23Racer

What an event. This is the first time we have run the car after working out the issues with the timing and intake. We still had the MAPs in it from the last Mosport race date. It starts and runs fine, so we stuck it on the dyno.

The first pull was a joke. The car bucked and snorted and wouldn't take full throttle. The Air Fuel, was showing lean spots where it was going to 17:1, YIIIKES!!!!! The WHP was a monster 91 and the torques were just over 80, LOL. We richened the whole Map by 10% and tried the second run. The car pulled a fair bit harder, but I could only use 3/4 throttle and it bucked at anything below 7,000, unless I breathed the throttle a lot. The second run, we didn't even get a decent pull as the bucking caused the tach signal to fall off the plug wire.

We looked at the Map and we decided to start by richening the bins above 5,000 rpm and throttle openings above 50%. We richened them up by another 10% and kept the same gradients. We ran a third pull and had to abort as somebody forgot to initiate the tracking, but the car felt better, but it still wouldn't take full throttle. So we took a stab at adding even more fuel in 4 bins where we extrapolated that we were at with 100% throttle and 4,000 to 7,000 rpm. We then ran our 4th pull.

The car ran a lot better and we still couldn't use 100 % throttle all the way up, but the car pulled strongly to 8,000 rpm in 4th. On this run, we got 191.8 rwhp and 167.2 ft.lbs of torque. There is still tons to do in the tuning, but we are totally pleased as the car is reacting properly to the tuning changes. The last time we put the car on the dyno with the Holley, it pulled a 185.1 rwhp, so we are looking better, but we don't know by how much until it stops improving. It really seems to like a lot more fuel than it used to and i think we can add some more timing. I cut a deal with the dyno shop and we can go back there when we need to.

We are going to look at the MAPS again and fine tune them after we check the loggings. The car really has a lot of potential left in it, so I expect I will be back at the dyno a few more times before May 13th.

And before you ask, no I don't have any charts this time as the printer was on the fritz, but I am not complaining as things are getting better and better. Oh, yeah, there was no detonation even on the 5th pull and water temps at 210 degrees, air inlet temps at 190 degrees and oil at 180 degrees. A second Oh yeah, the car has so much fuel going through it now, the exhaust makes your eyes water, LOL.

Eric

01Racing

Run 'er to 11,000rpm baby!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Ymh-bkMzc

1st pull I shifted at 6000rpm and dropped to 3,000rpm and it stopped lol. After that the shifts were about 8500rpm and pulled to 11,000..................just for fun lol

To show the difference the dyno makes, our previous dyno's were 270 rwhp and 150 something ftlbs of torque. On the above runs the rwhp was like 250 something but 180 something ftlbs of torque. The only change made was the type of dyno we were testing on...........

full-cruise

iTrader: (5)

that look alittle sketchy ..where are the strap down all i see if front tire shops..

spd

it looks like that's a dyno dynamics

the car gets strapped to the dyno chassis at the back


usually with the straps going over the control arm

R.P.M.

iTrader: (3)

How amazing is that! EFI makes more power than a carb.

Keep up the good work Eric, you realllllyyyy need to get those air intake temps down......190 is rediculous!

01Racing

Cant agree with you Joe lol, maybe EFI will eventually make more HP than a carb on a n/a rotary, but when you add up all the hours and costs it is no where near as cost effective. My old steel sealed bridge made over 220hp at the wheels with about 15 minutes of set up time and the engine is still running 3 years later with the same carb etc on the street of Guyana. EFI is amazing when its a simple plug and play like it is now for most domestics with simple tuning etc. If you put a dollar amount on the hours spent trying to set up and tune, you would easily have spent 10's of thousands if dollars to essentially get maybe 5 horsepower more. The plugnplay EFI (Motec) for my PPort starts at $8500.00, the Weber and manifold are less than $1000.00
I have watched a few teams blow up huge dollar rotaries on the dyno trying to set up their EFI's and you never see that with good old distributors and carbs.

Just my opinion.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

That just sounds like unfamiliarity of EFI than anything else. I've experienced the same thing myself when working with a certain local shop.

The cost is an issue though. Either the system is cheap and requires a lot of knowledge to set up (Megasquirt, for example) or is expensive and comes with massive factory backed support (FAST, for example).

IPWinsor

iTrader: (2)

That's really awesome, Al. But I think you need a louder exhaust.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

23Racer, congrats on getting some progress with getting your car running right. You seriously need to look at those AIT's. 190 is ridiculous. Where is your probe located? Maybe its heat soaking and not getting the right readings. Possibly related to your issues? Also, hows your ignition doing? What type of AFR's is it running? I wouldn't mind having a look at the map.

01Racing, I hate to be blunt but just because a huge majority of people don't know what they are doing, doesn't mean the technology is flawed. EFI will will ALWAYS make more power and deliver that power smoother making it easier to put the power to the ground. This is an unquestionable fact no matter how you look at it, whether its 5 hp or 20 hp, its still horsepower.

I understand why the old timer don't like to change away from their carbs. They no longer have control of something simple to change and require external help from people who do know.

An N/A PP is the easiest thing on the planet to tune. I can't comprehend how anyone could blow one up. It's an N/A for f@cks sake that runs WOT 95% of the time. I could teach my 12 and 14 year old sisters how to tune them in 20 minutes to get near optimal.

Anyone that spends $8,500 on a motec to run a PP is either balling out their ******** or just plain dumb. For about 2 grand, you can convert to EFI all-in (ECU, coils, throttle body, injectors, FPR etc.). If you go part shopping for used stuff, you can do it for less. Maybe I'm missing something?

thewird

distr0

iTrader: (1)

i can understand carbs for nostalgia and 'true'-ness of classic unmolested examples... but for power, reliability and tune-ability, there's really no excuse for not running a proper fueling system.

why not take it one step further. just convert to coal & steam power, then you can 'tune' with some of these?

Black13B

iTrader: (1)

Electronic Fuel Injection - Replacing **** from 1882 since 1957.

01Racing

Okay dude 1st thing, everything I own except my Rotary is fuel injected. Fuel injection is awesome when you are working with a proven and supported format. It seems you have much more wisdom that us guys who have been doing this for 30+ years so please do share how I can fuel inject my P.Port with a proven system that it truly a bolt on application like the systems for all the domestic cars out there for around $1000.00 - $2000.00? I dont have an unlimited supply of funding for my toys so tell me again how $8000.00 to gain 5-20 horsepower is an effective and smart investment?

Maybe you should ask Dave at Mazdees why his 20B is carbed not EFI, and maybe you should talk to the Can-Saf guys about how much time and money it took to make their P.Port 20B work. And I also assume that you have built and tuned many P.Ports in your day with EFI so please take the time and share that with us old timers cause I would love to be leading edge for almost no $$$ and time.

IAN

iTrader: (3)

Daves 20B is EFI.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Daves's 20b is running EFI and he himself now agrees its better so give him a call. I should know, I tuned it )_). An hour or two on the dyno and some minor optimizations at the track and its been running mint since.

I'm on my phone but ill make up a price list later of everything you'd need to go efi along with prices.

Don't know what issues can-saf with their 20b but my gutt tells me to blame the Haltech.

Can't say I've put together any pports but I could if I wanted to. As for tuning that's the easy part LOL. Would be more concerned about setting up the rest of the car then the drivetrain. That's where the old men with 30+ years experience come in handy ^_^.

thewird

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

To only add a little fuel to the fire, I just Googled up the first domestic bolt on EFI system I could think of, the "Edlebrock Pro-Flo". The first page was the Summit Racing catalog which lists the sytem as $3639.95 US. That's a system designed to convert many carbureted V8s to EFI. However it still uses a distributor, doesn't include a fuel pump, and oddly, doesn't include an IAT (huh?). Of course it is bolt on to the V8s it is designed for. However, we all know that "bolt on" is a misnomer. Change the heads and the manifold no longer fits. In the same way, one can't expect a universal part like a standalone ECU to fit any application directly. Especially one as radically different than stock as a peripheral port.

There are of course "bolt on" standalones for the RX-7 that use the factory wiring. Haltech is the first that comes to mind with that option. There is a Megasquirt PNP that can be configured to the rotary just by setting the jumpers on the adapter board.

The number $8000 is a pretty good number for some systems. A local shop had a Diablo sport system installed when the original Megasquirt install went sideways (NOT MY FAULT! Try explaining to a carburetor person that, shocker, all 8 injectors must be the same). Once they optioned out the system, they had nearly $8000 into it, including the fees from the Diablo techs to tune the thing. However they needed that support because truthfully, they knew nothing of fuel injection and had not a clue to where to start. So they paid dearly for it.

EFI is a learning experience for those who didn't cut their teeth on it, much like anything else is. The familiarity of carbs and their simplicity has made them a staple in almost every racing environment. And truthfully, peak power is likely the same in most conditions whether carb or EFI. Though at least with EFI, one doesn't need to re tune when the air temp changes a little. And since the entire fuel curve can be optimized, it's all those midrange conditions that are where it starts to pay off. But as with a lot of things, the learning curve can be steep and if the peer group doesn't include those already in the know, then things can become an act of frustration.

85RotaryRocket

iTrader: (1)

Nice numbers.

Not to thread jack, but does any one know of a kit for a N/A 13b carb to FI? my 13 b is carb and am entertaining doing the conversion to F.I. . also, its been built and ported so buying a stock NA with F.I. is not an option, even if it saves me some $$. Thanks.

Alak

iTrader: (9)

85rotaryrockey: you can get carburetor style throttle bodies which replace the carb with an efi unit. Not entirely cost effective as previous posters have stated.

I priced out an Fcon vpro new for my FC and it was the higher side of $6000 without a tune $130/HR + Hookup. Carbs are a cheap, reliable and cost effective way to make consistent horsepower and results.

But efi really is space aged in comparison. But costs more and i feel not as reliable only due to the electrical and complexity. Not to say carbs can't be complex, or expensive ( see a Ferrari v12 with 6 weber carbs that needs a tune up). But for the purposes of rotary, carbs just work But like Aaron said, you can get so much more from efi than peak numbers.

01Racing

This is what I was referring to as a plug and play EFI system.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...et_intro.shtml

I can sell this set up to anyone for $ 2019.53 and make money, if I could do this with my Rotary I would in a minute without any fear.

full-cruise

iTrader: (5)

we use the same setup on the dyno but we still strap the front end down. better safe then sorry for us