TalkSick

any calgary gurus able to spare an hour to educate me as to the finer points of timing, im doing as much research as i can but all the info i pick up is useless when i still havent quite made proper heads or tails of what exactly advance means (is -5 to -10 advanced 5 degrees or retarded?) type of stuff. ive got my fuel maps worked out nicely and most everything else figured out to my satisfaction but timing still mystifies me a bit. lemme know if u got the patience an savvy

Syritis

iTrader: (2)

10*BTDC ... 5*BTDC ... Top Dead Center ... 5*ATDC ... 10*ATDC
-10* .............. -5* ................. 0* ..................... 5* .............. 10*
Advanced .................................................. ................. Retarded

timing split between leading and trailing is generally accepted as 15degree although it will change with rpm and load.
i've never been able to remember but i believe the leading mark (the one to the right) on the pulley is 5 degrees before top dead center. the second mark (on the left) is the trailing and is at 10degrees after top dead center

it's believe it's easier to blow a motor due to timing then playing with AFRs, thus i'd suggest that unless you have a complete understanding you shouldn't play with it.

if you wanna talk more specific numbers i can pull out the timing maps on my haltech. I still couldn't tell you the perfect number you should run because i don't have the experience but i've got a good understanding.

TalkSick

that is absolutely perfect, illustrates the point nicely, and confirms why i was messed about it, advance seems like a term for larger numbers :P im a lil 10*atdc myself

i agree timing is much more like jugglin hand grenades if u dont know what ur doing which is why i been doin all the reading i have. as i said tho none of it is applicable if u cant get ur head around which way advance is. my interpretation of what i read was as u describe above, but since it was counter intuitive i wanted to ask before i went further

i would be quite happy to have a chance to have a peek at your map for comparison purposes. i havent had the ***** to change mine at anything but idle and even then i change it back before driving or anything, i be scairt. at the moment i have simply been running claudios basemap timing for a close set up to my own, and tho i know he recommends not boostin on it i have had no issues up to 10psi and the car pulls hard. at the same time id like to get a proper understanding of just where the limits are, what the dos and donts are, basically get comfortable enough to start tweakin it for better performance and engine safety ( i know the two oppose each other )

an example would be that i hear popcorn after boosting when i hit a red light and idle i can hear it plinking. as far as i can tell at idle im at about -3 so it seems unlikely im detonating, that said i dont know for sure that timing too retarded wont cause the same.

im not looking for definitive settings, i dont expect there to be a magic number, nor do i want anyone else tuning my car, i just want to gain the understanding necessary to do so myself intelligently. so ill post my lil half retarded and not so advanced questions here so that all the advanced stuff i learned so far doesnt seem so retarded.

question 2 in the series i suppose is "can having the timing too far retarded at idle cause detonation with high intake temps, 91 octane, after boosting?" i know factory timing is -5, and my map runs at-3, but i have read people going as high as -15 to -20 and i can unerstand the concept behind it but figure if im aready pinging at -3 -5 ish then im gonna be playin with matches if i bump it to -12 to -15 ish. or am i? sucks to be new i shoulda took this **** in school.

84stock

iTrader: (5)

take it to lightspeed in red deer and buck up for a good and proper tune.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Show us your maps.

thewird

Syritis

iTrader: (2)

15degrees advanced i believe is a safe number for 10lbs of boost but i'd have to check my maps for sure.
if your timing is retarded then you missing out on some power due to your combustion having less time to expand before getting let out the exhaust ports, thus the fuel is still burning into your exhaust manifold and you'll see higher exhaust gas temps (EGTs) and in the worst case cook the oil ring on your turbo.
if your timing is too advanced you'll hear a knock. this is when your fuel mixture ignites while still in the compression cycle and before the e-shaft in in the correct location to transfer the power through the drive train. simply put too much advance and you start trying to push the e-shaft in the opposite direction.

my map is also from claudios base maps. it had less advance then the map with my previous motor. so i went half way between the maps, which seemed to pick up some power just going into boost. i'm also told by a few guys that i might be able to advance my whole map a couple of degrees.

Syritis

iTrader: (2)

I should also mention that our maps should look backwards to an N/A ignition map. while N/A ignition advances with RPM. turbo'd maps retard with boost.

TalkSick

yeah i was cross referencing info i found with my map an it looks like it may be able to advance a couple degrees in comparison with what others are running, but ill keep it that way for now till i have a fmic, ill take a small loss in power over potential loss of engine. my biggest issue was makin sure i knew which way was advanced rather then feelin like i was guessing.

still curious if having the timing too far retarded, say between 0 an -5 can cause detonation at idle with hot intake temps. id considered that i could be hearing fuel poppin off in the exhaust but it really seems to be comin from under the hood an not under the car. have to get in there for a good listen tomorrow.

as to the map, http://www.tuningtechnology.com/Down..._int2.5bar.zip
is what i started with, ive changed the fuel map to suit my injectors an made peace with my wideband, but the timing maps are all unchanged. ill grab the map off my car tomorrow an post it up, but if u just wanna look at timing there it is, hell ill see if i cant throw up a logged pull or two as well if thats gonna make a difference.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Is this for an N/A rotary?
Does the e6k not have a trailing split map?

Your timing for idle seems sort of fine. I find 4 to 12 leading works best at idle. Basically you try to make it pull the most vacuum.

Your timing approaching no vacuum is too retarded below 5250 RPM.

Map needs work but I don't see it as unsafe, however I don't know what the effects of 0 leading timing at 0 psi would be as thats way retarded.

10 leading is overly safe for 10 PSi, especially on a 2nd gen rotor. I use more timing then that at 16-17 PSi on pump gas (94) lol.

thewird

Syritis

iTrader: (2)

I'm aware that the E6's dont' have a split map but they still control the timing split. locked timing it's 15degree's split but i noticed that it does change. like when my motor comes close to stalling the trailing plugs will advance.

where did 10 come from. so if's i'm running 15degrees of advance and your running 16-17* then this is probably why everyone says i can advance my map a couple of degrees.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Sorry, I ment 15. I run 13 leading from when my turbo comes up to 16 leading past 7000 with a 10 split @ 16.5 PSi.

thewird

TalkSick

doh i forgot to put the specs

FB TII with fairly stock motor, open cone intake, 3" exhaust, S4 manifolds and turbo, tmic (no hood scoop), 550 primaries and the pretty blue 800 (880?) that came on 12a turbos for secondaries, ported exhaust, ecu is an E6X

excellent, this is exactly the sort of info im looking for, the number others run, and a lil breakdown of how to find my cars happy spot.

regarding the 0* timing at 0psi, im not sure what u mean (i not seeing tht on the map) unless its regarding my idle timing, thats at vac say -60 kpa and usually at 3* i said 0 to -5 to allow for temperature compensation variation. not sure ive actually seen 0 but i know 3* is what its mapped for an where it usually sits.

also exactly the sort of info im lookin for

not sure about the e6k but the e6x has maps for leading and trailing

thanks again for the info, an keep it coming. it ****** guts me to have to ask at all im a pretty solo type and prefer doing an learnin things my own way. at the same time u gotta know when ur hung an bite it. i understand none of this is info i couldnt (and havent) found by searching. ive spent cuntless hours reading threads an learnin bout these cars over the last 5 years, built a few, pulled off my TII FB swap, all sorts of stuff. ive read all the info above in other posts, but always in realtion to someone elses car/issue specifically that left me a lil dubious as to how to proceed with my own. timing an engine building are the only two grey areas left for me at this point and i intend to color em in.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I was opening the map with Halwin 1.89 and importing it as an e6k. Possibly that scewed the map if its for an e6x? What software do you need to open your map?

thewird

TalkSick

i have been using halwin 1.26 can u run an e6x with 1.89? and yes its an e6x

Syritis

iTrader: (2)

wow, low quality photo's from facebook. shitty. Ctrl + + will make teh screen bigger, but it won't make it much clearer. 100kpa = 1 bar = 14.5psi

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

Mazda has stock engined cars idling at 5 ATDC L and 20 ATDC T. In other words retarded timing in relation to TDC. Like thewird already stated, most ported engines like more advanced timing to run smooth and make good vaccuum.

It is highly unlikely an engine will ever detonate at idle. There is no load on it. Detonation usually occurs around peak torque, or during high load, low rpm stuff (like chugging up a huge hill in 5th gear at 1500 rpm on a hot day.)

Most people seem to map ignition in a linear fashion only. But, really, it is a true 3-dimensional map, as it will change with rpm and boost. For example, your timing at 15psi will not be the same at 4000rpm as at 7000 rpm. You are always trying to optimize when the spark gets fired in relation to the speed of the flame front.

Some general numbers we have been using with our turbo cars, including a CCTCC/CASC FD race car, over the years:

Leading:

Idle: 5-15 BTDC.
Cruising vaccuum: 32-45 BTDC.
0 psi transition: 20 - 32 BTDC.
Boost: 12-15 BTDC at 15psi.

Trailing Split:

Idle: 10-15 deg.
Cruising vacuum: 0-5 deg.
Boost: 1 deg of split per psi. Generally, 10 deg split is more than adequate.

Again, as we all know, these numbers vary from engine to engine and with the type of fuel used. Without optimization on a dyno, it is really just a guessing game.

TalkSick

Syritis, u recall what u did on this engine as far as porting goes?

with regards to the split timing i havent quite wrapped my head around the whole flame front thing, as with most things i just keep fillin the melon with info that means nothing an eventually itll all fall together. that hasnt come together yet

i still hear mad cracklin when i stop at lights. would a fairly rich afr of say 11.5-12 at -2* to -7* leave enough fuel that im just hearin it cookin off in the exhaust? my timing looks steady, afr fairly steady, map pressure fairly steady, i cant figure out what exactly im hearing.
does detonation leave any telltale signs i might pick up on my haltech if i datalog it? i know it wont do squat with a knock sensor and i dont have one anyhow, havent an EGT sensor, and havent any funds to achieve any of the above. there any other tricks

thanks again for the responses its been quite helpful.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Are you running negative timing at idle? Try 6 leading with a split of 0 and 12.5 afr

thewird

Syritis

iTrader: (2)

intake ports are stock. exhaust ports could be bigger but they're fairly good size.
what down pipe do you have? i know thin wall exhaust tend to make tapping sounds when they cool off.

TalkSick

racing beat 3" dp with kinda a custom 3" magnaflow presilencer and can, same as was o it when i got it. i can certainly hear it ticking itself cool, but it contniues doin that after engine stops. at idle i can hear that tickin plus what sounds like cats clawin at the inside

Syritis

iTrader: (2)

i noticed my engine bay was ticking last night too i ruled out the engine so i thought nothing of it. you really gotta get your head in there to find roughly where it's coming from. mind the fan belts though.

TalkSick

oh man ive had my head in every crevice i can find, not excluding my own *** im afraid. ive been over that car so many times lookin an listenin, even got the stethoscope out more then once but its a lot like looking for something u havent actually seen before. im guessing most of its paranoia that im gonna wreck my engine, the rest is inexperience. in the 4 rx-7s ive drivin the **** out of i havent actually encountered something i could properly identify as a knock, and tryin to find a clip of it on you tube has been impossible :P if we still gonna have a lil mini meet ill let ya listen then see what u can make of it

84stock

iTrader: (5)

If you're unsure, just slap a locked first gen dizzy in there at 10 degrees until you can get it set up right.

TalkSick

well i have decided the cracklin escapin kitty noise is comin from the exhaust so im guessin its unburned fuel cookin off as i have my fuel map fairly rich. mostly paranoia actin up as i read so many threads about how easy people pop thier TIIs an how unreliable they are an it just seems unlkely that i managed to dodge whatever bullets the others caught. noticed i get off the line a lil nicer now that i advanced the idle ignition a bit. how much flexibility is there timing wise when under vaccuum as i know there are power gains to be found there and thats where this car is at its slowest? i know, i do search, an im gonna search some more in a second, still isnt gonna hurt to ask.