KenSpeC

iTrader: (16)

Hey everyone, I was just planning my oil system (bearings, thermostat, coolers etc) and I was wondering is there merit to running an accusump reservoir in our motors? Aside from pre-oiling during start up?

Ive only seen it in piston engines....ive seen it in a few LS engines....but not rotaries...

thoughts?

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Vent your motor properly and don't try to reinvent the wheel like Howard Coleman and have your motors fail because of silly things.

If you want to prelube your motor on startup, hook up a switch that kills ECU power and use that during startup. Not that it would do anything... Our motors don't have those types of issues.

thewird

zeeshan

iTrader: (14)

ken it doesn't matter if you have a rotary or a piston engine. both have journal bearings on the eccentric shaft/crankshaft. both use an oil pickup that is located in a gravity fed oil pan. if you are pulling serious g forces with your car you will be sloshing that oil around and possibly starving the oil pump temporarily from getting oil and thus increasing wear on your journal bearings considerably. its a 50/50 situation, i highly recommend accusump on your application

thewird

iTrader: (8)

The FD pan is baffled... With proper venting you can keep the pan full and not have an issue. Venting is the key to a proper oil setup, Accusump is a bandaid.

thewird

FC3Sdrift

iTrader: (5)

if your that worried about oil starvation why not just use the pineapple racing high capacity oil pan FD Aluminum Oil Pan

thewird

iTrader: (8)

The Xcessive oil pan would need to have baffles made and the pickup tube modified to sit lower for it to work properly. The Ottawa race team learned that the hard way (they lost an engine because of an oil pan...).

thewird

R.P.M.

iTrader: (3)

By bandaid you mean safegaurd right?

FC3Sdrift

iTrader: (5)

the pineappe oil pans have baffles and the way they're set up you dont need to extend the feed . I've been planning on getting one for my FC since I friction welded my front stationary gear bearing to the eccentric shaft taking turn one at cayuga full blast but I bought a couple FD's instead. I had to use a chisel and hammer to peel it off the eccentric shaft. It made tearing down the engine pretty rediculous, lot of hammering. al the other bearings were good. ruined the eccentric shaft and stationary gear obviously, but I cracked the front iron oil feed when i was trying to get the front iron/stationary gear seperated from the eccentric shaft, which is alot better than the whole engine

thewird

iTrader: (8)

The plate on top of the pan is not a baffle. THat is just to reduce the air content in the oil. There are no baffles in the Xcessive oil pans. Also, the pickup does not reach the bottom. How can the stock pickup grow when the pan gets deeper LOL.

However, the Xcessive pan is not needed over the FD pan if proper venting is in place. Both Jim and I have run the stock pan for years at multiple tracks. If you bench racers think you can pull more G's then our cars, go ahead and get try to reinvent the wheel. Not trying to be an *******, just stating my opinion based on REAL experience. Long day, don't take offense please.

FC3Sdrift, I'm not sure if the FC pans are different height then the FD pans. I'm speaking specifically for the FD pan.

This is the Xcessive oil pan...



This is the Xcessive oil pan with proper baffling...



Another design...



This is a pickup tube spacer to be at PROPER height...



thewird

charger-

iTrader: (1)

Have you every used one? You seem oblivious to the fact that its benefits extend beyond helping with poor oil pick up.

R.P.M.

iTrader: (3)

FC3SDrift, just a question about that pic you posted.
Dont take this the wrong way but was that an engine you built? Did you re-use old bearings through-out the engine? I'm more curious than anything.

Thewird and zeeshan are both right, a nicely vented system with stock oil pan will work totally fine.

But now what happens if a rock hits your oil cooler, puts a decent sized pin hole in it? It quietly leaks oil out onto the track while your ripping corners to try and pull off a decent lap time all the while your oil pan has 1/2 a litre less oil in it now.....oh no! No baffled oil pans or vented oil system is going to help you at that point.

Or how about an oil cooler hose that has been chaffing on that piece of sheet metal for the whole season? Last race of the year and it finally starts leaking, it drops a litre of oil out of your baffled oil pan. Damn, wish I had an accusump now!

All the professional race teams I have worked with have used an accusump system. Its there as a safegaurd. I guess thats what seperates the professional car builders from the amatures.

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

I think you guys are talking past each other and not listening to each other. You are all correct to a certain degree.

To Summarize:
1) The GZ oil pan is NOT baffled - the plate you see is a deaerator/"windage tray" (and the windage tray is useless for a rotary - DUH!)
2) baffling any pan in a track car is really a necessity. Especially for the GZ pan - it's too big a volume of oil moving around under high g-loads
3) I don't believe the accusump is intended for repeated cyclic type use. If you are relying on it for this you have major issues. The real benefit is to protect an engine in the event of catastrophic loss in oil pressure - oil pump failure, clogged oil pickup, blown hose fitting, punctured oil cooler, or even in a rollover.

The real answer is a dry sump system. but if money is tight and there are regulatory or other limitations we make do and an accusump can save you and engine.

FWIW one of those pan pics is mine (I appreciate the comment);
Triple-R: Engine Rebuild - GZ Aluminum Oil Pan
Regards,
Crispy

KenSpeC

iTrader: (16)

Glad that this topic is generating good discussion.

From the research I have done since posting this think that an accusump would be a great insurance item ($300 for a setup) is cheap insurance in my book. And no i wont be relying on it as my oiling system will be overkill as it. And no Crispy I will not sell my kidneys for a dry sump....though tempting lol.

I will indeed vent my oil system appropriately since that is almost a free mod lol.

safe and insurance people dont usually think about....until they need it and dont have it and wish they did.

Again there will always be a difference in opinions since most of the guys that post here have been involved in racing and actually use their cars :P , we have experimented with things that we have had success with and others not. I hope that this will just be another one of those worthwhile experiments that will pay off in the future if someone else wants to run this set up.

+1 for using the accusump for my build

RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

Bench racer.

FC3Sdrift

iTrader: (5)

no pic is from a few years ago when i was rebuilding that engine , it had some cracked corner seals anyways I had a rebuild kit sitting at home to rebuid it, but its still running strong 10k later I just used a different front stationary gear and eccentric shaft when i rebuilt it, I used to just vent the line to the atmosphere cuz nothin really came out on the street, or the drags, thats when i learned the importance of an oil catch can on a road course hahahaha

simgabe

iTrader: (8)

Come on, Ken does not own a Honda.

FC3Sdrift

iTrader: (5)

The only things that's broke since i rebuilt it are the drivers side axle snapped in 2 and i ripped all the teeth off third gear

I want to get it dynoed again the 361whp 309ft-lbs was stock ports cleaned up runners cracked cornerseals S5 hybrid turbo @16psi ,2.5"DP chipped ecu and afc neo, ran 11.8's , now its ported 3" dp and has megasquirt and runs 11.42 so im hoping i picked up atleast 40whp to beat bnrs record of 403whp

but i guess im just a bench racer, except i actually do know how to turn my car too I just drag race it because i can drive 10kms from my house pay $20 and do 200km/h rips all night and not get my car impounded

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I guess if you don't watch your gauges it might be a good idea. But realistically, how many seconds does it really give you of not noticing your oil pressure gauge bouncing in corners. It's not like a single dip pressure will cause catastrophic engine damage. Years ago before I properly vented my engine from 3 sides, I used to have bouncing oil pressure around Mosport since the oil was just being pushed out from any hole under pressure from the oil pan and the pan would run low. I just kept topping up the pan every session and stayed the whole day. It's still the same engine in the car today (though its coming out for the 20b now). Any "professional" racer should be watching his gauges and be able to recall his water and oil temps from every lap. They should notice the problem quick enough and then decide to keep pushing it for the sake of a position or lap time, or shut down the engine and pit.

Your pretty set on getting it, so just get it. Its one of those times where your gonna do it regardless of what people tell you. I do that all the time so I can't judge haha. I just think the money could be better spent elsewhere :P. If installed right, I guess it can't hurt anything

FC3Sdrift, what was your rotor bearing clearances?

thewird

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

FWIW I never installed an accusump in my racecar but all my piston driven colleagues it was THE FIRST thing they installed! LOL
Regards,
Crispy

FC3Sdrift

iTrader: (5)

ive been working on getting everything perfect on my cars before i went back had some kids and stuff i plan on going to all the sigma events this year
The fc pPR pan is totally different , than the xs one they sell i never saw the inside the the fd one before i figured they would hae atleast made it as good. the stock fc ones are **** the FD's stock pans do have nice baffles in them

FC3Sdrift

iTrader: (5)

my rotor bearing clearances were there was no copper at all showing on the rotor bearings. and a low km eccentric shaft, i used rotary ressurections rebuild pdf he had up thats how he said to check, and that he would rather use a lightly used bearing than press in new ones because it shaves off a thin layer of metal and had seen more spun bearings on engines that have had them replaced

i didnt have and oil catch can took the corner hard oil sprayed out got on my tires i did a quick 180 and dumped more out got all in my alt and everywhere i was paying attention to volt meter flashing and watching the volts drop tried to drive off the track and it locked up, my buzzer was broke lol noob mistake but the fc oil pans are shitty in my defence

we'll see how I do this summer in my FAMspeed rx7 w ith its fresh rebuid :P

FC3Sdrift

iTrader: (5)

it was a worn jdm engine i beat on for over 20k kms the oil control rings were probably on there last legs before the high G oil dumping finished it off,it was rebuilt in j-pan tho with 3mm seals and a FD rear stationary gear and bearing so who knows if they were original bearings the housings were almost like new

R.P.M.

iTrader: (3)

LOL you'd be surprised!

Last season I was a mechanic on a World Challenge team, at the Laguna Seca race my driver was smashing the rev limiter at the top of 4th or 5th gear (cant remember exactly) on the long uphill climb to the top of the corkscrew. He said he didn't realize he was hitting the limiter that badly, datalogging proved massive limiter smashing happend for more than 3sec. WTF? Check your gauges much?

Heres the engine after the second practice session just 2 hours before qualifying...



When its your own personal car with your own money into it.....then yes I can see you paying a bit more attention to the gauges and the well-being of your motor. But when sponser money has you in the drivers seat of a rental car....

OK I massively dis-agree with this statement.

NEVER should an old bearing be used in an engine rebuild.

I've been building Rotaries now for over 12 years and I've learned a few things from first hand real world experiences. Used bearings can be meaured to within factory spec and show no signs of cooper and some do last forever with no problems, but I've had them fail on the dyno with perfect oil pressure with over 2000kms on the rebuild. (plenty of time to break in)
One particular engine cost me HUGE $$$ out of my pocket to repair because it destroyed the rotor, all the seals, front and middle iron.

Ever since then I will not build an engine unless I'm installing new bearings PERIOD. For how much new bearings costs, why would you not do it!?!?
Since I have been installing brand new bearings in every engine I build, NEVER have I had a bearing failure or oiling issue.


Think about it, when you pay for a rebuilt engine in your Chev, Ford, Dodge, Honda, Nissan, Hyundia, Kia and old bearings were re-used, you'd be pissed!! WTF kind of engine rebuild is that?

If your installing new bearings in the rotors and stat gears and having them fail, then your doing it wrong. Plain and simple.
I use the Mazda OEM bearing press tools and Permatex green Retaining Compound. No secrets, no voodoo magic, just simple logic and years of experience.

Bwek

iTrader: (4)

I could get my oil light on at cayuga on turns 3-4 i think they were, i had my pan overfilled a quart and still got the split second flash of the oil pressure light/buzzer and this was on 225 width street tires and an S5 N/a albeit lots of suspension work and alignments lol

KenSpeC

iTrader: (16)

Wow kudos to you Marco if you are able to keep your eye on your gauges as you are attacking those corners, i know i cant multi-task when im making sure i dont mess my corners. Honestly the only time i have to give a quick glance at my gauges are on the straights and in between corners...and when i feel something is amiss with the car and at that point it may be too late.
I dont pretend to be a "professional" racer by any means and anyone who thinks that a few timeattacks and having a fast car is diluted with illusions of grandeur lol. I just enjoy building and driving