The implication about the secondary intake porting only holds water when the failure occurs in very short order of the build. Overporting the secondary (widening the portion of the port towards the square ring land) can expose a good length of the side seal and, with the spring underneath, push it out slightly into the intake port. When the top of the side seal gets to the closing edge of the port, the seal gets chipped at the end or broken off. I've seen it a bunch of times. It's a main reason why I don't make those ports real wide and big.

The bad gas thing, even though it's certainly plausible, is next to impossible to quantify. How are we supposed to know if the gas is bad? My guess is, depending upon how hard the car was being run and how the tune was setup, the fuel was just not up to par.

B

 

^^OK well i guess the best i will be able to do is get some pictures of the secondary ports. will u be able to tell from a picture?

This is the second time i have had a side seal go on me, i found my compression test results from my previous (3mm) motor and it appears that it was a front seal on that motor, so i can draw no relation?. on one face of the front rotor i was pulling 17psi. IIRC the side seal was still inside the groove in the rotor just cracked.

 

Cracked side seal?? And that's it? That's some sort of serious engine knock. Do you by chance have a Datalogit and can download the map off that PowerFC? I'd like to look at it.

B

 

You'll be able to tell from pics, but if it was strictly overporting, the port and iron would liekly have soem damage as well.

Brian, I wasn't too familiar with the details (although we'd talked about that situation before) but was just trying to get across the point of apex seals being the thing to take the main brunt of detonation vs. side seals - upgraded or not.

 

i do have a datalogit so i could definetly post the map that i am currently running on the motor in question. the 3mm motor from last year i have the maps on sheets of paper, so i could post those up for u if i can figure out my scanner.

it'll take me some doing, how bad do u want to see them?

 

If it's inconvenient for you, don't worry about it.

B

 

Yeah, Im done being an a-hole. I just like rattling cages on the internet every once in a while.

Theres no use in playing the who knows what game. We've all learned experiences on our own level and share them In our own way. Some stories are taller than others I guess.

Smitter, if adam is going to tear it down, I can make a point of trying to be there, even though I have quite a wicked shedule lately.

 

I'd be interested in looking at the map as well.

thewird

 

Actually it's not difficult to achieve. If anything the opposite is true - it's dead simple. It's basic physics and chemistry that was taught to us in school. It's like saying that gravity is difficult to achieve. The truth is that if you can make two large objects with mass sit close together and not have gravity you should be hired to work at CERN. Now that would be difficult

As for pressure/density maybe this will help. Take another gas - like Carbon Dioxide ( CO2 ) How do you get more or less oxygen into it? Well, you could add more oxygen but then you would have Carbon Trioxide (C03) and if you took away oxygen you would get Carbon Monoxide ( CO ). However these are entirely different gasses. So what else can you do? Well, you can put it under pressure and get liquid Carbon Dioxide which is more dense (went from gas to liquid). If you put it under even more pressure you would get solid Carbon Dioxide - commonly called dry ice - which is even more dense. So if you had a jar full of dry ice and one full of gaseous Carbon Dioxide which one has more oxygen? Dry ice, right? Now if you had two identical jars of dry ice which has the most oxygen? Trick question - they would both have identical amounts. Think of your intake manifold as the jar if that helps any. The important thing to remember is that relationship between pressure and density. They are joined at the hip so to speak. I'm glad you are now interested in doing some research though. Too often discussions like this would have been left at the "I read it on the internet somewhere so it must be true" stage.

 

Cool thanks for the explanation, i never did do good in chem, haha. Hence why im a Computer Animator, lol.

Just hard thing for me to wrap my head around, is ok here it goes:

IM talking about o2 in the air. So technically same absolute pressure anywhere (elevation) will contain the same amount of o2? so like in Calgary say you need 24PSI of absolute pressure to make 10 PSI of boost, would lets say in Japan 10 PSI of boost (using the absolute pressure) yield the exact same amount of o2 concentration?

The PSI is Air, but it will take more pressure in Calgary to achieve the same 02 concentration then it would in Japan cause of the Sea level vs elevation factor.

Or because of the MAP sensor, it will make calculate the absolute pressure of each elevation, which would create more absolute pressure in Calgary then it would in Japan.

I just typed, and never looked at my post, cause well i dont even know what im saying, haha.

 

This popped into my head randomly but I don't feel like making a long post... If you get a sample of air in a polluted city and a sample of clean air from the wilderness and put them at lets say 14.7 PSi, will they both contain the same amount of o2?

thewird

 

Take the motor apart yourself. Take BDC's advice take photos. Now here is something that NOBODY does. Try to take everything apart intact, and measure the clearances. If you have a toast side seal and the tolerances of every other side seal is way to tight start talking to your builder. Check the tolerances of everything. Listen I'm not saying anything bad about the builder in question we've all been down that road before, I know youve been treated well and you feel they would do nothing negative to you. But please just do yourself the favour of checking EVERYTHING it may save you from having to deal with this issue again. Seriously I'm trying to help.

 

thx for the help TD07,
i have absolutely no idea what to check or how to check clearancing. i suppose the info is there for me if i search for it. Maybe its time to open up and watch the rotary aviation rebuild dvd i have sitting here, that might tell me

 

Depends on if the contaminants contained oxygen. However, any differences would marginal at best. Otherwise you would have much bigger things to worry about - like the location of the nearest Scott Air Pack.

 

See above

 

with all that being over i have decided on letting cam from lightspeed tune my vehicle, do any of you guys have any recommendations and advice in regards to the tune?, what about the timing split?...

thanks....

 

Wouldn't mind seeing the map quite honestly.

B

 

+1

thewird

 

Shouldn't your tuner already know these things?

 

I think tony is asking for his own benefit. Someone can say the sky is purple and I wouldn't know any better if I didn't know any better.

 

yes, but for my own sake i would like to have the knowledge to back up the tune....

i'm not the kinda guy who would throw money and a vehicle at someone and just get them to tune it and call it a day....

you can say i have trust issues with mechanics perhaps, so i will observe during the tune....

 

That's not even an option around here. What we really need is a place that will build a motor, install an ems, and tune it, and have ONE warranty to cover it all. Untill that happens rotary owners are left to play the blame game. Who's fault is it? Builders, installers, tuners, owners? It's retarded. Hard to believe Calgary owners are in stuck in this senario one which lets face it is far from a recent phenomenon, considering we have a shop that calls themselves a "specialist" but that's a topic for another day I suppose.

Maxthe7man is willing to do it, but it costs $$$. No shitty reused parts. Yet everytime he's told people that's how he operates they dissappear in short order. Truth be told most owners who blow through 2-3 motors because of a combination of shitty engine builds and poor tuning would end up ahead of the game had they been willing to pony up from the start. Live and learn I suppose.

 

i considered myself to have "pony'd up" although alot of people will yell at me saying so....

conroy from edmonton built my engine using a large street port, atkins rebuild kit and RA super seals....

he's built numerous engine's, with that being said, i refuse to go to our "specialist" shop, max aswell said he could build the engine but when push came to shove, i couldnt wait months on end for a reply....

 

i had an amazing experience at lightspeed today with cam tuning my car, the guy is very knowledgable and has many toys, i especially liked the knock box he used....

final result was 343whp and 288lbtq @ 12psi on a BNR3 and large street port running a conservative 10.8:1 AFR....

great experience, was reasonably priced and the results left me quite happy....

 

^^good to hear, glad to see someone give the guy some props instead of the typical slander the local rotary builders/tuners seem to get around here. what are the specs on your turbo? this is on an fc right?