Getting a map from a car that runs the same modifications is not considered a safe tune. It might work but no modified car is exactly the same unless its stock. What he was using it what is considered a base/starter map just to get you around, not for WOT runs. It needs to be tuned on the vehicle its going to be used on to be safe.

thewird

 

If theres one thing I've learned about this forum its that everyone is automaitcally wrong. The only way to do it is to do it yourself.

Dont get me wrong, I've gotten alot of good advice (and bad) from hanging around here. Some good times, and bad. But in the end, all the work I ended up doing was by me, with very much help of others.

I would highly recommend you just read up on the PFC, call up some buddies to come help and give it a go. Honestly, I've never touched a PFC before and I wouldn't hesitate to help. The basic idea's of tuning are the same. And like soloracer said, every engine is different and must be tuned accordingly.

 

i completely agree, but the map was added, then he gave it some test runs to see if it was good, and he never had a problem doing WOT runs for i believe what 8 months... Then went to Mb then all of a sudden blows a side seal. im just gathering the info and making educated assumptions here. But i do agree, usually you will always need some tuning after the initial Map, even if it was with the same mods, but the map looked to be 100%. you would have to ask Smitter for more info on that though.

( and soloracer study "The Wirds" post, thats how you are supposed to state your opinions, not saying were all idiots and then say listen to the all mighty me! im always 100% right byyyaahh!"

just sayin'

-Mark

 

Just out of curiosity, did he put a wideband and hook it up to a datalogit so he can look at the logs? Cause thats the only way you would know if its good, you can't just "feel" it. And you usually don't blow an apex seal the first time, it takes a bit of punishment before going. Most people only do WOT runs a few times a week (in higher gears, because lower gears go by too quick for anything to happen unless the tune is really bad).

I was running what was considered extremely red zone unsafe tuning (but I wanted to find the limit of the car) and it lasted 4 laps at Mosport which is a 4km high speed (240 km/h) road coarse before detonating and blowing the engine. So even if the tune wasn't perfect, it wouldn't blow right away unless it was really bad which doesn't seem to be the case since it was taken from a car with similiar mods.

A picture of my rotor, it was really bad detonation lol...


thewird

 

Hey Wird, thx for your advice. the higher gears is were the detonation would have occured, i woulda been in 4th gear @ 200km/hr. my datalogit is not hooked up to my wideband, its on my to do list.

Soloracer, thx for your lack of imput once again, your derrogatory comments and ability to hold on to a grudge from a few years back are just what this forum needs, good work!

 

So you have a wideband? What was it reading under WOT and was it stable? What PSi also?

thewird

 

My posts were helpful - much more so than yours in fact. You and Smitter posted uneducated assumptions that were incorrect and exactly the wrong way to go about keeping an RX7 in good running condition. He didn't post the reasons his engine blew as "theory" either by the way - he stated it as a fact. If I hadn't posted you guys would still be thinking altitude caused the problem and that it's OK to run a map from a different car and then push your car to the limits. How many blown engines has this kind of thinking caused? Who knows, maybe if I hadn't posted Archangel would have thought it was OK to borrow a map from a friend and skip the costly tuning. After all, it was altitude that caused Smitters engine to go right? Not the fact Smitter used a map that wasn't tuned for his car. If I hadn't spoke up some might have said "Gee, I never plan to leave Alberta so all should be good with this map".

Do you know what the worst thing about all this is? You guys are taking mine and thewird's info as gospel when you should at least educate yourselves on how EFI works and then maybe you could understand what is happening with the car. You will still find that we are correct but then you will also have an understanding as to why so that if someone tries to snow you with the "the reason your engine blew it's because the stars weren't aligned correctly" you will know differently. You're taking the lazy way out.

thewird: I've always wanted to go to Mosport - I might have a chance as a friend is probably going to be racing a 996 Cup Car there next year. I'm looking forward to it. He raced at the Rolex 24 last year and that was a blast. I'm thinking Mosport would be the same.

Smitter: My lack of input? I thought I made it clear that your engine didn't blow because of altitude. How much do you want to bet that if "thewird" didn't post to back up my response you would be arguing and fighting everything I said without giving any thought to possibility that I was right? Now who is holding a grudge? You've had a beef with me and some other guys right from day one because we don't agree with your vendor.

 

I agree that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet. It's always good to learn about how your car works. Makes you feel better too and sometimes saves you some repair bills ^_^

Mosport is definitely a track I want to drive more this year before winter comes. Something always seems to happen when I want to go and the day that I ended up going, I blew the motor testing the limits of the engine lol

No comment on the other stuff, lets just be nice :P

thewird

 

yeah i have a wideband, it reads about 10.8 under load and it stay pretty stable. usually i run 15lbs. but i was runninng 12lbs when she blew.

i had some excessively high oil temps @ the time and was running a 20w50 motor oil so my oil pressure was really high. initially I thought that might have been the cause of the smoke. maybe taking out the oil control rings???

 

If shes reading 10.8 and those readings are accurate at that pressure level it is more then safe from a fuel perspective (thats actually too rich in my eyes and can cause carbon buildup from running that rich in my opinion). There are many other settings in the powerFC that would affect timing correction maps and such for safety so I can't comment any further without looking at it.

20w50 is thick but some like it so who knows... When you break a seal and dont have compression on a rotor it smokes due to the fuel/air not being compressed and burned, your just dumping fuel out the pipe.

If you were closer I could help you out. Hopefully you can get enough people for that Kan tune so you can have peace of mind on your new motor.

thewird

 

If you don't datalog your wideband it's pretty easy to miss a point where you could have went lean. Also, your boost gauge will not read correctly at elevation as it's not referenced the same way as a MAP sensor. They are calibrated to have 0 psi at a reference number (14.7). That is why you thought you were making more boost in MB but in actuality you weren't. You manifold would have the same pressure regardless of altitude but your boost gauge would read incorrectly. However, I can't see where turning the boost down would hurt things. All it means is that you weren't exceeding your boost limits - assuming that your MAP sensor was functioning correctly. My opinion is your motor was on it's way out regardless of where you happened to be.

 

I never said that i was making more boost, i was hitting fuel cut im mb at the same boost levels (15lbs). which i would attribute to the more dense air????

thx for the replies

 

Yeah i believe the 20w50 is too thick aswell. my buddy in winnipeg runs it in his 20b and he recomended i use it in an attempt to keep oil temps down. in the end it didnt work. it just made it harder to get the temps down and increased my oil pressure dramatically. 25 psi higher then i was previously seing with 10w30 @ 120km/hr (3100rpm). oil temps were in the 235f range which i though was way to high. I definetly have to upgrade my oil cooler.

make no mistake about it though wird, it is burning oil. my low oil sensor would let me know that every 60kms. i used 9 litres of oil to limp the car home from medicine hat to calgary. which is about 270kms.

 

Provided that everything is working as it's supposed to a change in air density won't be the cause of fuel cut - because of your MAP sensor. How do you know you were hitting fuel cut?

 

the car would violently cut out in 3rd or 4th gear at 6000+ rpm. I turned the boost down a couple psi on my profec and it cleared right up and never reocured.

 

correct me if i am wrong here, cause it is mere speculation
colder air makes more power, that seems to be obvious whenever monitoring intake temps.
why does colder air make more power? cause it is more dense? if thats the case denser air also makes more power. the air is more dense in manitoba do to its altitude. manitoba is approximately 400m above sea level, Calgary is approximately 1.4 kms ( a difference of 1000m).

in turn Denser air, requires more fuel to prevent an engine running lean, that is why i was hitting fuel cut, (denser air not enough fuel). that is why i was seeing higher knock values and that is why i was running leaner @ approx 11.4 afs opposed to my regular 10.8 afrs. seems like simple logic to me?

 

I think a MAP sensor takes that into account, you'd just pull different intake vacuum at different elevations?

 

You also have a temp sensor which reads the temperature and corrects the fuel to whatever the air temp correction map was configured to do.

thewird

 

So corrections can be made by the ecu for different intake temps, but u can have the same intake temps at different elevations, 40 degree intake temps in manitoba is more dense then 40 degree AITs in Calgary????

 

In a turbo car, the outside pressure does not matter (much). The whole system is pressurized to x PSi. Do some research on how a turbo works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp-EV...eature=related

thewird

 

That makes sense to me Smitter. Still Wird, cant the pressure be the same, but just have denser air. Just like a Turbo can push out 15psi, but CFM comes into account with bigger turbos at the same PSi level.

Same PSI level, with denser air, means more compact, and technically More air in at once.

 

Denser air is more pressurized air by definition but 17 psi at sea level is the same as 17 psi at 10,000 feet in a pressurized environment (read off the map sensor, not your boost gauge). CFM between turbo's is different.

Something to note, your turbo needs to work more at high elevation to reach the same pressure.

thewird

 

Confirmed: Denser air makes more power.

so if a turbo is designed to make the air more dense, it would have a better base to start with at a lower altitude, making it even more efficient. ???.


FWIW, my car had a harder time keeping traction in mb, even with mid 40 aits and 30 degree ambient temperature. it was a squirrel.


How about taking a look at gettin a bad tank of fuel, that can definetly lead to knock? am i right? there is no way an ecu can correct for bad gas, is there?

Disclaimer: speculating once again

 

Ye ai understand that, but 15psi in Calgary is still 15 psi in lets say MB. But there are more 02 particles in the air that is pressurized in MB because of the nature of the air at that elevation. Which would make for better combustion/More fuel for the more air.

I used the turbo CFM analogy, to put forth the whole same pressure more air idea. technically (to me) it would seem at 15psi, if you have more compact air, 15psi would hold more compact air in the same pressurized environment, then a place with less dense air.

or is 15psi at what ever elevation the same amount of air(o2). Also we are talking about more 02 not just air in general. You would get the same amount of pressurized AIR, but in that air, there would be more o2 in MB then in Calgary, which is what matters to combustion principals. Which would make sense why he is Making more power/making fuel cut in MB with more o2 in the air at the same or lower PSI.

Correct me if im wrong.

-Mark

 

FWIW, I've blown a *pile* of engines and never, ever, broke a side seal due to detonation of any sort.

Apex seals on the other hand............