KILLA_B13

The Capella of Jake at JSR, plated 'ND4SPD', pulled the magic figure today at 24psi on lower Australian pump fuel, using the RICE RACING water injection system. This was done on a dyno calibrated 3 weeks ago, at a dyno day which figures are comparable to other cars which ensures it is totally transparent. This car runs up to 28psi on the street!

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

Videos of the car on the page (and other older dyno readouts).

This cars on road performance, durability and relability after taking a total thrashing after thrasing while smashing out these figures and performance on road on a regular basis simply proves it in the rotary application.

Picture of the dyno readout to come!

Max13BREW

Insane car Jake has there....the WI system by Pete is so damn good its not funny, simple, problem free and 100% proven..

Funnily enough I have one for sale somewhere

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

straight water, not water/meth?

That's impressive... if it's set up to drag race he should bring it to the pump gas drags in the USA, first import I've seen that might have a chance!

Max13BREW

I am far from an expert, but am an avid student studying all I can on this gear...

But lets try to compare apples and apples here...and hopefully end up with a realistic argument before this gets out of hand..

From what I have seen the Dyno Dynamics dynos as used to obtain the 600rwhp are approx 5% lower in their readings as an absolute minimum over the dynos normally used in the USA...which would equate to around 600rwhp+5% = 630rwhp..

Next..remember this is in an older car with more parasitic losses than for example an FD3s (EG its horrible Ford 9" power sapping diff...). Which for the sake of this discourse, I will not include but keep it in the back of your mind

Now..people have stated this figure has been achieved before on pump fuel with Meth AI...thats all fine, but are we talking minimal AI, or are we talking 20--30% methanol??
I do not think anyone would argue that at 20-30% Methanol, the car is no longer considered "Pump fuel"

Can I see some "true" competitors specs..comparisons based 1:1 pump fuel with realistic AI levels, and please people lose the atitude..so much agro..so quickly..its unbecoming...

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

this section is about all aspects of turbo'd rotaries running any AI systems. all are welcome. emphasis is on content. it's great that you made X hp or ran your AI on track but ideally what we all want to know is the details. how did you do it.

for instance, my thread on the newest FJO system details that i ended up w varying pressures behind my two solenids/injectors. so i added a pressure regulator and a return line to my tank and now have constant pressure.

there's lots of new things going on w AI and many more people are either doing it or planning to do it.

what this section is not about is claims that one system is better than others. each system has it's plusses and minuses. take your pick. want to run water? fine. want to run a mix? fine want to run alcohol? fine. just do it and share it.

this section has been to the "mine is the best movie" the ending of this movie is always thermo-nuclear war. you would have had to have been here to appreciate the heat and all for nothing.

you want to talk up your setup? fine. we'd love to hear engineering. you want to tell us all that your setup is the best, find another forum. it isn't going to happen here.

as to comments above such as "no one would argue" that 20-30% meth shouldn't be considered pump fuel...

and your point is??????????????????????????

this section is about improving engine performance by using anything in addition to pump fuel. i run 20-30% meth w my pump. do i care what you want to call what i put in my engine? "realistic AI levels." who are you to tell me what is a realistic AI level? you do your thing and I will do mine. you run water, i'll run meth and we both will be way ahead of the dopes that don't run AI.

i also suggest you read all of the thread is this section and when you are through read the 200 plus pages of threads in the Turbobuick section sonce as you say you are an avid student.... just like we all are.

KILLA_B13

Sorry mate didn't mean to get your back up at all? If anything your response was rather rude and blunt. Happy to be disproved. I'm just excited is all, just an individual who attended a club dyno day who continues to monitor top power, and what works with pump fuel, what can be used on a daily basis with all that you can obtain at petrol stations here in Australia, so I can't speak for you over there.

I guess in an extreme sense also I'm referring to comparison such as this, which on the same engine left WI ahead:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...rade-fuel.html

http://enginehistory.org/Frank%20WalkerWeb1.pdf

RXHEAVEN_WA

OMG

RR system looks like the Don Amazing that it is done with 100% pump fuel only too WOW, surely that has to be some type of record right there? Amazing record rewriting stuff no matter which camp you sit in. Cannot not believe total indifference shown when such an EPIC demonstration has been shared with the community too.

I think you will find lots of engineering information on Rice Racing web site, and you could obviously call or e-mail him if there are more specific details that I'm sure we would all love to look over in the finest detail given the nature of what has just been posted.

Thanks for letting us know about this absolutely amazing world first

RXHEAVEN_WA

Pity Rice Racing is not welcome? Way to lose the most content on water injection, I remember reading the absolute slander and witch hunt conducted against him by people like BDC for month after month saying his results are just "claims" and "not proven".

I guess like the best you cant keep em down and least the enthusiasts who are interested in water injection and its proven benefits can still hear about it when we post up about the results like this one Can't wait for the dyno sheet

Peace out anyway, and I hope we can all learn from the Don of WI and Rotaries in the world, not just Australia as the title has been modified in this thread. I believe credit should be given rather than doctoring and selling down the title of the thread to diminish the stand out performance that has been claimed *pending dyno sheet*.

RXHEAVEN_WA

Um it is pretty clear.....

You are spraying a race fuel into your engine hence you cannot claim it is pump fueled anymore. Simple proof of this is take your pump fuel and then mix 20% or whatever ratio you are using with it and please post back the octane rating.

Sandy is totally correct in that there is no way people should claim pump fuel (since its not). The water injection method is just that water......... it is not a fuel. Hence I can see his point and I think most would agree with what he is saying. No malice is intended at all I suppose it is just if you take offense to him pointing out the obvious facts.

evilg

I for one am not a big fan of the idea of methanol. So thanks for this info... I will be hitting up Rice Racing for an amazing water injection kit soon!

edit: why is Rice racing banned? Clearly the guy knows his stuff?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"I believe credit should be given rather than doctoring and selling down the title of the thread to diminish the stand out performance that has been claimed *pending dyno sheet*."

credit should be given. i agree 100%. congrats from me.

as to adding Australian i thought it would be best for the poster so he would not later run into someone relating to other earlier 600 AI results, for instance:

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/full-bridge-gt42-dyno-789741/

perhaps a better title qualifier might be "water injected"... i would be happy to re-edit whatever you would like.

hc

Max13BREW

Howard,
I am more than happy to support results in ANY form that is reliable. I am adverse to the assumption that AI in quantities that completely change base fuel content (for example 20-30-40-50%) of a higher octane fuel should be considered in the same light of day as AI used as an "auxillary" addition. Perhaps this brings to light a major discrepency of those who are using AI / WI in a style suitable for street use (Not many places allow 30% meth mixes to run on the streets) as opposed to those who are injecting copious quantities of a high octane race only fuel with pump fuel, and still claiming to be pump fuelled...
As stated...Apples with Apples...

Now, as I stated if others have 600+rwhp reliably with an auxillary injection (Not replacement fuel style) setup, please feel free to highlight as I for one would be very interested...the more the merrier ..

One liners from people with attitudes however I am sure are not welcome either here, or on any other forum, as it simply shows and highlights the belligerent nature of the ill informed poorly educated majority.

I am unsure, and would love to know (As stated earlier I am happy to learn) what rate the coolingmist setup Jason is using in your thread would be injecting at? 100% is all he states on straight meth injection? Can anyone define what kind of percentage this would be? Would it be in the auxillery injection quantities? or more in the replacement racing fuel style quantity? IE is it a true pump fuel warrior? Very good figures either way...just depends on definition of fuel...

slo

iTrader: (1)

how about some actual details of the setup, so far we know its from RR and its water only.

Pre turbo, post turbo or both?

Control method (mechanical/electronic)?

What was the octane of the base fuel used?

Ign system?

Max13BREW

I will answer as best I can, and if mistaken I will get Pete from Rice Racing to correct me. As such, please take this as best knowledge from an outsider only.

Mechanical , pre turbo.
Ignition is CDI...not sure what type.
Fuel used is 98 Octane RON Unleaded (Not MON as used in USA...) I think this equates to your 92 MON???

slo

iTrader: (1)

I am assuming its the classic boost pressurized tank with a shower nozzle spraying directly on the compressor.

We actually use avg of RON and MON, I believe 98 RON is 94-95 by our rating, which is our premium from most of the US other than CA.

RXHEAVEN_WA

http://www.shell.com/home/content/av..._30071515.html


"The other more significant problem with unleaded fuels is that of Octane rating.



Octane rating is a measure of how resistant a fuel is to detonation or "pinking"; the higher the Octane rating, the more the fuel / air mixture can be compressed without detonation happening. To make this clear, octane rating is not a measure of the amount energy in the fuel, but is a measure of its resistance to detonation. The advantage or higher octane fuels is that a higher compression ratio or supercharging ratio can be used, which then leads to a higher engine cycle efficiency, which in turn means more power output for a given fuel burn. However, to confuse things further, there are four principal ways to measure Octane rating, RON, MON, Lean Mixture and Rich Mixture ratings.



Road fuels tend to be measured on a RON scale, for which unleaded fuels tend to be 95 - 98 RON but are only 85 - 87 MON."

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...icial%26sa%3DN

By this definition its 92.5 USA rating, but is this where I mention the car as I understand it has run on 95 RON fuel as well which works out to 90 USA Octane rating

The system is a very advanced air/water atomizer, far smaller droplet size than any other fluid only sprayer regardless of pump pressure. You can see the system parts below on Rice's site.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

Either way it is a SICK EFFORT! and of lower octane any which way you care to cut it compared to others using a blend of race gas in meth, so no way can you take anything away from it.

Just though it would be good to clear that one up for anyone in doubt.

slo

iTrader: (1)

Nice looking tank, he chose the wrong valve though that valve is intended for: "Compressed air, vacuum, inert gases" and happens to be the same one used by haltech, AEM etc as a boost control valve (its available from mac at 1/6th the price that haltech sells it for too). It will eventually fail being used with water. He should use a diaphragm valve, preferably a pressure controlled mechanical one.

As far as using an HVLP nozzle, an interesting idea, there are also much smaller nozzles that use the same principle available.

RXHEAVEN_WA

He has been using the same valves for over a decade I think the Don know's

Though I would love to see your kit, link? always open to others proven products

BDC

Lots of rhetoric and yet again, same as with Rice's claims (or is it really Rxheaven_WA in disguise again?), there's no specs provided. Please post up what kind of hardware was used (engine, turbo, fuel system, all that kinda stuff). Like the last time, I don't buy it at all until I see some real technical information. Rice never provided it even though I continuously asked him and pointed in that direction. Instead, he cussed people out (myself probably the most) and made verbal attacks over and over again, dodging the questions. You don't have to call people names and make fun of them on dyno sheets like a 12-yr old spoiled kid when the truth is on your side. It speaks for itself.

Witch hunter? For erring on the side of skepticism in asking for technical specifications of a setup and for proof of nearly unbelievable and unmatched claims? Yes, I'm a witch hunter then and no I don't drink the koolaid. Throw your darts at me all you'd like. It's flattering. Atleast with my claims I'm exhaustive on all of the details, good and bad. Can't say the same at all about Rice's claims.

B

KILLA_B13

I was there at the Summernats when this same car pulled 588hp.

I was present at this dyno day when this car pulled 600hp.

There are videos of this car pulling 430rwkW.

Not sure what more you need for it to be fact or 'buy it' for you?

evilg

Nothing short of BDC flying over to Aus and watching this car on the dyno is going to make him believe... and even then he'll probably tell you the dyno is rigged or something.

Witch hunting is one thing, but it gets to the point where it becomes so absurd, its absolutely laughable.

BDC, proof works both ways.... why don't you try and prove it ISN'T possible?

KILLA_B13

I guess you make a point. It is simply a logical fallacy to say that something isn't true while being unable to be disproved.

To 'not buy' the claims is a little odd, given the mountain of evidence and back up. If BDC is genuinely interested in Water Injection for his vehicle as an option there are nicer ways to ask for specs and further information . Really, I don't want this thread being turned into a **** fight.

RXHEAVEN_WA

http://react.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1457&start=60

"Here are the results from the dyno day at Autotech in Hume:

Owner - Car - Power - engine
Keith - s5 rx-7 - 174.6 kW - 13bt
Cookie - s2 rx-7 - 256.3 kW - 13bt
Calum - s5 rx-7 - 281.6 kW - 13bt
Callan - Cosmo - 179.8 kW - 20b
Matt - s2 rx-7 - 143.0 kW - 13bt
Jake - Capella - 448.3 kW - 13bbpt = 601.18rwhp!!!
Trent - s5 rx-7 - 282.0 kW - 13bbpt?
Roman - s3 rx-7 - 179.4 kW - 13bt

I think I got everyone's engine type correct, but I'm not sure on what porting people have had done. Overall it seems that WI (plus engine building talent Wink) makes for big power, while a decent porting job with a larger turbo will comfortably get over 200 kW.

Many thanks to Ed and Paul for looking after us again."

And list of ALL results from all dyno days (most recent to be added) held on this set up for anyone wanting raise the BS flags.... http://react.org.au/forum/viewtopic....t=dyno+results

KILLA_B13

Thanks Luke. Beat me to it . Can't dispute that posted and witnessed by so many at the club dyno day.

Jay7 Nyc

iTrader: (3)

I've talked to Rice about his WI a few years ago. Back then it was a bulky system that was kinda hard to put somewhere in the car without looking like a race car. How big or small is his entire system now? Anyone have pictures?