Keeping his head down in the bordello.
11-03-05, 09:36 PM
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Keeping his head down in the bordello.
This aired last night on The National...
http://www.cbc.ca/national/rex/rex_051102.html
Holy scathing!
And my fav part:
Sarcasm at its finest. 
Do I want the Liberals out after this? No, but that's only after considering about the alternatives.
I tend to think of Chretien as being a part of the 'old school' of politics, sharing Trudeau's **** You approach to doing whatever he wants to do. He's gone, and Martin seems to be inclined to conduct himself with far more modesty. I won't change my vote just yet...
:cueWesternAlienationRants:
http://www.cbc.ca/national/rex/rex_051102.html
Sell the Peace Tower to Wal-Mart?
Nov. 2 2005
I don't know what else the federal Liberals could do to sully their party's reputation.
Sell the Peace Tower to Wal-Mart?
Turn the House of Commons into a time-share Club Med, with the proceeds going to a pool for David Dingwall's severance package?
But outside of those extremes, they've hit the bottom of the barrel, dug underneath the barrel, and found an even lower place where there are no self-respecting barrels at all.
Once an independent commission has fired almost a full thousand pages talking about kickbacks, false receipts, fraud, rogue bureaucrats, and utter unaccountability, there's really not much left... unless there are plans to turn the Mint in to a private casino, to unshackle the Liberal Party from those paltry and antique notions of honour, integrity, and the public good.
Paul Martin is still standing, but only by virtue of Judge Gomery's assessment that during the period Messrs. Guité, Corriveau, and Brault and all the other worthies were shovelling the public money from one pocket to another and creating more instant millionaires than Lotto 6/49, Mr. Martin was merely the country's Finance Minister, the second most powerful man in the party and in the government, on his way to becoming the first.
On Judge Gomery's understanding, Paul Martin was the lone saint in the brothel, the unoccupied first mate on an otherwise very busy pirate ship. It is a distinction of sorts but a distinction that doesn't really, when you think about it, have a lot to offer. His innocence, and I'm not questioning it in the slightest, about the goings-on in the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party during the years he was conducting an internal coup to take over the entire party has about it an almost miraculous obtuseness. For close to a decade, a stealth department operating out of the PMO was hurling millions upon millions of dollars to the partisan machinery in Quebec, his home province; and the Finance Minister, Head of the Treasury Board, was a lone Mother Theresa keeping her head down in the bordello.
By far the best dramatics yesterday were Jean Chrétien's. He's going to ask the courts to investigate Judge Gomery. Considering all the people Mr. Chrétien hasn't asked the courts to investigate, this is at least novel. If Mr. Chrétien is angry at this point, maybe he should be angry at how his great plan to advertise Quebec back in to the confederation turned in to a slush fund for indolent advertising agencies, how the plundering of the unity fund has so ticked off Quebecers, both for its corruption and its stupidity, that they are now more ready for separation than at any other time since the referendum of 1995.
If Mr. Chrétien, who started the unity fund, wants to disown both its execution and its effects, then I guess it really wasn't very much to brag about in the first place. Actually, an apology from Mr. Chrétien for the mischiefs this harebrained and reckless scheme has caused, both to his party and to the country, would do a lot more for his reputation and legacy than all of his self-regarding histrionics with Judge Gomery. I don't know what will bring down the Liberal Party. If two years of ad scam, plundering the public purse, re-igniting separatism, confusing their party with our government, and wounding the very system of politics itself doesn't argue it's time for a change, it's time to question why we bother have elections in the first place. Ad scam was institutionalized theft via the party in power. That's some platform for a fifth term. For "The National," I'm Rex Murphy.
Nov. 2 2005
I don't know what else the federal Liberals could do to sully their party's reputation.
Sell the Peace Tower to Wal-Mart?
Turn the House of Commons into a time-share Club Med, with the proceeds going to a pool for David Dingwall's severance package?
But outside of those extremes, they've hit the bottom of the barrel, dug underneath the barrel, and found an even lower place where there are no self-respecting barrels at all.
Once an independent commission has fired almost a full thousand pages talking about kickbacks, false receipts, fraud, rogue bureaucrats, and utter unaccountability, there's really not much left... unless there are plans to turn the Mint in to a private casino, to unshackle the Liberal Party from those paltry and antique notions of honour, integrity, and the public good.
Paul Martin is still standing, but only by virtue of Judge Gomery's assessment that during the period Messrs. Guité, Corriveau, and Brault and all the other worthies were shovelling the public money from one pocket to another and creating more instant millionaires than Lotto 6/49, Mr. Martin was merely the country's Finance Minister, the second most powerful man in the party and in the government, on his way to becoming the first.
On Judge Gomery's understanding, Paul Martin was the lone saint in the brothel, the unoccupied first mate on an otherwise very busy pirate ship. It is a distinction of sorts but a distinction that doesn't really, when you think about it, have a lot to offer. His innocence, and I'm not questioning it in the slightest, about the goings-on in the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party during the years he was conducting an internal coup to take over the entire party has about it an almost miraculous obtuseness. For close to a decade, a stealth department operating out of the PMO was hurling millions upon millions of dollars to the partisan machinery in Quebec, his home province; and the Finance Minister, Head of the Treasury Board, was a lone Mother Theresa keeping her head down in the bordello.
By far the best dramatics yesterday were Jean Chrétien's. He's going to ask the courts to investigate Judge Gomery. Considering all the people Mr. Chrétien hasn't asked the courts to investigate, this is at least novel. If Mr. Chrétien is angry at this point, maybe he should be angry at how his great plan to advertise Quebec back in to the confederation turned in to a slush fund for indolent advertising agencies, how the plundering of the unity fund has so ticked off Quebecers, both for its corruption and its stupidity, that they are now more ready for separation than at any other time since the referendum of 1995.
If Mr. Chrétien, who started the unity fund, wants to disown both its execution and its effects, then I guess it really wasn't very much to brag about in the first place. Actually, an apology from Mr. Chrétien for the mischiefs this harebrained and reckless scheme has caused, both to his party and to the country, would do a lot more for his reputation and legacy than all of his self-regarding histrionics with Judge Gomery. I don't know what will bring down the Liberal Party. If two years of ad scam, plundering the public purse, re-igniting separatism, confusing their party with our government, and wounding the very system of politics itself doesn't argue it's time for a change, it's time to question why we bother have elections in the first place. Ad scam was institutionalized theft via the party in power. That's some platform for a fifth term. For "The National," I'm Rex Murphy.
Holy scathing!
And my fav part:
By far the best dramatics yesterday were Jean Chrétien's. He's going to ask the courts to investigate Judge Gomery. Considering all the people Mr. Chrétien hasn't asked the courts to investigate, this is at least novel. If Mr. Chrétien is angry at this point, maybe he should be angry at how his great plan to advertise Quebec back in to the confederation turned in to a slush fund for indolent advertising agencies, how the plundering of the unity fund has so ticked off Quebecers, both for its corruption and its stupidity, that they are now more ready for separation than at any other time since the referendum of 1995.
Do I want the Liberals out after this? No, but that's only after considering about the alternatives.
I tend to think of Chretien as being a part of the 'old school' of politics, sharing Trudeau's **** You approach to doing whatever he wants to do. He's gone, and Martin seems to be inclined to conduct himself with far more modesty. I won't change my vote just yet...
:cueWesternAlienationRants:
11-03-05, 10:58 PM
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Too bad Canada isn't the free and democratic country so many Canadians think it is. By the time most Canadians wake up and realize this Canada may well have made the jumps (actually relatively short hops) from socialist entity to banana republic to all-out communist dictatorship. By then it will be too late to vote out the governing party.
This is not to say that a conservative government would amend the constitution to prevent this from happening. After all, Mulroney had a two-term opportunity to do just that and did nothing. But by kicking out a party after only one term of corruption each and every time we could keep the bastards on their toes. The Conservatives already know that they can only overstep so far before being unceremoniously cattle-prodded and shepherds'-caned out of 24 Sussex Drive. Too bad the Liberals know they can get away with murder and still hold office.
This is not to say that a conservative government would amend the constitution to prevent this from happening. After all, Mulroney had a two-term opportunity to do just that and did nothing. But by kicking out a party after only one term of corruption each and every time we could keep the bastards on their toes. The Conservatives already know that they can only overstep so far before being unceremoniously cattle-prodded and shepherds'-caned out of 24 Sussex Drive. Too bad the Liberals know they can get away with murder and still hold office.
11-03-05, 11:24 PM
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mulrooney started this whole full scale land slide.. and th Canadian justice system not only ONLY gave him a slap on the wrist .. and his pension.. but in turn mulroney turns around sues, and walks away with MORE cash.. Pretty much telling just about every politician that it's OK to **** your own country .. becuse we'll TELL you, you were bad.. but then we'll give you lots of money when you sick your lawyer on us.. Guarenteed That cracker *** and his frog fraternity of bum holes will sue the goverment and win.. giving them millions more.. gotta love how it was a 100% quebec graft.. and english Canada is taking the heat over it becuse it was 'liberals'.. like the PQ are angels.. ROTF..
( tangent ON) next time que. wants to seperate let them, and let them have the land that is thiers by 'heritage' .. which does not include 90% of quebec owned by the cree or the st. lawerence waterway and the land rights around it.. bwahaha .. ( tangent completed)
( tangent ON) next time que. wants to seperate let them, and let them have the land that is thiers by 'heritage' .. which does not include 90% of quebec owned by the cree or the st. lawerence waterway and the land rights around it.. bwahaha .. ( tangent completed)
11-04-05, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Aviator 902S
Canada may well have made the jumps (actually relatively short hops) from socialist entity to banana republic
That's CARIBOU Republic, thank you very much.
11-04-05, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by doridori-rx7
mulrooney started this whole full scale land slide.. and th Canadian justice system not only ONLY gave him a slap on the wrist .. and his pension.. but in turn mulroney turns around sues, and walks away with MORE cash.. Pretty much telling just about every politician that it's OK to **** your own country .. becuse we'll TELL you, you were bad.. but then we'll give you lots of money when you sick your lawyer on us.. Guarenteed That cracker *** and his frog fraternity of bum holes will sue the goverment and win.. giving them millions more.. gotta love how it was a 100% quebec graft.. and english Canada is taking the heat over it becuse it was 'liberals'.. like the PQ are angels.. ROTF..
( tangent ON) next time que. wants to seperate let them, and let them have the land that is thiers by 'heritage' .. which does not include 90% of quebec owned by the cree or the st. lawerence waterway and the land rights around it.. bwahaha .. ( tangent completed)
( tangent ON) next time que. wants to seperate let them, and let them have the land that is thiers by 'heritage' .. which does not include 90% of quebec owned by the cree or the st. lawerence waterway and the land rights around it.. bwahaha .. ( tangent completed)
Mulroney certainly wasn't pure as the driven snow, but if you think corruption in Canadian federal politics started with him in 1984 you're missing out on a shitload of Canadian history. Go back a little farther say, to Pearson and Trudeau if you want to see where the real corruption and worse, the socialist element really began to take root.
Mulroney pissed everyone off with the GST and tax reform, but at least he didn't exacerbate the democracy deficit in this country even though he did nothing to improve the situation, repealing the NEP notwithstanding. It's even possible that he was guilty of a conflict of interest in the Airbus scandal (the one he sued the Liberals over after their failed attempt to smear him over that deal), but even if he was that situation pales in scale to the adscam, gun registry and Jane Stewart boondoggles.
Like I said before, many Canadians can overlook all manner of corruption as long as it's committed by a Liberal government, but just let a conservative say one phrase that can somehow be taken out of context and misconstrued...
11-04-05, 08:57 PM
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There is one rule in politics, and only one rule. It has been the same rule since people lived in caves.
"Power is everything. Do whatever it takes to stay in power".
Machiavelli wrote a book about 500 YEARS AGO. So, once you understand this, it all makes sense. Thinking anything else is painfully naive and self delusional.
"Power is everything. Do whatever it takes to stay in power".
Machiavelli wrote a book about 500 YEARS AGO. So, once you understand this, it all makes sense. Thinking anything else is painfully naive and self delusional.
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11-05-05, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by salamander
There is one rule in politics, and only one rule. It has been the same rule since people lived in caves.
"Power is everything. Do whatever it takes to stay in power".
Machiavelli wrote a book about 500 YEARS AGO. So, once you understand this, it all makes sense. Thinking anything else is painfully naive and self delusional.
"Power is everything. Do whatever it takes to stay in power".
Machiavelli wrote a book about 500 YEARS AGO. So, once you understand this, it all makes sense. Thinking anything else is painfully naive and self delusional.
11-05-05, 11:51 AM
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Mulrooney was the First one to be stupid enough to have it out in public.. there's a whole book on just what he took as graft/kickbacks and other assoterd egocentric spenditures.. it opened the way for everyone after that, including governor generals to spend tax money like wild fire on themselves and friends and know they could get away with it..
It's too bad that the conservitives are so stuck in thier 1950's way of thinking were same sex marriage a crime and they weren't so tied to ' christian' ideology about what is or is not social acceptable maybe they'd have a chance.. to me, I'd be voting in the NDP or Green party before I'd let that troop of redneck, bigoted, psuedo brownshirts into power..
It's too bad that the conservitives are so stuck in thier 1950's way of thinking were same sex marriage a crime and they weren't so tied to ' christian' ideology about what is or is not social acceptable maybe they'd have a chance.. to me, I'd be voting in the NDP or Green party before I'd let that troop of redneck, bigoted, psuedo brownshirts into power..
11-05-05, 03:39 PM
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[QUOTE=doridori-rx7]
Mulrooney was the First one to be stupid enough to have it out in public.. there's a whole book on just what he took as graft/kickbacks and other assoterd egocentric spenditures.. it opened the way for everyone after that, including governor generals to spend tax money like wild fire on themselves and friends and know they could get away with it..
Nice try, but Mulroney's massive ego is right on par with that of the likes of Trudeau, Diefenbaker (another Conservative), Pearson and Turner--- all predescessors to Mulroney. As for Mulroney's alleged shady dealings and egotistical self-serving observations, the book on these wasn't published until after Cretien's Shawinigate, adscam and Jane Steward's scandals, Turner's patriotism scandal and Trudeau's dabblings into communism (the Soviet spies exposed in 1982 were actually here with Trudeau's blessing. But when reporter Paul Jackson blew their cover Trudeau had to act surprised and expel them. He then clandestinely had the RCMP investigate itself to find the leak within the RCMP that Paul Jackson had confided in--- to no avail).
It's too bad that the conservitives are so stuck in thier 1950's way of thinking were same sex marriage a crime and they weren't so tied to ' christian' ideology about what is or is not social acceptable maybe they'd have a chance.. to me, I'd be voting in the NDP or Green party before I'd let that troop of redneck, bigoted, psuedo brownshirts into power
The Liberal's strategy of presenting the Conservative party as "one that would force Christianity, anti-gay sentiments and 'a-woman's-place-is-in-the-home' bullshit rhetoric on all Canadians if they were ever again in power" has certainly worked on you, hasn't it?
In spite of the fact that there are a few loud voices on the right-leaning lunatic fringe who want the Conservatives to enact such draconian policies (just as there are loud ultra-left flakes who want a communist state and the "equal sharing of misery"), the Conservatives aren't stupid enough to do this or even want this--- they have bigger fish to fry and a federal government system and economy to clean up.
These Liberal smear tactics are simply diversions to keep the ill-informed masses from dwelling on what a ****-poor and corrupt job their own party has been doing, and to keep our focus away from the fact that they are slowly and methodically turning this country into a socialist welfare state. The NDP would do no better and in some ways worse.
Strangely enough, the Green Party (in spite of their name and appeal to enviro-*****) actually seem to have a viable plan--- to promote free enterprise, lean away from socialist ideals and stay out of our bedrooms while at the same time developing environmentally-friendly alternative power sources and holding large polluters accountable without blackmailing them into submission and bankruptcy as Kyoto threatens to do. While it remains to be seen if they'd ever deliver on this promise, I'd vote for them long before I'd ever vote NDP or Liberal. If the Green Party ever becomes a substantial political force I just might do that.
Mulrooney was the First one to be stupid enough to have it out in public.. there's a whole book on just what he took as graft/kickbacks and other assoterd egocentric spenditures.. it opened the way for everyone after that, including governor generals to spend tax money like wild fire on themselves and friends and know they could get away with it..
Nice try, but Mulroney's massive ego is right on par with that of the likes of Trudeau, Diefenbaker (another Conservative), Pearson and Turner--- all predescessors to Mulroney. As for Mulroney's alleged shady dealings and egotistical self-serving observations, the book on these wasn't published until after Cretien's Shawinigate, adscam and Jane Steward's scandals, Turner's patriotism scandal and Trudeau's dabblings into communism (the Soviet spies exposed in 1982 were actually here with Trudeau's blessing. But when reporter Paul Jackson blew their cover Trudeau had to act surprised and expel them. He then clandestinely had the RCMP investigate itself to find the leak within the RCMP that Paul Jackson had confided in--- to no avail).
It's too bad that the conservitives are so stuck in thier 1950's way of thinking were same sex marriage a crime and they weren't so tied to ' christian' ideology about what is or is not social acceptable maybe they'd have a chance.. to me, I'd be voting in the NDP or Green party before I'd let that troop of redneck, bigoted, psuedo brownshirts into power
The Liberal's strategy of presenting the Conservative party as "one that would force Christianity, anti-gay sentiments and 'a-woman's-place-is-in-the-home' bullshit rhetoric on all Canadians if they were ever again in power" has certainly worked on you, hasn't it?
In spite of the fact that there are a few loud voices on the right-leaning lunatic fringe who want the Conservatives to enact such draconian policies (just as there are loud ultra-left flakes who want a communist state and the "equal sharing of misery"), the Conservatives aren't stupid enough to do this or even want this--- they have bigger fish to fry and a federal government system and economy to clean up.
These Liberal smear tactics are simply diversions to keep the ill-informed masses from dwelling on what a ****-poor and corrupt job their own party has been doing, and to keep our focus away from the fact that they are slowly and methodically turning this country into a socialist welfare state. The NDP would do no better and in some ways worse.
Strangely enough, the Green Party (in spite of their name and appeal to enviro-*****) actually seem to have a viable plan--- to promote free enterprise, lean away from socialist ideals and stay out of our bedrooms while at the same time developing environmentally-friendly alternative power sources and holding large polluters accountable without blackmailing them into submission and bankruptcy as Kyoto threatens to do. While it remains to be seen if they'd ever deliver on this promise, I'd vote for them long before I'd ever vote NDP or Liberal. If the Green Party ever becomes a substantial political force I just might do that.
Last edited by Aviator 902S; 11-05-05 at 03:42 PM.
11-05-05, 06:38 PM
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There is one rule in politics, and only one rule. It has been the same rule since people lived in caves.
"Power is everything. Do whatever it takes to stay in power".
Machiavelli wrote a book about 500 YEARS AGO. So, once you understand this, it all makes sense. Thinking anything else is painfully naive and self delusional.
"Power is everything. Do whatever it takes to stay in power".
Machiavelli wrote a book about 500 YEARS AGO. So, once you understand this, it all makes sense. Thinking anything else is painfully naive and self delusional.
I think the naivete lies with those who don't realize just how goddamn hard it is to exist in a political landscape, nevermind trying to work in it to do some good in the world.
Martin wasn't involved in adscam? I believe it. Was he aware of it? Of course he was. Why didn't he ring the alarm over it? Because that would have been the end of his career in Parliament. Whistleblowers tend to have a short half-life, b/c people tend to not trust them afterwards.
'Whatever's going on, make sure I don't know anything about it.'
Blowing the whistle would have alienated Chretien and his cronies, who were running the party. I can understand it if Martin decided to keep his mouth shut and ride it all out until he would finally be in a position to take action without prematurely choking his own political career.
Did he take the high road? Nope. But he did take one I can understand and respect. And I'm glad that he's now the PM, as opposed to the other party leaders. There's something about Harper that makes me think of Palpatine (aka The Emporer) from the Star Wars prequels. There's a lot going on his plans that he's either obfuscating or just plain not sharing (until his colleagues get so disturbed they speak out publicly about him.)
And now we have a growing budget surplus, robust policies for equal rights and freedoms and those involved in Adscam are now enjoying a substantial public raping and pending lawsuits courtesy of the Government they bilked.
"Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch."
Like I said before, many Canadians can overlook all manner of corruption as long as it's committed by a Liberal government, but just let a conservative say one phrase that can somehow be taken out of context and misconstrued...
Originally Posted by Aviator 902S
The Liberal's strategy of presenting the Conservative party as "one that would force Christianity, anti-gay sentiments and 'a-woman's-place-is-in-the-home' bullshit rhetoric on all Canadians if they were ever again in power" has certainly worked on you, hasn't it?
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...ion2004&no_ads=
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../BNStory/Front
http://dawn.thot.net/election2004/gba.htm
Originally Posted by Aviator902s
the Conservatives aren't stupid enough to do this or even want this--- they have bigger fish to fry and a federal government system and economy to clean up.
http://dawn.thot.net/election2004/issues60.htm
11-05-05, 09:54 PM
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Amur:
You seem to be saying:
a.) the prime minister committed ethical transgressions when he was finance minister in order to maintain his political career. (and you respect this)
b.) under Martin's circumstances no one in their right mind would have done otherwise because it would have been political suicide.
c.) we cannot trust the opposition leader because he is intentionally hiding his true motives and plans from us.
d.) Martin's moral murkiness can be over looked because his government has performed well. Is this the basis of your optimism?
I don't think any of this violates the golden rule of politics.
You seem to be saying:
a.) the prime minister committed ethical transgressions when he was finance minister in order to maintain his political career. (and you respect this)
b.) under Martin's circumstances no one in their right mind would have done otherwise because it would have been political suicide.
c.) we cannot trust the opposition leader because he is intentionally hiding his true motives and plans from us.
d.) Martin's moral murkiness can be over looked because his government has performed well. Is this the basis of your optimism?
I don't think any of this violates the golden rule of politics.
11-06-05, 11:33 PM
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[QUOTE=Amur_]
Some of us prefer to have faith that there are people in the world who share an optimistic view of the future and who want to work to make it happen.
I think the naivete lies with those who don't realize just how goddamn hard it is to exist in a political landscape, nevermind trying to work in it to do some good in the world.
Martin wasn't involved in adscam? I believe it. Was he aware of it? Of course he was. Why didn't he ring the alarm over it? Because that would have been the end of his career in Parliament. Whistleblowers tend to have a short half-life, b/c people tend to not trust them afterwards.
'Whatever's going on, make sure I don't know anything about it.'
Blowing the whistle would have alienated Chretien and his cronies, who were running the party. I can understand it if Martin decided to keep his mouth shut and ride it all out until he would finally be in a position to take action without prematurely choking his own political career.
Did he take the high road? Nope. But he did take one I can understand and respect.
Fair enough Amur. Yet with Martin's knowledge of what was going on he could at least have taken the initiative to "get to the bottom of this" sooner than he did, thus preserving his own credibility. If he'd made this promise immediately upon taking office rather than waiting until after the Fraser report was initially released everyone would have found it much easier to believe that he had an itch to get the truth out, but that he had to wait until he was out of reach of big, bad Cretien's instinct for revenge.
The fact that he waited until it became obvious that he was possibly going to be implicated before acting doesn't bode well for him. Gomery hammered most everyone around then-finance minister Martin except for Martin himself. It could be that Martin is innocent. It could also be that Gomery, being an appointed Liberal judge from Quebec, was encouraged to have the chips fall exactly where they did. We can suspect but not prove. (In other news, both Micheal Jackson and O.J. Simpson are innocent, but those are another argument). At worst, Martin is really guilty of being an active participant in this scam, but even I'm not 100% convinced that this is the case. But at best he knew or ought to have known what was going on and as such, should have been more proactive sooner in heading up an inquiry.
On top of that, Martin has taken Canadian Steamship Lines (a business he inherited from his father) and moved it offshore to avoid paying Canadian taxes and to hire cheaper labour. Conveniently, his government has made such moves illegal for just about all Canadian businesses--- except shipping companies. Since becoming PM he has "given" the business to his sons (at least on paper) to avoid a conflict of interest situation.
I can sympathize with just about any Canadian for wanting to legally get out of paying the excessive taxes that Canadians are forced to pay. In fact, I aspire to take advantage of some of the same legal loopholes and encourage others to fight back in similar fashion. But I can't sympathize with a member of our federal and provincial governments' inner circle members living on a very generous and tax-free income at our expense, telling ordinary taxpayers (that's you and me) to keep paying through the nose while they make exceptions for themselves and their family, friends and hangers-on. Having someone with these ethically-bankrupt ideals in power doesn't sit well with me.
On the grand scale of things this one issue may be small potatoes, and Martin isn't the first PM to be guilty of such conflict-of-interest schemes. But on principle it's not to be ignored and is a classic case of why no PM (of any political stripe) should be allowed to remain in power for more than two terms. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Either way,
And I'm glad that he's now the PM, as opposed to the other party leaders. There's something about Harper that makes me think of Palpatine (aka The Emporer) from the Star Wars prequels. There's a lot going on his plans that he's either obfuscating or just plain not sharing (until his colleagues get so disturbed they speak out publicly about him.)
Forgive me for sounding like a broken record but, damn, those Liberal scare tactics sure worked on you, didn't they? As for Harper not sharing his entire plan prior to the election, I seem to recall Martin doing the exact same thing prior to the previous one yet you didn't complain then. I guess it was just wise and prudent pre-election tactics at work. For the record, Harper has just revealed that his first order of business is to overhaul some of the policies that the federal government uses to raise political donations. This would level the playing field, a situation that doesn't sit very well with the Liberals.
And now we have a growing budget surplus, robust policies for equal rights and freedoms
A growing budget surplus on the backs of ordinary Canadians, a decimated military and health care system and huge revenues from fuel taxes on fuel prices that have spiked 50 to 80%.
Robust policies for equal rights, yes. But freedoms? Trudeau's "bringing home of the constitution" in 1982 gave us a charter of "rights and freedoms" that's so vague and full of holes that it can be manipulated to enhance the freedom of the government in power while denying us our own freedom. This is precisely what has and still is taking place before our very eyes. Hear that rumbling noise? That's the sound of tens of thousands of Canadian WWI and WWII casualties spinning in their graves.
and those involved in Adscam are now enjoying a substantial public raping and pending lawsuits courtesy of the Government they bilked.
And so they should.
"Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch."
I'm sure there are a few honest, decent and ethical induviduals within the Liberal party. But always remember, it's not voters who are spoiling the whole bunch--- the corrupt bastards within their own ranks already did an effective job of that without any help from us. If there's any justice in the world these honest Liberals will eventually get their chance to form a government again--- someday.
You can't be serious. Calling the Conservatives own well-publicized comments and numbers bullshit rhetoric?
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/mini/CTVNews/1087002246999_14?s_name=election2004&no_ads=
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040611.elalliance0611/BNStory/Front
http://dawn.thot.net/election2004/gba.htm
Actually I am serious. All three of these sites are are either left-leaning media or Liberal-friendly specific-agenda entities. Exactly what spin did you expect them to put on their stories?
As for the quotes from induviduals within the Conservative party, it's actually encouraging to see that they are allowed to spew such (flawed or otherwise) personal opinions by their leader. Sounds like democracy at work to me, unlike the dictatorship in their opponent's camp. The Liberals don't tolerate such comments leaking out of their member's pie-holes even though several Liberals actually were and are against gay marriages and the like. even ultra-left flake Carolyn Parrish found out that while her superiors agreed with her views they had to get rid of her when she wouldn't cease and desist. I can only imagine how tolerant they'd be of the same public persistence from a member with an opinion they didn't agree with.
Disgruntled political party members of all stripes who have either a) not gotten the promotion they wanted, b) taken an offer from a rival party that they couldn't refuse or c) all of the above can always be counted on to vilify those in their former party. These quotes mean nothing given the situation.
As for the third site, it's true that the Conservative party isn't going out of its way to mention plans for insuring womens' equality. As you've already mentioned, the Liberals have done a marvelous job of just that so why does it need to be done twice? And where does it say the Conservatives plan to take these rights away from women? Yet that's exactly what the liberals would have you believe the Conservatives intend to do. If you honestly believe that then there's nothing I or anyone else can do to help you.
By "clean up," do you mean "sink"?
http://dawn.thot.net/election2004/issues60.htm
Again, more spin by those sympathetic to the Liberal cause. Kinda like the way a car dealer manipulates the numbers so that it looks (on paper at least) that you got a good deal when in fact you got ***-raped. There's just enough truth to lend credibility to the bullshit. Liberals and their supporters undermine their opponents by using conjecture, scare tactics and outright lies. At least the Conservatives can use the Liberal's proven track record to prove their points.
Someday maybe enough eastern Canadian voters will finally connect the dots and turf these power-drunk despots. But it's more likely that the immediate future will see a Liberal majority, along with another referendum in Quebec and later in Alberta as well. Happy landings, Canada.
Some of us prefer to have faith that there are people in the world who share an optimistic view of the future and who want to work to make it happen.
I think the naivete lies with those who don't realize just how goddamn hard it is to exist in a political landscape, nevermind trying to work in it to do some good in the world.
Martin wasn't involved in adscam? I believe it. Was he aware of it? Of course he was. Why didn't he ring the alarm over it? Because that would have been the end of his career in Parliament. Whistleblowers tend to have a short half-life, b/c people tend to not trust them afterwards.
'Whatever's going on, make sure I don't know anything about it.'
Blowing the whistle would have alienated Chretien and his cronies, who were running the party. I can understand it if Martin decided to keep his mouth shut and ride it all out until he would finally be in a position to take action without prematurely choking his own political career.
Did he take the high road? Nope. But he did take one I can understand and respect.
Fair enough Amur. Yet with Martin's knowledge of what was going on he could at least have taken the initiative to "get to the bottom of this" sooner than he did, thus preserving his own credibility. If he'd made this promise immediately upon taking office rather than waiting until after the Fraser report was initially released everyone would have found it much easier to believe that he had an itch to get the truth out, but that he had to wait until he was out of reach of big, bad Cretien's instinct for revenge.
The fact that he waited until it became obvious that he was possibly going to be implicated before acting doesn't bode well for him. Gomery hammered most everyone around then-finance minister Martin except for Martin himself. It could be that Martin is innocent. It could also be that Gomery, being an appointed Liberal judge from Quebec, was encouraged to have the chips fall exactly where they did. We can suspect but not prove. (In other news, both Micheal Jackson and O.J. Simpson are innocent, but those are another argument). At worst, Martin is really guilty of being an active participant in this scam, but even I'm not 100% convinced that this is the case. But at best he knew or ought to have known what was going on and as such, should have been more proactive sooner in heading up an inquiry.
On top of that, Martin has taken Canadian Steamship Lines (a business he inherited from his father) and moved it offshore to avoid paying Canadian taxes and to hire cheaper labour. Conveniently, his government has made such moves illegal for just about all Canadian businesses--- except shipping companies. Since becoming PM he has "given" the business to his sons (at least on paper) to avoid a conflict of interest situation.
I can sympathize with just about any Canadian for wanting to legally get out of paying the excessive taxes that Canadians are forced to pay. In fact, I aspire to take advantage of some of the same legal loopholes and encourage others to fight back in similar fashion. But I can't sympathize with a member of our federal and provincial governments' inner circle members living on a very generous and tax-free income at our expense, telling ordinary taxpayers (that's you and me) to keep paying through the nose while they make exceptions for themselves and their family, friends and hangers-on. Having someone with these ethically-bankrupt ideals in power doesn't sit well with me.
On the grand scale of things this one issue may be small potatoes, and Martin isn't the first PM to be guilty of such conflict-of-interest schemes. But on principle it's not to be ignored and is a classic case of why no PM (of any political stripe) should be allowed to remain in power for more than two terms. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Either way,
And I'm glad that he's now the PM, as opposed to the other party leaders. There's something about Harper that makes me think of Palpatine (aka The Emporer) from the Star Wars prequels. There's a lot going on his plans that he's either obfuscating or just plain not sharing (until his colleagues get so disturbed they speak out publicly about him.)
Forgive me for sounding like a broken record but, damn, those Liberal scare tactics sure worked on you, didn't they? As for Harper not sharing his entire plan prior to the election, I seem to recall Martin doing the exact same thing prior to the previous one yet you didn't complain then. I guess it was just wise and prudent pre-election tactics at work. For the record, Harper has just revealed that his first order of business is to overhaul some of the policies that the federal government uses to raise political donations. This would level the playing field, a situation that doesn't sit very well with the Liberals.
And now we have a growing budget surplus, robust policies for equal rights and freedoms
A growing budget surplus on the backs of ordinary Canadians, a decimated military and health care system and huge revenues from fuel taxes on fuel prices that have spiked 50 to 80%.
Robust policies for equal rights, yes. But freedoms? Trudeau's "bringing home of the constitution" in 1982 gave us a charter of "rights and freedoms" that's so vague and full of holes that it can be manipulated to enhance the freedom of the government in power while denying us our own freedom. This is precisely what has and still is taking place before our very eyes. Hear that rumbling noise? That's the sound of tens of thousands of Canadian WWI and WWII casualties spinning in their graves.
and those involved in Adscam are now enjoying a substantial public raping and pending lawsuits courtesy of the Government they bilked.
And so they should.
"Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch."
I'm sure there are a few honest, decent and ethical induviduals within the Liberal party. But always remember, it's not voters who are spoiling the whole bunch--- the corrupt bastards within their own ranks already did an effective job of that without any help from us. If there's any justice in the world these honest Liberals will eventually get their chance to form a government again--- someday.
You can't be serious. Calling the Conservatives own well-publicized comments and numbers bullshit rhetoric?
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/mini/CTVNews/1087002246999_14?s_name=election2004&no_ads=
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040611.elalliance0611/BNStory/Front
http://dawn.thot.net/election2004/gba.htm
Actually I am serious. All three of these sites are are either left-leaning media or Liberal-friendly specific-agenda entities. Exactly what spin did you expect them to put on their stories?
As for the quotes from induviduals within the Conservative party, it's actually encouraging to see that they are allowed to spew such (flawed or otherwise) personal opinions by their leader. Sounds like democracy at work to me, unlike the dictatorship in their opponent's camp. The Liberals don't tolerate such comments leaking out of their member's pie-holes even though several Liberals actually were and are against gay marriages and the like. even ultra-left flake Carolyn Parrish found out that while her superiors agreed with her views they had to get rid of her when she wouldn't cease and desist. I can only imagine how tolerant they'd be of the same public persistence from a member with an opinion they didn't agree with.
Disgruntled political party members of all stripes who have either a) not gotten the promotion they wanted, b) taken an offer from a rival party that they couldn't refuse or c) all of the above can always be counted on to vilify those in their former party. These quotes mean nothing given the situation.
As for the third site, it's true that the Conservative party isn't going out of its way to mention plans for insuring womens' equality. As you've already mentioned, the Liberals have done a marvelous job of just that so why does it need to be done twice? And where does it say the Conservatives plan to take these rights away from women? Yet that's exactly what the liberals would have you believe the Conservatives intend to do. If you honestly believe that then there's nothing I or anyone else can do to help you.
By "clean up," do you mean "sink"?
http://dawn.thot.net/election2004/issues60.htm
Again, more spin by those sympathetic to the Liberal cause. Kinda like the way a car dealer manipulates the numbers so that it looks (on paper at least) that you got a good deal when in fact you got ***-raped. There's just enough truth to lend credibility to the bullshit. Liberals and their supporters undermine their opponents by using conjecture, scare tactics and outright lies. At least the Conservatives can use the Liberal's proven track record to prove their points.
Someday maybe enough eastern Canadian voters will finally connect the dots and turf these power-drunk despots. But it's more likely that the immediate future will see a Liberal majority, along with another referendum in Quebec and later in Alberta as well. Happy landings, Canada.
Last edited by Aviator 902S; 11-07-05 at 12:01 AM.
11-07-05, 01:10 AM
#14
Amur_ i truly mean no offense, but just stop pull your head of out the liberals add campain *** and look at the facts, the "trust" paul martin, has been allowing millons of your hard saturday afternoon overtime hours go to waste, cause he wanted to save his own ***. that is what i would call a polical *****. has no rights he stands up for, how can we be sure he is not letting his cabinet minstiers blow candy up his *** , so they can do whatever they want. spend YOUR F*CKING Money on whatever they want, bail their freinds out of fincail situations, cause the average law abiding Canadian living on the eastern cost can not see the desolation they are doign to this country. If alberta left the Coutnry you would see dramtic drops in revune all over the board, not saying Alberta pays it all but for province we pay alot, and yet you think it's okay to strip the army of their bullets (don't believe me, i know lots of Army men who were in Kosovo and had no bullets shoot cause some Canadian diplomat was trying out a $8,000 suit, to buy with your money. so if you think either of the last two liberal leaders, are good look at the facts, after staving the whole health care system nation wide and the Deparment of Nation Defence, they start putting ***** back into it years later when people start to notice the money was not coming. you call both of these men legit? or even one of them? paul martin is a sly little ***** who just wants to leave his mark n Canada just like almost every PM, all he cares about is himself, not the country. Qeustion for ya. do you know what "Prime Minister" means? the real meaning behind the words are a "People Server" not a selfish bastard wasting all the money, i have seen a few small things both of the liberals pm's do in order to regain Canadians trust. but you still think about it this way, they basicly slapped the hell outta the milatary and now they wanna suck up and try to help out. imagine this a husband just beats his husband, then in all effort tries to help her after, what kind of peice of **** is he, he wants to help her, you mise well slap her a couple more times make her feel more loved. like that is just inconsiderate. if i was her i'de either beat the **** outta him myself or call the cops, but in the case of the two liberals, it seems that even though they stole millions of dollars or laundered it, they are not criminals........how does that work? if i get a speeding ticket in BC and don't pay it, i'm a crminal, but i geuss stealing money from the Canadian people is okay. well if you want that, i will personally come to Ontario take your money and drop it on the parliments doorstep, they will spend it just the same anywayz. the current day liberal leaders are a bunch of petty theives, that need to be jailed. nothing less.
Prôdigy
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11-07-05, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Prôdigy2nd
Amur_ i truly mean no offense, but just stop pull your head of out the liberals add campain *** and look at the facts, the "trust" paul martin, has been allowing millons of your hard saturday afternoon overtime hours go to waste, cause he wanted to save his own ***. that is what i would call a polical *****. has no rights he stands up for, how can we be sure he is not letting his cabinet minstiers blow candy up his *** , so they can do whatever they want. spend YOUR F*CKING Money on whatever they want, bail their freinds out of fincail situations, cause the average law abiding Canadian living on the eastern cost can not see the desolation they are doign to this country. If alberta left the Coutnry you would see dramtic drops in revune all over the board, not saying Alberta pays it all but for province we pay alot, and yet you think it's okay to strip the army of their bullets (don't believe me, i know lots of Army men who were in Kosovo and had no bullets shoot cause some Canadian diplomat was trying out a $8,000 suit, to buy with your money. so if you think either of the last two liberal leaders, are good look at the facts, after staving the whole health care system nation wide and the Deparment of Nation Defence, they start putting ***** back into it years later when people start to notice the money was not coming. you call both of these men legit? or even one of them? paul martin is a sly little ***** who just wants to leave his mark n Canada just like almost every PM, all he cares about is himself, not the country. Qeustion for ya. do you know what "Prime Minister" means? the real meaning behind the words are a "People Server" not a selfish bastard wasting all the money, i have seen a few small things both of the liberals pm's do in order to regain Canadians trust. but you still think about it this way, they basicly slapped the hell outta the milatary and now they wanna suck up and try to help out. imagine this a husband just beats his husband, then in all effort tries to help her after, what kind of peice of **** is he, he wants to help her, you mise well slap her a couple more times make her feel more loved. like that is just inconsiderate. if i was her i'de either beat the **** outta him myself or call the cops, but in the case of the two liberals, it seems that even though they stole millions of dollars or laundered it, they are not criminals........how does that work? if i get a
Originally Posted by Prôdigy2nd
speeding ticket in BC and don't pay it, i'm a crminal, but i geuss stealing money from the Canadian people is okay. well if you want that, i will personally come to Ontario take your money and drop it on the parliments doorstep, they will spend it just the same anywayz. the current day liberal leaders are a bunch of petty theives, that need to be jailed. nothing less.
Prôdigy
Prôdigy
Hey Prodigy--- up here in Northwest Calgary we use paragraphs.
BTW, the latest development is that Jack Layton has just dropped his support for the Liberals, meaning that if there were a non-confidence vote Martin and company would be packing their bags.
I'm guessing that after seeing what his last move supporting Martin (in return for a few billion directed into social programs) did to his own standing with Canadians (he still sits at only 17% or so), Layton has decided that by throwing his support behind the Conservatives and the Bloc to oust the Liberals he just might gain enough support to eek out a minority NDP victory---- a long shot IMHO.
But of course you can bet Martin will pull Layton aside in the next few days and make him an offer he can't refuse. You just never know with Jack.
11-08-05, 10:58 AM
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I sort of hope we get another election soon. That way it'll be another minority gov't, Harper will be given the boot and the rednecks who control our contry's fate will have no choice but to put McKay or Lord in control and consequently win the next election.
We have a lack of democracy because there has been no opposition and gov't in waiting. The threat of loss and negative attention keeps everyone on their toes and could have prevented much of the crap that has gone on with the Liberals. Even look to the caliber of the individuals who have been involved in the past 11 years of gov't. Most of them are complete tools. Yet even these tools simply looked smugly at the inept opposition realizing they had neither the ability or credability to touch the gov't. Recall how when Clark was grilling them over Shawinagate they repeatedly mispoke in the house and said "...the leader of the opposition..." (refering to Clark). Competance, ability and credability.
Two reasons for the lack of democracy:
1. The public puts little thought or effort into voting.
2. A small number of people who control certain parties make poor choices. In no particular order: A. Liberals insiders who allow for moral decay. B. Radical Conservatives who can't relate with 99% of the rest of the country (ie. the core members in Alberta)
We have a lack of democracy because there has been no opposition and gov't in waiting. The threat of loss and negative attention keeps everyone on their toes and could have prevented much of the crap that has gone on with the Liberals. Even look to the caliber of the individuals who have been involved in the past 11 years of gov't. Most of them are complete tools. Yet even these tools simply looked smugly at the inept opposition realizing they had neither the ability or credability to touch the gov't. Recall how when Clark was grilling them over Shawinagate they repeatedly mispoke in the house and said "...the leader of the opposition..." (refering to Clark). Competance, ability and credability.
Two reasons for the lack of democracy:
1. The public puts little thought or effort into voting.
2. A small number of people who control certain parties make poor choices. In no particular order: A. Liberals insiders who allow for moral decay. B. Radical Conservatives who can't relate with 99% of the rest of the country (ie. the core members in Alberta)
11-08-05, 07:03 PM
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[QUOTE=salamander]Aviator902S:
The golden rule of politics also applies the Conservative governments in Alberta.
Strangely enough I whole-heartedly agree with this statement. It's definitely time for a change, but said change should not include the Liberals or NDP. That would be even worse and as I've stated before, Klien is a closet Liberal at heart.
The only reason Klein is in power is religous faith.
... but this statement on the other hand is an over-generalization on a federal Liberal party-induced myth. While it's true that those who go to church and consider themselves to be Christians almost invariably vote Conservative, they represent a small minority of Alberta's over-all voting poulation.
What keeps people in Alberta voting Conservative in our provincial elections is the same thing that keeps us voting Conservative in our federal elections--- the federal Liberals. Therefore, when those here who currently vote Conservative in provincial elections decide to turf Ralph, their votes will for the most part go not to the Liberals or NDP--- but to the Alberta Alliance Party.
The golden rule of politics also applies the Conservative governments in Alberta.
Strangely enough I whole-heartedly agree with this statement. It's definitely time for a change, but said change should not include the Liberals or NDP. That would be even worse and as I've stated before, Klien is a closet Liberal at heart.
The only reason Klein is in power is religous faith.
... but this statement on the other hand is an over-generalization on a federal Liberal party-induced myth. While it's true that those who go to church and consider themselves to be Christians almost invariably vote Conservative, they represent a small minority of Alberta's over-all voting poulation.
What keeps people in Alberta voting Conservative in our provincial elections is the same thing that keeps us voting Conservative in our federal elections--- the federal Liberals. Therefore, when those here who currently vote Conservative in provincial elections decide to turf Ralph, their votes will for the most part go not to the Liberals or NDP--- but to the Alberta Alliance Party.
Last edited by Aviator 902S; 11-08-05 at 07:06 PM.
11-08-05, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Snrub
I sort of hope we get another election soon. That way it'll be another minority gov't, Harper will be given the boot and the rednecks who control our contry's fate will have no choice but to put McKay or Lord in control and consequently win the next election.
We have a lack of democracy because there has been no opposition and gov't in waiting. The threat of loss and negative attention keeps everyone on their toes and could have prevented much of the crap that has gone on with the Liberals. Even look to the caliber of the individuals who have been involved in the past 11 years of gov't. Most of them are complete tools. Yet even these tools simply looked smugly at the inept opposition realizing they had neither the ability or credability to touch the gov't. Recall how when Clark was grilling them over Shawinagate they repeatedly mispoke in the house and said "...the leader of the opposition..." (refering to Clark). Competance, ability and credability.
Two reasons for the lack of democracy:
1. The public puts little thought or effort into voting.
2. A small number of people who control certain parties make poor choices. In no particular order: A. Liberals insiders who allow for moral decay. B. Radical Conservatives who can't relate with 99% of the rest of the country (ie. the core members in Alberta)
We have a lack of democracy because there has been no opposition and gov't in waiting. The threat of loss and negative attention keeps everyone on their toes and could have prevented much of the crap that has gone on with the Liberals. Even look to the caliber of the individuals who have been involved in the past 11 years of gov't. Most of them are complete tools. Yet even these tools simply looked smugly at the inept opposition realizing they had neither the ability or credability to touch the gov't. Recall how when Clark was grilling them over Shawinagate they repeatedly mispoke in the house and said "...the leader of the opposition..." (refering to Clark). Competance, ability and credability.
Two reasons for the lack of democracy:
1. The public puts little thought or effort into voting.
2. A small number of people who control certain parties make poor choices. In no particular order: A. Liberals insiders who allow for moral decay. B. Radical Conservatives who can't relate with 99% of the rest of the country (ie. the core members in Alberta)
There are some here in Alberta who actually want the Liberals to form a majority government after the next election--- not because they have any faith in them, but because they want the Libs to just go ahead and try to ***-rape Alberta again. This would push the separatist vote in this province to well over 50%.
11-08-05, 07:19 PM
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No, what I meant was that Albertans vote conservative because it is the cultural heritage of this province rather than their policies are so much better than anyone else. I did not mean to refer to the religous right. My mistake.
11-08-05, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by salamander
No, what I meant was that Albertans vote conservative because it is the cultural heritage of this province rather than their policies are so much better than anyone else. I did not mean to refer to the religous right. My mistake.
As for voting due to cultural heritage vs. policies, it's the "policy" of the federal Liberals of screwing Alberta (to keep us from becoming too wealthy thus threatening to shift the balance of power westward) that has the biggest impact on which box we check off at the polls.
11-12-05, 11:12 AM
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All I can say after reading this crap is I'm glad the elections are decided BEFORE they get to Alberta.. You can keep your brand of politics, I pity the women and persons of 'other' unaccepted beliefs and dispositions.. has the fortnightly witch burning for each shire been enacted yet?
11-12-05, 02:26 PM
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[QUOTE=doridori-rx7]
All I can say after reading this crap is I'm glad the elections are decided BEFORE they get to Alberta..
So are the Liberals. How the hell are they supposed to ever realize their goal of moving beyond a socialist regime and making the jump from defacto socialist to an eventual Liberal totalitarian rule if those damn Albertans succeed in getting the Conservatives elected?
You can keep your brand of politics, I pity the women and persons of 'other' unaccepted beliefs and dispositions.. has the fortnightly witch burning for each shire been enacted yet.
Yup, the Libs have surely succeeded with you in their quest to convince you that the Conservatives would trample on the rights of women, gays and minorities.
Fortunately, most Albertans aren't this gullible. But take heart, young Liberal citizen--- the Liberals will likely win another majority soon and when they do they'll try to make another run on Alberta's economy. This will both keep the balance of power from shifting westward, and the loot flowing from the west to subsidize the east. The only thing that could go wrong is that Alberta could (gasp!) separate!
Where's the gravy train going to come from then? Ontario (as diverse as their economy is) can't shoulder this burden alone. But what's Ottawa to do to stop Alberta from separating? Sic their decimated military on us?
All I can say after reading this crap is I'm glad the elections are decided BEFORE they get to Alberta..
So are the Liberals. How the hell are they supposed to ever realize their goal of moving beyond a socialist regime and making the jump from defacto socialist to an eventual Liberal totalitarian rule if those damn Albertans succeed in getting the Conservatives elected?
You can keep your brand of politics, I pity the women and persons of 'other' unaccepted beliefs and dispositions.. has the fortnightly witch burning for each shire been enacted yet.
Yup, the Libs have surely succeeded with you in their quest to convince you that the Conservatives would trample on the rights of women, gays and minorities.
Fortunately, most Albertans aren't this gullible. But take heart, young Liberal citizen--- the Liberals will likely win another majority soon and when they do they'll try to make another run on Alberta's economy. This will both keep the balance of power from shifting westward, and the loot flowing from the west to subsidize the east. The only thing that could go wrong is that Alberta could (gasp!) separate!
Where's the gravy train going to come from then? Ontario (as diverse as their economy is) can't shoulder this burden alone. But what's Ottawa to do to stop Alberta from separating? Sic their decimated military on us?
11-12-05, 09:16 PM
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you can call liberal on me all you want.. if that's your best then you suck at this.. ( BTW I was a reform party member from the begining in the 80's, IN Ontario ). WTF are you talking about gravy train.. in case you don't watch the news You don't send anything but the std, Ontario assisted federal payments .. you KEEP ANY profits from gas.. so in reality we'd be much better off without you. Hows it feel to be on par with the seperatist whiners from Quebec.. wah wah , we aren't getting our way.. were going to seperate.. blah blah heard it in the 70's and 80's AND 90's big deal, blow me.
11-13-05, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by doridori-rx7
you can call liberal on me all you want.. if that's your best then you suck at this.. ( BTW I was a reform party member from the begining in the 80's, IN Ontario ). WTF are you talking about gravy train.. in case you don't watch the news You don't send anything but the std, Ontario assisted federal payments .. you KEEP ANY profits from gas.. so in reality we'd be much better off without you. Hows it feel to be on par with the seperatist whiners from Quebec.. wah wah , we aren't getting our way.. were going to seperate.. blah blah heard it in the 70's and 80's AND 90's big deal, blow me.
Doesn't take much to get under your celibate-against-your-will skin, does it?
For the record, here's some numbers for you:
Net cost for each Ontarian for transfer payments to other provinces (difference between money sent out and money poured back into the province): around $1900. (Commendable)
Cost for each Albertan for transfer payments to other provinces: $2914. (above and beyond the call).
Revenue that Alberta received last year from oil and gas royalties: $8.5 billion.
Net amount that Alberta sent out last year in transfer payments (difference between what was sent and what came back via programs, etc: $9.4 billion.
Do the math. This means Alberta gave Ottawa and the have-not provinces ALL of their oil revenue--- plus 900 million dollars. This also means that on a per-capita basis Alberta contibutes about 50% more than Ontarians.
Here's more numbers:
Percentage of Albertans that wanted to separate before the NEP: 10%
Percentage of Albertans that wanted to separate during and after the NEP: 25%
Percentage of Albertans that want to separate right now: 40%
Projected percentage of Albertans that will want to flush Canada down the toilet if the feds make another grab for our economic livelihood: 60%.
Wouldn't it be nice if ALL eastern Canadians (including Martin and company) felt the same way you do about Alberta separating? Alberta would be better off, eastern Canadians would think they were better off and therefore be happy, you could then lighten up and maybe even get laid...