 

Rice,

Where do you get your LSM11 sensors from??

the price that i got the Fueltronics one for was awesome $350 , it is second hand but the sensor is nearlly new!!

i find to very good, it is too fast for me to read the screen and make changes to the ECU, i spoke to fueltronics and they said they can fit a 0-1v or 0-5v output on it so i can log it through the microtech, i just have to find out what input the microtech takes!

another thing i dont like is that it is not back lit! makes it bloody hard to use at night time!

Dale

 

Petroject for the sensors, excellent prices

350 !!!!!! You lucky SOB

Yeah I remember the no back light, but hey you got a bargain bro !

They do resond fast hey, I know the Autronic guys I spoke to said that it is almost a waste of money going for the faster unit, but hte faster the better I suppose......I just could not justify it, that combined with other tuners telling me that they only use the 4 wire was enough to convince me

 

It was too good a deal to pass up on thats for sure,

ill try pectro jet for the sensor,

do they come with the plugs on the sensor??

 

Dale

Petro Ject I just contacted them on 1300 30 40 60

LSM11 Bosch 4 wire sensor

around $270....... tell em you used to buy them when you were with another company, that is what I did

It comes complete with rubber sheath and plugs ready to plug in and run.

I am sure I paid about $260 to $270 there abouts last year, the guy I just spoke to said no worries. I am not sure if any one else does them cheaper, I know some of the Autronic resellers wanted up to $380 for the sensor. When I worked at Autobarn even at Staff price they wanted $310 or there abouts.

See how you go If you find em for cheaper tell me !