**** welding. I'm certified Mig and Stick (have been for 16 years). I left that **** cause there's to many "wannabe" welders and to many mexicans doing it now. Most welders can lay a bead and that's it. They have no skill and will do the job for $10hr. **** that, I need at least $18 to even consider it.

 

Ya, my buddy from the truck club got divorced after he joined the army. Not because of the army, but I'm sure the instability of his employment didn't help, and then his training (in Borden) he was away from home since. Some girls can handle it, other girls can't. I never asked about it, but that's my guess.

My dad's a Millwright, he's got 37 years in the plant next year. He got a diploma in electrical and electronics when he was younger, and about 12 years ago he got his diploma for Industrial Mechanic (I have his resume on me since I wrote it for him, lol) that work let him take time off of work and go to school He's probably one of the most educated person there, but most are lifers because they have only highschool, some not even completed highschool, another didn't complete elementary school. One guy can't even read and write and the company helps him "pass" his tickets and certifications, despite he's useless except for driving the towmotor, but enough about him and how messed that company is.

My dad has to retire next year since they lost their 35-and-out in their last contract, so he's 58 and would have to work until 65 (he's one of the few that lucked out, he'll be like the 3rd in that company to actually retire) and it's not an easy job. Anyway, he was actually thinking of putting his resume in at Union Hall for part time work when he retires. Good for a retired old man, but not for a young guy trying to make a living...

 

Women have needs lol we all know that, and they want to do this, and that, and you can't do that with no money, but when your laid off you have all the time in the world, just no money, now I have the money, and no time.

Your dad must work for a really small company to be one of three retirees, the Union Hall was good, but the travel, and inconsistent work really make it unbearable, I want to work, and stay working, and thats why I am happy where I am now, other than it taking me 5 years to get this job, it has been my dream job for a long time. Like you said good for a guy looking to buy a new truck, or a vacation, but hard on the young bucks!

 

It greatly bothers me when university graduates say things like this. It's a bit like saying that all people who chose not to get a degree are too stupid to realize how bad of a decision it was. It's offensive to those who acquired the skill and experience without having to pay for it.

Not everyone has to spend years in school to understand how the real world works and I'd put forth an argument that spending 4+ years in school after highschool slows down that understanding. Sure, social skills improve and many people (though not all) may develop a work ethic, but education is an artificial environment and represents very little of what the work force is.

I say this as someone who started work at 17, went full time at 19 upon graduation from highschool, and has worked for the same company since.

 

Aaron, i'm not trying to be offensive, and it isn't a commentary on the intelligence level of those that do not get a degree. Also, that you have been able to make a successful career working for the same company since you were 17 puts you in the minority. Most canadians will change jobs at least twice in their lifetime.

It's a fact that not everyone can earn a university degree. Whether that's due to financial constraints, lack of desire, interest, drive, or aptitude, the end result is the same. They go into fields that require them to be educated in different ways. It is certainly not my stance that all that do not go to university are ignorant of the world, or that it was a bad decision. I'm saying that for me, finishing my education gave me a specific perspective on life, people, and the world that I don't think I could have gotten any other way. I also find that those without that experience cannot understand it's value. I work with a number of tradespeople that eventually went back to school and got their university degree, and while they didn't see the value before they got it, they certainly see it now.

As far as skills go, I have a huge respect for people in trades. Welding and fabrication in particular are skills that I wish I had. The level of training and apprenticeship hours that are required are akin to university training, although certainly more practical rather than academic. But something that both types of training have in common is that they demonstrate that you can start a huge task, set goals, and work over the course of years to achieve them.

I would hope that in any endeavour you would want the most qualified / highly skilled person working for you. While those two things don't always go together, most of the time formal training + drive = a high degree of skill.

BTW, i've been following your Rx5 restoration with great interest.

Matt

 

University creates segregation, by being available only to a portion of the population who are more privileged, both academically and socially (income). Plain and simple.

What many people fail to realize is that this is the type of exclusion that many employers are looking for, they could care less what the hell you learn while in class or what your paper hanging on the wall looks like. A great majority of people with University degrees will not use their learned knowledge in their actual job, they will be trained just like someone who had not attended. They may not even be as well suited for the job as another applicant without a degree. But, completing a degree demonstrates qualities like initiative and commitment, and in this case a University degree speaks louder than a simple work Resume.

You can bury your head in the sand all you want and say that University is over-rated, just like I could say the weather shouldn't be this damn cold. In the end we both look like ostriches, and University graduates still take precedence when applying for jobs 9/10 times.

This is not to say that anyone who graduates University is smart, or anyone who does not is any less, don't kid yourself. I've done the trades and am currently doing University part-time through correspondence, but for the sake of my future I personally wouldn't go back for anything.

 

I just see getting diplomas/degrees as pieces of paper that show that you know something to potential employers. You NEED that piece of paper in this world, cause sadly, it doesn't matter how much you know for almost all cases. Unfortunately Aaron, you are a rare case, but glad you're doing well. Hopefully nothing ever happens to your employment, but if it does, I hope your experience counts for something in your field, cause I'd be affraid that some/most places wouldn't matter unless you've got some sort of post-secondary education. Unless you've got certifications and tickets, that's a different story where you should be able to get by. I know just a few people with just their high school, one with his GED that's going to school part time now to be a mechanic, one is just finishing college in social work. Both had to start something in terms of post-secondary cause they were very limited in jobs. My buddy is finishing his social work schooling this month and loves it, and love finally having a good, well paying stable job. One friend who didn't finish his high school is constantly struggling for jobs and money, but when you've got a girl and a kid, he relies on her paychecks to pay the bills. It's a shitty scenario, but he brought it on himself.

I've just got a college diploma, I just didn't see myself fitting or learning in the University environment. Mind you too, I started into the computer tech field just as the .com bubble was bursting. I had my own buisness for several years fixing computer, I worked at a local computer store for a few years, left those for a job with Microsoft (got laid off after a year and a half), worked for a small mobile communications company that did contract work for Motorola and GE, left that to work with Stryker Canada working with medical equipment. Even with all that, I couldn't find any work for a year and a half before I joined the military. Survived fixing computers, installing car stereos and remote starters, and job a job as a valet driver. I never understood why I couldn't I couldn't find a job. Maybe it's from jumping around too much, maybe they're scared of me being overqualified, maybe it could be many things, but it sucked and still sucks. I had companies call me, but wouldn't even give me a chance once they found out where I lived, because of my location or "too far", despite that I was willing and able to relocate, that was total BS.

One thing about getting those "pieces of paper" is that I probably screwed myself over a bit not getting my Microsoft A+. For the longest time I refused to accept that I needed it. I was giving support to people that had theirs, people that I had no idea how they got theirs. This one guy bragged that he got it on his 5th try...to me, that piece of paper meant nothing anymore form that. When I got my job with Microsoft, I beat out 49 other people. There was written computer knowledge troubleshooting test, verbal (in both English and French) on top of the regular interview. I knew my **** forsure, but the problem I see now, is that employers only know me based what they see (or skim) through in their huge piles of resumes and applications. My brain isn't included with my resume.

 

I'll bet that anees didn't even have a clue that his simple question would spark this much of a scrap...

 

I know you didn't mean anything offensive about it, but the statement above sure reads that way. Taken literally, it means that you believe that those who have not gone through university have no way of understanding how it will effect their life. I'm not singling you out necessarily, you just happen to be the person who supplied the quote that I have heard from so many others as well.

It really does annoy me that many people (not implying that you are doing this) who have gone through post-secondary education have it in their heads that anyone who has not received a degree is somehow inferior. I do run into this often; I have been told that I should have gone to school and "made something of my life" while I am literally solving an issue that the graduate has absolutely no clue how to even approach. And then I go home in the evening, and put to use skills that this graduate doesn't have. And I may just be a pompous arrogant ***, but frankly, I could acquire any of those skills that the graduates I deal with value just by cracking open a book. Yet in most cases, they have no clue on acquiring my skills without great training.

Partially, I may invite that kind of attitude when I pull up in my bridgeported RX-7 with my long hair messed up from the wind, wearing fairly casual (though tasteful) attire (I refuse to dress "business") so I can see how they my form that view. And in truth, it evaporates quickly. But always does leave a sour taste in my mouth from people with letters after their names.

Yes, that is a better clarification of the statement: "I find that those without....cannot understand". I'd have to agree with you on that from my own personal experience involving a few of my friends who cut their education short LONG before they should have. Because these people, as much as I value their friendship, have no bloody skills. They are the type of person who complain about all the "BS" they have to go through at work, not realizing that part of work is dealing with "BS" nor realizing that their career options are highly limited without even a full highschool diploma. My advice is always the same: go to school.

I think I am indeed in a unique position because I'm an outside observer in my environments. Universally, many people suck at their jobs whether they have a degree or not. It boils down to one thing which many assume getting a degree teaches, but in reality it does not: critical thinking. A person is either born with it or they are not, it cannot be taught.

That's what all my rambling is about; critical thinking. A key part of a skilled person is this ability, which sometimes I refer to as "synthesis". Being able to synthesize knowledge is what separates those who can do from those who need to be trained to do, or those who can't do even with training. Which applies to people with degrees, without, in school, or working the farm since they were 4. The ability to go from the A to the B to the D without having to go through C is what matters and his highly rare.


Sweet! I'm currently editing part 8, the part in which I tap some holes, blast and paint the engine parts prior to assembly.



That's something that bothers me to the very core. It really does chap my *** that I would be looked over because I don't have a degree, yet it is almost with certainty that my skills are at or above those with the degrees. Yeah, arrogance and pompous I may be but I've also spent 31 years doing stuff that everyone told me I couldn't, breaking many of the rules and coming out ahead because of it, and just plain ignoring the advice given by society, so I think I've earned a little soapbox time. I guess in a society one must play the games of the society and it may be my fault that I am not. But then again, the way I see it, it is the employers loss and it's not like I will ever be in need of a job.

Society in general puts such a high degree in degrees that it is unsurprising this takes place. But man, what a downer for those of us who loathe school. What did I learn in the 13 years of my life that was wasted in school? Social skills I guess. How important spelling and grammar is. That's about it. School ended up just being a gateway to my co-op placement which completely changed my attitudes about what it takes to get by in the real world.

I say screw those places! I'm not a good fit for them, and they're not a good fit for me. The key to not worrying about loss of a job is a diverse set of skills, something that training and education with a single goal of a degree in mind cannot generally give.

It's different too when there is a family involved.

It's funny you should mention A+, MSCE, etc. because after being in the industry so long, I have learned to automatically discount anyone with those initials after their name. The **** that I have seen come from those with "certifications" makes my starfish pucker. I'm sure you have some stories, and I without question have some whoppers. I'm thinking back to an MCSE/A+ that I have met in real life to got it "just for the paper" and not because he thought it would give him skills, and I honestly can't recall even one. Now of course, being an MCSE/A+ does not make one incompetent. But in my experience, I have found to take those letters as a sign that a high degree of bumbling is about to take place.

Well that's a good ramble for a Friday at 5 o'clock. Off to Toronto now...I hope none of this is taken as insulting, nor was it really even directed at those whom I quoted...The quotes were just a jumping off point, nothing more. I've had this building for a while...

 

not much people do what they like, get some air, go out and socialize and get back to studying for your career.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

 

I was a licensed mechanic, got board with it, but needed a new challenge, joined the army as a vehicle tech, and now I'm back to loving my job. As a civy mechanic I was making 40k / year, now as a corporal I'm doing better then that, and I'm twisting wrenches on tanks everyday!

I say stay in school and get a good job, but if you are really going to LOVE your job as a mechanic then go for it!

 

i am a mechanic/fabricator...def dont do it lol...while i love welding and fabricating..and its hard work...i would love to be a doctor or something else...too late in the game for me to go that route.....stay in school....

 

i also went to college and have a BA degree lol..damn i must be the most stupidest ever

 

Aaron it's funny you mentioned those things. My grade 7 teacher who lived right around the corner (whom I despised and she reciprocated after an incident involving eggs and her brick outer wall) caught up with me years later, asking me what I was doing. Told her I was in the trades to become a mechanic while trying to figure out what to do eventually with my future. She told me "You can do better." I mean, she was a bitch, but you're right about the way society feels about degrees and I agree with you, I ******* hate doing school part-time. I'm not even doing it because I need it for a job, I run my own business successfully. I'm just doing it to keep my doors open in case some day I need to use it.

Unfortunately our options are generally to either play ball or find a new game. Not to mention changing views is a hard thing to make happen from the outside.

I have to say that comment "it is the employers loss and it's not like I will ever be in need of a job. " I hope that this remains true for you, honestly, but it sounds to me just like all the old-timers who were in a trade for their entire lives confidently and successfully only to get laid off and unable to find work. Imagine being an auto-worker in Detroit with that attitude a few years ago. No one ever sees recessions, depressions, or job loss coming, but most who suffer from them wish they had've done things to keep more doors open, whether they agree with them or not.

Once again, you might be the best candidate for a job, but if someone else comes along with better credentials, they will get the job more often than not, and it's not like the employer will be crying about losing out on a good prospect. Great employees come and great employees go, it is a privilege and not a right to have a good job.

 

If you don't want to pursue your current career path, finish up and get your degree anyway, apply to the police. They're always looking for people with an education and life experience

 

Don't do it, I've been on the same thought as you. I decided to just finish what I started and if I really want to get the license I'll do it after.

Like everyone else says, keep your hobbies separate from your work otherwise what're you gonna do for a hobby/recreation time? lol

 

I truly agree with this! After going through this cycle, in the end just do what you feel is right.

 

Teachers is another one of my rants. There are so few good teachers out there. And then the school system...yuck. If the lessons and exercises were made relevant, school would be far more interesting. Math a the perfect example: teacher demonstrates how to solve problem, now assigns the same thing as homework which the student is supposed to do 50 times. Sigh. It is damn hard to teach critical thinking and common sense, but I don't see the school system even trying. Almost every teacher hated me, and I mean with a hellish fiery passion. Mainly because I'd sit in class with my palmtop (HP 660LX) the whole time answering email or working on my website.

New game, new game!

I have to say this carefully otherwise it sounds like I'm an arrogant douche. If I start into that mode, just consider it my self confidence in my abilities, brought about by 31 years of experience with them.

I'm not worried about being out of a job because of my widely variable skills. There is so much that I could do and at the worst case, would have to attend a college course just to get the paper that says I could do what I already can do but without the paper. That would be annoying, but faced with no job vs. a year to prove I can do, the choice is obvious. Now let's say the company I work for ceases to exist. The first thing I'd do is open my own on-site computer repair and undercut everyone in town by 50% while doing a much better job. Failing that, small engine repair (which is fun and has no overhead). Or "home" level welding/fabricating where people just want a million small jobs done for $20 and don't care if you have a ticket as long as the job is done and done well. Get bored of that? Meh, release a line of RX-7 performance parts (I don't think anyone could make a living at that though). Or I could just sit at home all day, work on my website, and really monetize it...That's off the top of my head. Hell, I'm not above scrubbing hallways and digging ditches either, if it comes down to it. I could write smart phone applications with little effort and zero overhead...huge money in that. Or teach computers at a local community college (though I think they would need some paperwork for that...).

The mention of the auto worker is exactly where I was going to go, and it is a very good point. There are many factory workers who have spent their life on a few lines, which no real skills, that could do a job anyone can be trained to do in under an hour. Yet they enjoy over inflated paycheques and job "security" through their union...And from personal experience knowing some of these people who worked for a recently closed plant, have no other skills and have spent every cent of their money earned over the last 30+ years with no savings...but a new truck every year and a constantly renovated house. And many knew their plant would be closing for at least 10 years, yet did a damn nothing about preparing for the inevitable.

It is an interesting dichotomy.

 

I guess i shouldn't mention that I'm a high school teacher then...

I'd like to think there is a definite difference between the old-school teachers, and many of the younger, better-trained teachers of the current generation. We're getting past the generation of teachers that were able to finish high school, go to Normal School (teachers' college) and get a job teaching. Now you have to have a Bachelors' degree in your subject area, with a specific number of courses in a second teachable subject. Teacher's College does not exist any more. Instead, it is a second Bachelor's degree in education, taken at various universities around the province. That is not to say that my parents' generation of teachers were ineffective or not highly skilled, but I think current teachers are well-versed in a diverse set of educational approaches, and are expected to tailor lessons to students' individual needs. A year just studying how to adapt to various learning styles, needs and strengths is time well spent.

I work with a great staff, and I must say that even though my colleagues may have different techniques and personalities, they genuinely care about each student that walks through their door. Having said that, they are human beings too, and if you came to work every day and had to deal with someone that acted like a ***** towards you, it would be very difficult to deal with that person in a pleasant manner. I've had students treat me worse than the **** stuck to the bottom of their shoe, for no reason that I can come up with, other than that it allowed them to exercise control over some part of their life, when everything else was going to ****.

Now I can't speak for your teachers, but I don't see your situation as being necessarily that you were being an ******* intentionally, but rather that you were bored/not challenged/incorrectly placed as per your course level. Instead of taking offense, I would be looking for a way to turn what you were doing with your palmtop into some sort of teachable moment.

I'm in a special circumstance as well, because I'm the head of the Arts department at my school, and teach music full-time. As a professional musician working with young people, I think it breeds more respect than perhaps your average math teacher, given that my courses are based on practical application of skills, and I am more than competent enough to demonstrate any skill that I am teaching, on any instrument or with voice. We also work to build strong relationships with our music students through competition, travel, and a ridiculous amount of extra-curricular ensembles. Every lesson has relevance to the subject, or the piece we're working on, or to a goal of some sort. That goal could be competition every spring, or mastery of their instrument to set them up for successful entry into post-secondary music training, or the world of the working musician.

I'm currently developing a course that integrates computers, MIDI, recording technology, sampling, and various mastering and mixing techniques together with composition so that we can keep the program relevant and applicable as technology is becoming a greater and greater part of the music industry. Besides, it lets me learn a new instrument... sort of.

I understand the gripe about not teaching critical thinking. It's been a gripe of teachers that the wording of the curriculum was not strong enough in regards to the wording of the documents. If you're interested, check out the new Ontario curriculum documents. They are very heavily directed towards critical thinking; analysis, and synthesis of ideas from different sources.
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curricu.../subjects.html

Anyway, i know we're all affected and shaped by our experiences. Obviously school wasn't a positive experience for you for whatever reason. Ineffective teachers are out there, and i'm sure we've all had encounters with them. There are people in every profession that shouldn't be there. But seeing it from the inside as an educator, I honestly believe that the education system is always evolving, and that good teachers are out there, and are truly working to help young people gain skills and find their place in the world.

Sorry for the long post, and for things getting off-topic.

Regards,
Matt

 

It's awesome that you are teaching music because that was one of my favourite subjects in high school. I always made time to take band and played 1st clarinet. Music didn't have any false sense of importance like many other subjects, it was taught to enjoy and experience the art. There was no assumption that it would be a major career-shaping skill in the student's life. It was a fun class, about expression and learning a skill that enriches the experience of life. Now, compare that to my least favourite subject of match, where everything is the exact opposite. It was harped on throughout my entire highschool career how "critical" math skills were. I feel that I was singled out by several math teachers because I put zero (literally, zero) effort into their classes yet they knew I was interested in computers. So they always pulled the "you'll need math to succeed in computers" angle, which of course by then I had known to be false since sometime midway through elementary school.

It would have been great to learn about MIDI and electronic music in class, but of course many "true musicians" don't consider electronic music to be "real music". In grade 8 I was literally laughed at in the face by my teacher, who was a serious guitar teacher, for trying to strike up a conversation in music about my experiments with electronic music (at the time using an 8 bit sound card, a MIDI sequencer that I wrote, a simple frequency generator, a Theremin and a few other things). He told me that serious musicians don't play that those kind of toys. Huh, guess he's never heard of Kraftwerk which laid the foundation for all modern music and are still being regularly sampled to this day.

I can only recall ever being a ***** to one teacher in my life: my grade 12 math teacher Mr. Alfano. He truly was an asshat, but I understand why he hated me because it was a waste of time for him to have me in his classes. Instead of doing my homework I also tended to write programs on my 660LX in BASIC which did the work for me. Ironically I became fascinated with Fermat's Last Theorem for about a week and spent that week trying to write a program to prove it. When I came to him for serious advice and to show him my project he said "Don't waste my time". Well hell, then I guess you can just read about my work in a journal of mathematics (obviously didn't happen and I lost interest before I could learn how to finish).

Boredom was the key, and it was funny that teachers and guidance counselors would automatically go to "not challenged". No, that was not it. The material was just boring and so irrelevant that it was a waste of my time and I didn't give a great fluffy hell about it. Something I tried to communicate and explain again and again, but it was always mentally translated to "not challenging" by their brains. In the same sense that when I said "computers" to my guidance counsellor it would translate to "computer animation" in his brain. Thus he would constantly call me into his office everytime he heard of a new program at Sheridan involving computer animation.

After a brief look at the curriculum you posted (and it was a very brief look, because that is a lot of documentation) it seems "critical thinking" is mentioned a lot. I will always firmly believe that you cannot teach someone how to think. A person is born with it, or not. One can tell the difference in infancy, while the class of babies tries to pound the round peg into the square hole, and then the one kid in the corner figures out that each shape goes into it's own hole. Sadly there is a great majority of people who go through life trying to force the square peg into the round hole. Lack of technical sophistication in the teachers of my highschool career (and I find it paradoxical that people call it a "career") was a constant battle. I was kicked out of the library so often for "hacking" by the bitter middle-aged mini-Napoleon librarian (who is so relevant that I don't even remember his name...Mr. May?) when all I was doing was working on my programming assignments given to me the period before in the classroom just down the hall!

I went to Catholic school, so your mileage may vary. And the Catholic part of that is a story for another thread. How a Catholic school can claim to teach critical thinking is an irony that should not be lost.

 

getting really off-topic, but here's something for your perusal...
http://creationmuseum.org/

 

So so true. I went to catholic highschool before getting kicked out, and I always found it interesting that students were meant to go from Religion class to Science. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

hmmmm.. wow
good to see how this thread turned out lol

 

Aaron, be careful what you wish for... that's what I learned.

Throughout highschool, All I wanted was a teacher who had industry experience. When I got to college, it was the opposite. Being "taught" by people who knew everything about a field, but had no way to express their knowledge.
Balance is the key.

@OP its been said, work is work, pleasure is pleasure and hobby is hobby (which can also be pleasure ;D).

@2fierce That video was great. Thanks.