Aquamist Introducing the new DDS3-v8 failsafe system
12-06-06 | 07:40 AM
#2
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
GETTING TO KNOW THE DDS3 v8
As water injection is playing a more and more important role in power tuning, there is more need to
have a "fail-safe" mechanism in place to detect the presence of water, thus preventing the engine
from damaging itself through excess heat causeing the onset of detonation. DDS3 water flow
monitoring system is designed to meet this criteria,
The latest DDS3 v8 hardware update allows the unit to work with virtually any water injection system
on the market. The 52mm Dash Gauge can be configured to detect a very wide flow range thanks
to the revised flow sensor translation software, supplying data to a high intensity 8-segment led
Bargraph display. The turbine flow sensor has also undergone a major mechanical enhancement to
increase its flow range. Extending the flow up from 450 to 1000 cc/min is only a few clicks on the
Sensor Calibration (CS) trimmer.
Failsafe detection circuitry has also been upgraded, it can now read Fuel injector duty cycle as well
as MAP sensor. This new feature allows the DDS3 to be integrated with many other non-Aquamist
water injection systems on the market seamlessly, All materials used are still 100% Methanol and
Ethanol compatible.
The complete kit comes with a water level sensor, a signal conditioning junction box, a turbine flow
sensor and a industry standard 52mm dash gauge. The gauge is backlit, automatic dimming for night
driving. The gauge is now so well equipped that one can build a complete single stage water
injection system (to be followed) by just adding a water pump, a relay and a spraying nozzle, with absolute
safety as standard.
As water injection is playing a more and more important role in power tuning, there is more need to
have a "fail-safe" mechanism in place to detect the presence of water, thus preventing the engine
from damaging itself through excess heat causeing the onset of detonation. DDS3 water flow
monitoring system is designed to meet this criteria,
The latest DDS3 v8 hardware update allows the unit to work with virtually any water injection system
on the market. The 52mm Dash Gauge can be configured to detect a very wide flow range thanks
to the revised flow sensor translation software, supplying data to a high intensity 8-segment led
Bargraph display. The turbine flow sensor has also undergone a major mechanical enhancement to
increase its flow range. Extending the flow up from 450 to 1000 cc/min is only a few clicks on the
Sensor Calibration (CS) trimmer.
Failsafe detection circuitry has also been upgraded, it can now read Fuel injector duty cycle as well
as MAP sensor. This new feature allows the DDS3 to be integrated with many other non-Aquamist
water injection systems on the market seamlessly, All materials used are still 100% Methanol and
Ethanol compatible.
The complete kit comes with a water level sensor, a signal conditioning junction box, a turbine flow
sensor and a industry standard 52mm dash gauge. The gauge is backlit, automatic dimming for night
driving. The gauge is now so well equipped that one can build a complete single stage water
injection system (to be followed) by just adding a water pump, a relay and a spraying nozzle, with absolute
safety as standard.
12-06-06 | 08:10 AM
#3
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,136
Likes: 564
From: Florence, Alabama
"can now read fuel injector duty cycle"
as you may know the late model rotary ECU does set forth primary and secondary injector reads separately and then combines them to disclose "injector duty cycle." the problem has been that this is disclosed as a number not a voltage so we have been unable to key off the total of the primary and secondary duty cycle. does your new unit derive total injector duty? i consider using this number a necessity.
what can the unit generate upon detecting a fault?
finally, i have a general question for you regarding "failsafes."
if a pump fails or a fuse blows, as an example, an electrical trigger is generated...
it is my suspicion that if the trigger is hooked to a wastegate, pop-off valve... something mechanical, that by the time the WG opens or the pop-off valve actuates there will have been a number of compression cycles and the engine may be compromised. what is your experience as to consideration?
i run a J&S knock sensor ignition retarder. it will, because it is electrical, retard the ignition on the NEXT powerstroke should it trigger. i do not mean to suggest it is the ultimate safeguard but do wonder about the "realworld" perfomance of all of these mechanical safeguards.
the ultimate safeguard, IMO, is system integrity.
regards,
howard coleman
as you may know the late model rotary ECU does set forth primary and secondary injector reads separately and then combines them to disclose "injector duty cycle." the problem has been that this is disclosed as a number not a voltage so we have been unable to key off the total of the primary and secondary duty cycle. does your new unit derive total injector duty? i consider using this number a necessity.
what can the unit generate upon detecting a fault?
finally, i have a general question for you regarding "failsafes."
if a pump fails or a fuse blows, as an example, an electrical trigger is generated...
it is my suspicion that if the trigger is hooked to a wastegate, pop-off valve... something mechanical, that by the time the WG opens or the pop-off valve actuates there will have been a number of compression cycles and the engine may be compromised. what is your experience as to consideration?
i run a J&S knock sensor ignition retarder. it will, because it is electrical, retard the ignition on the NEXT powerstroke should it trigger. i do not mean to suggest it is the ultimate safeguard but do wonder about the "realworld" perfomance of all of these mechanical safeguards.
the ultimate safeguard, IMO, is system integrity.
regards,
howard coleman
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 12-06-06 at 08:05 PM. Reason: spelling
12-06-06 | 08:19 AM
#4
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,136
Likes: 564
From: Florence, Alabama
i assume if you are going track IDC you will need a solenoid w pressure behind it and you will have to run the solenoid much like a fuel injector. a regular pump direction as we have w "progressive" controllers wouldn't be capable of making the jogs in the fuel map in a timely manner.
howard coleman
howard coleman
12-06-06 | 06:05 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
Howard Coleman wrote (in black):
"can now read fuel injector duty cycle"
as you may know the late model rotary ECU does set forth primary and secondary injector reads separately and then combines them to disclose "injector duty cycle." the problem has been that this is disclosed as a number not a voltage so we have been unable to key off the total of the primary and secondary duty cycle. does your new unit derive total injector duty? i consider using this number a necessity.
We plan to read both set of injector, multiplied by the injector sizes and add them to give a final "true flow" data for the WI system to work on.
what can the unit generate upon detecting a fault?
I am thinking of reducing boost? a simple relay output to drop boost back down to wastegate setting.
finally, i have a general question for you regarding "failsafes."
if a pump fails or a fuse blows, as an example, an electrical trigger is generated...
it is my suspicion that if the trigger is hooked to a wastegate, pop-off valve... something mechanical, that by the time the WG opens or the pop-off valve actuates there will have been a number of compression cycles and the engine may be compromised. what is your experience as to consideration?
What about cutting fuel or ignition. Most of our system comes with an accumulator, even when the pump fails, there will still be some water flowing. For the nervous one, they can have a higher capacity accumulator that can last a few tens of seconds.
i run a J&S knock sensor ignition retarder. it will, because it is electrical, retard the ignition on the NEXT powerstroke should it trigger. i do not mean to suggest it is the ultimate safeguard but do wonder about the "realworld" perfomance of all of these mechanical safeguards.
A knock sensor is only as good as the signal processor that distinguishes between engine noise at high RPM and knock. I know the J&S system well, have worked on them many years ago. One particular user has turned up the input sensitivity too high, the engine kept running at over-retarded timing causing very high combustion temperature, resulting in more knock being produced. It is a great device if used wisely.
The most ideal knock system is the multi-knock sensor type, able to cancel out some engine noise. Some expensive car manufacturer uses dedicated DSP (Digital Signal processor) chip to isolate knock, it is will only good for that particular engine. They use wideband knock sensors. An universal knock sensor requires some compromised error between true knock and noise. I suggest that you should also add EGT sensor and wideband to be sure. Those are the indirect readings.
As a WAI manufacturer, we can only go so far on a water flow related failsafe mechanism that we are familiar with. We are no expert on engine management.
the ultimate safeguard, IMO, is system integrity.
Yes, yes and yes.
This is a very interest discussion. I really more input like this. Please chime in more often if you can spare the time.
regards,
Richard
"can now read fuel injector duty cycle"
as you may know the late model rotary ECU does set forth primary and secondary injector reads separately and then combines them to disclose "injector duty cycle." the problem has been that this is disclosed as a number not a voltage so we have been unable to key off the total of the primary and secondary duty cycle. does your new unit derive total injector duty? i consider using this number a necessity.
We plan to read both set of injector, multiplied by the injector sizes and add them to give a final "true flow" data for the WI system to work on.
what can the unit generate upon detecting a fault?
I am thinking of reducing boost? a simple relay output to drop boost back down to wastegate setting.
finally, i have a general question for you regarding "failsafes."
if a pump fails or a fuse blows, as an example, an electrical trigger is generated...
it is my suspicion that if the trigger is hooked to a wastegate, pop-off valve... something mechanical, that by the time the WG opens or the pop-off valve actuates there will have been a number of compression cycles and the engine may be compromised. what is your experience as to consideration?
What about cutting fuel or ignition. Most of our system comes with an accumulator, even when the pump fails, there will still be some water flowing. For the nervous one, they can have a higher capacity accumulator that can last a few tens of seconds.
i run a J&S knock sensor ignition retarder. it will, because it is electrical, retard the ignition on the NEXT powerstroke should it trigger. i do not mean to suggest it is the ultimate safeguard but do wonder about the "realworld" perfomance of all of these mechanical safeguards.
A knock sensor is only as good as the signal processor that distinguishes between engine noise at high RPM and knock. I know the J&S system well, have worked on them many years ago. One particular user has turned up the input sensitivity too high, the engine kept running at over-retarded timing causing very high combustion temperature, resulting in more knock being produced. It is a great device if used wisely.
The most ideal knock system is the multi-knock sensor type, able to cancel out some engine noise. Some expensive car manufacturer uses dedicated DSP (Digital Signal processor) chip to isolate knock, it is will only good for that particular engine. They use wideband knock sensors. An universal knock sensor requires some compromised error between true knock and noise. I suggest that you should also add EGT sensor and wideband to be sure. Those are the indirect readings.
As a WAI manufacturer, we can only go so far on a water flow related failsafe mechanism that we are familiar with. We are no expert on engine management.
the ultimate safeguard, IMO, is system integrity.
Yes, yes and yes.
This is a very interest discussion. I really more input like this. Please chime in more often if you can spare the time.
regards,
Richard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 12-06-06 at 08:04 PM.
12-06-06 | 08:27 PM
#7
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,136
Likes: 564
From: Florence, Alabama
for Richard....
i assume if you are going track IDC you will need a solenoid w pressure behind it and you will have to run the solenoid much like a fuel injector. a regular pump direction as we have w "progressive" controllers wouldn't be capable of making the jogs in the fuel map in a timely manner.
any comment?
BTW i looked v carefully at your product that keyed off of one (either the primary or secondary injectior circuit) of the injector series and concluded it really needed to key off a combo of both. the other problem i forsaw was running 1000 cc of alcohol didn't fit w your product at that time. i expect that w the adoption of the SF pump and IDC 100% alcohol capable oriented delivery that AQ will better fit the alcohol oriented rotary tuner.
IDC AI is a great idea as our fuel needs drop after peak torque around 20% or so yet if we run the same boost our progressive controllers are shipping the max amount of methanol. the non IDC AI only solution would be to take more base fuel out of the map. i haven't quite gotten there yet and the wisconsin winter has arrived. i will be back on the dyno and track in march. til then it is double disc clutch, and a conversion to manual brakes etc.
the other area where the MAP commanded progressive controller is less than perfect is the fact it does not distinguish rpm..... only boost. you use a different amount of pump and AI at 3000 than 5000 of course.
all the above tuning clumsy-ness would vanish w IDC AI.
that all said i am flabbergasted at how well my motor tunes and the power that it makes w my Alkycontrol progressive system... all in my rookie year.
howard coleman
i assume if you are going track IDC you will need a solenoid w pressure behind it and you will have to run the solenoid much like a fuel injector. a regular pump direction as we have w "progressive" controllers wouldn't be capable of making the jogs in the fuel map in a timely manner.
any comment?
BTW i looked v carefully at your product that keyed off of one (either the primary or secondary injectior circuit) of the injector series and concluded it really needed to key off a combo of both. the other problem i forsaw was running 1000 cc of alcohol didn't fit w your product at that time. i expect that w the adoption of the SF pump and IDC 100% alcohol capable oriented delivery that AQ will better fit the alcohol oriented rotary tuner.
IDC AI is a great idea as our fuel needs drop after peak torque around 20% or so yet if we run the same boost our progressive controllers are shipping the max amount of methanol. the non IDC AI only solution would be to take more base fuel out of the map. i haven't quite gotten there yet and the wisconsin winter has arrived. i will be back on the dyno and track in march. til then it is double disc clutch, and a conversion to manual brakes etc.
the other area where the MAP commanded progressive controller is less than perfect is the fact it does not distinguish rpm..... only boost. you use a different amount of pump and AI at 3000 than 5000 of course.
all the above tuning clumsy-ness would vanish w IDC AI.
that all said i am flabbergasted at how well my motor tunes and the power that it makes w my Alkycontrol progressive system... all in my rookie year.
howard coleman
Trending Topics
12-07-06 | 03:54 PM
#8
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
Originally Posted by Karack
looks like a monitor more than a failsafe, failsafe is generally a series of components or circuits designed to correct for issues within the system.
- Increase boost if correct flow is detected (need a simple solenoid valve)
- Drop boost (in the event of no flow)
- Switch map (if availble)
- Map clamp output (if availale)
- Activate a push pump and assist priming of the main pump if water tank is in the trunk.
- Detect water level in tank, will do the above when that happen (WLS included).
- Dash biutton can be used as a hi/lo boost switch.
If you want to know how it can achieve the above task, please don't hesitate to post again. I am more than happy to tell you more.
...
12-07-06 | 04:32 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
Howard coleman wrote: for Richard....
i assume if you are going track IDC you will need a solenoid w pressure behind it and you will have to run the solenoid much like a fuel injector. a regular pump direction as we have w "progressive" controllers wouldn't be capable of making the jogs in the fuel map in a timely manner.
any comment?
The system I am proposing does use an inline solenoid valve, capable of cycling up to 250Hz. We call it HSV (High speed valve). The body is stainless and valve in EPDM (100% safe with methanol).
You are correct, to track IDC, the system has to have a fast response time, PWM pump speed system will not be able to cope with the transient response imposed by a fuel injector. The pump motor has high inertia, it cannot speed up or slow down fast enough to track the IDC.
We are planning to use a 150W Shurflo pump with three 125 psi internal by-pass valves to maintain a contant pressure behind the HSV. A small accumulator to help any transient flow deficiency if long delivery inlet hose is used.
I am getting some help from one of the member here, Scott (he is from England ). Work will start this weekend. I will be working on the summing circuitry for the two injector circuitry (primary and secondary).
If it all works out, I would like to offer the system here. He is going to datalog the results an dmay post them up here if anyone is interested.
BTW i looked v carefully at your product that keyed off of one (either the primary or secondary injectior circuit) of the injector series and concluded it really needed to key off a combo of both. the other problem i forsaw was running 1000 cc of alcohol didn't fit w your product at that time. i expect that w the adoption of the SF pump and IDC 100% alcohol capable oriented delivery that AQ will better fit the alcohol oriented rotary tuner.
I will be working this this weekend. The shuflo pump we are planning to use can deliver more than two litres per min.
IDC AI is a great idea as our fuel needs drop after peak torque around 20% or so yet if we run the same boost our progressive controllers are shipping the max amount of methanol. the non IDC AI only solution would be to take more base fuel out of the map. i haven't quite gotten there yet and the wisconsin winter has arrived. i will be back on the dyno and track in march. til then it is double disc clutch, and a conversion to manual brakes etc.
Do you have a IDC log to post here?
the other area where the MAP commanded progressive controller is less than perfect is the fact it does not distinguish rpm..... only boost. you use a different amount of pump and AI at 3000 than 5000 of course.
all the above tuning clumsy-ness would vanish w IDC AI.
I hope to at least to achieve this with our new Shurflo based system.
that all said i am flabbergasted at how well my motor tunes and the power that it makes w my Alkycontrol progressive system... all in my rookie year.
You must have worked very hard to get the fuel right, must have taken you some time to do that? Do you get combined afr fluctuation with different gears and during gear change (pump runs on due to inertia)?
Richard
i assume if you are going track IDC you will need a solenoid w pressure behind it and you will have to run the solenoid much like a fuel injector. a regular pump direction as we have w "progressive" controllers wouldn't be capable of making the jogs in the fuel map in a timely manner.
any comment?
The system I am proposing does use an inline solenoid valve, capable of cycling up to 250Hz. We call it HSV (High speed valve). The body is stainless and valve in EPDM (100% safe with methanol).
You are correct, to track IDC, the system has to have a fast response time, PWM pump speed system will not be able to cope with the transient response imposed by a fuel injector. The pump motor has high inertia, it cannot speed up or slow down fast enough to track the IDC.
We are planning to use a 150W Shurflo pump with three 125 psi internal by-pass valves to maintain a contant pressure behind the HSV. A small accumulator to help any transient flow deficiency if long delivery inlet hose is used.
I am getting some help from one of the member here, Scott (he is from England ). Work will start this weekend. I will be working on the summing circuitry for the two injector circuitry (primary and secondary).
If it all works out, I would like to offer the system here. He is going to datalog the results an dmay post them up here if anyone is interested.
BTW i looked v carefully at your product that keyed off of one (either the primary or secondary injectior circuit) of the injector series and concluded it really needed to key off a combo of both. the other problem i forsaw was running 1000 cc of alcohol didn't fit w your product at that time. i expect that w the adoption of the SF pump and IDC 100% alcohol capable oriented delivery that AQ will better fit the alcohol oriented rotary tuner.
I will be working this this weekend. The shuflo pump we are planning to use can deliver more than two litres per min.
IDC AI is a great idea as our fuel needs drop after peak torque around 20% or so yet if we run the same boost our progressive controllers are shipping the max amount of methanol. the non IDC AI only solution would be to take more base fuel out of the map. i haven't quite gotten there yet and the wisconsin winter has arrived. i will be back on the dyno and track in march. til then it is double disc clutch, and a conversion to manual brakes etc.
Do you have a IDC log to post here?
the other area where the MAP commanded progressive controller is less than perfect is the fact it does not distinguish rpm..... only boost. you use a different amount of pump and AI at 3000 than 5000 of course.
all the above tuning clumsy-ness would vanish w IDC AI.
I hope to at least to achieve this with our new Shurflo based system.
that all said i am flabbergasted at how well my motor tunes and the power that it makes w my Alkycontrol progressive system... all in my rookie year.
You must have worked very hard to get the fuel right, must have taken you some time to do that? Do you get combined afr fluctuation with different gears and during gear change (pump runs on due to inertia)?
Richard
12-07-06 | 05:26 PM
#10
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,136
Likes: 564
From: Florence, Alabama
Richard,
the only items lacking last Jan were the ability to read IDC, pump capability and 100% meth capability. your HSV always looked like a winner.
here is my last run as taken from my Power FC Datalogit... each datapoint is 400 rpm.. as you can see i am still a bit rich and my timing is conservative. i run a twin Garrett T04 turbosystem that makes 84 pounds per minute between 17 and 23 psi. the only difference being efficiency. my car when tuned out will make a minimum of 630 rwhp and is making above 500 currently in it's crude state of tune. i monitor both rotors pre turbo egts digitally. fuel pressure digitally, for that matter, exhaust back pressure digitally. all logged of course.
here's a 3rd gear run..
17.3-----------17.6-----------17.5-----------18.0---------18.0-------18.48 ------ boost
10.6-----------11.1-----------10.9-----------10.4---------10.3---------9.8----- AFR
16-------------21-------------17------------8-------------3--------------2-----PowerFC Knock
1125--------1117------------1179-------1190----------1201-------1234---Pre turbo EGT f
51-------------60--------------65----------71-------------81-----------86 Inj Duty850/1600
57------------59-------------56----------56-------------58-----------58------—Fuel Pressure
15-----------------------------------------------------------------Lead Ignition w 11degrees of split
4.2---------4.57---------------------------------------------------------------------------------TPS
57--------------------------------------------------------------- degrees F pre meth air temp
a thread re my tuning: https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/80%25-pump-20%25-methanol-576000/
pictures of install: https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/pictures-my-alkycontrol-ai-system-install-593216/
install remarks: https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/optimized-ai-alcohol-system-component-location-fd-586925/
i wish you and Scott good luck in your efforts.
howard coleman
the only items lacking last Jan were the ability to read IDC, pump capability and 100% meth capability. your HSV always looked like a winner.
here is my last run as taken from my Power FC Datalogit... each datapoint is 400 rpm.. as you can see i am still a bit rich and my timing is conservative. i run a twin Garrett T04 turbosystem that makes 84 pounds per minute between 17 and 23 psi. the only difference being efficiency. my car when tuned out will make a minimum of 630 rwhp and is making above 500 currently in it's crude state of tune. i monitor both rotors pre turbo egts digitally. fuel pressure digitally, for that matter, exhaust back pressure digitally. all logged of course.
here's a 3rd gear run..
17.3-----------17.6-----------17.5-----------18.0---------18.0-------18.48 ------ boost
10.6-----------11.1-----------10.9-----------10.4---------10.3---------9.8----- AFR
16-------------21-------------17------------8-------------3--------------2-----PowerFC Knock
1125--------1117------------1179-------1190----------1201-------1234---Pre turbo EGT f
51-------------60--------------65----------71-------------81-----------86 Inj Duty850/1600
57------------59-------------56----------56-------------58-----------58------—Fuel Pressure
15-----------------------------------------------------------------Lead Ignition w 11degrees of split
4.2---------4.57---------------------------------------------------------------------------------TPS
57--------------------------------------------------------------- degrees F pre meth air temp
a thread re my tuning: https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/80%25-pump-20%25-methanol-576000/
pictures of install: https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/pictures-my-alkycontrol-ai-system-install-593216/
install remarks: https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/optimized-ai-alcohol-system-component-location-fd-586925/
i wish you and Scott good luck in your efforts.
howard coleman
12-07-06 | 05:57 PM
#11
development
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Lafayette, LA
Originally Posted by howard coleman
it is my suspicion that if the trigger is hooked to a wastegate, pop-off valve... something mechanical, that by the time the WG opens or the pop-off valve actuates there will have been a number of compression cycles and the engine may be compromised. what is your experience as to consideration?
not to travel off topic from this product, but you never responded to my answer to a similar question in another thread. If a trigger can be sent at 75% flow...and I tune for that flow at 100% boost. Then run 100% flow at 100% boost (at the expensive of a safety blanket which costs hp), do you feel tripping at 75% flow at this time would give enough warning to the wastegate to infact fail safely?
12-07-06 | 08:56 PM
#12
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,136
Likes: 564
From: Florence, Alabama
the reason i didn't answer is found in your quote from my post to richard.
i was asking that exact question... the reason being i have no answer nor have i ever read anything by anyone on point. i read pages and pages of failsafes but nowhere do i read that they will actually work on a rotary which is essentially a two cycle motor which means you will have to be very fast if you want to defuse a bad situation.
it is my opinion that the only real save on a malfunction will have to be electrical such as ignition cut, possibly retard. i doubt you can open a wastegate before a number of compression strokes occur.
howard coleman
i was asking that exact question... the reason being i have no answer nor have i ever read anything by anyone on point. i read pages and pages of failsafes but nowhere do i read that they will actually work on a rotary which is essentially a two cycle motor which means you will have to be very fast if you want to defuse a bad situation.
it is my opinion that the only real save on a malfunction will have to be electrical such as ignition cut, possibly retard. i doubt you can open a wastegate before a number of compression strokes occur.
howard coleman
12-10-06 | 03:48 PM
#13
Cant be bothered anymore
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
From: Norwich UK
I belive the dds3 to work very very well.
If has already saved my motor on 3 seperate occasions. It is a usefull tool before going on the track ( ie you can purge your system to see if it is flowing correctly )
I cant see why the waste gate / pop off valve will not work. When it detects and underflow or fault situation it will know this before you do and react.
I have posted videos of the dds3 up on here before and raised the issues of controllers
Richard Any logs you need let me know.
Scott
If has already saved my motor on 3 seperate occasions. It is a usefull tool before going on the track ( ie you can purge your system to see if it is flowing correctly )
I cant see why the waste gate / pop off valve will not work. When it detects and underflow or fault situation it will know this before you do and react.
I have posted videos of the dds3 up on here before and raised the issues of controllers
Richard Any logs you need let me know.
Scott
12-10-06 | 04:44 PM
#14
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
I think I have nearly finished building the IDC summing module for you to do some logs.
Input Channel 1: 550cc to 1400cc/min (18 position selector)
Input Channel 2: 850cc to 1700cc/min (18 position selector)
Input Channel 1: 550cc to 1400cc/min (18 position selector)
Input Channel 2: 850cc to 1700cc/min (18 position selector)
12-10-06 | 07:57 PM
#16
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,136
Likes: 564
From: Florence, Alabama
that's exciting news re your summing IDCs.
scott,
it sounds like you and Richard are close to turning the AI world upside down. BTW, you said your dds3 saved you on three occasions... could you give us some detail?
thanks,
howard
scott,
it sounds like you and Richard are close to turning the AI world upside down. BTW, you said your dds3 saved you on three occasions... could you give us some detail?
thanks,
howard
12-11-06 | 02:49 AM
#17
Cant be bothered anymore
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
From: Norwich UK
:-)
Sure
1. When i first installed the dds i noticed the flow rate dropping off. It would go from say 6 bars down to 4 bars so i was aware that something was going on. The next time i drove the car in anger i boosting up to 1.2 bar. as i reached 10 psi i noticed the pump had bot primed / bounced off its pressure switch ( it lights up all segs when it does this ). I stoped and pulled the jet and found it to be completey blocked.
2. On the way to the strip i was late leaving my house and forgot to fill my tank up. I got a low level light
3. The same weekend the fuel WI filter broke down on the drag strip. I noticed the same thing as in No1. I ran a 13.3 and saved the engine. Next run was a 12.0 @ 117mph at 14.7 psi on road tires and stock port stock twin.
I was about to configure the boost retard when richard hatched this plan !
Scott
Sure
1. When i first installed the dds i noticed the flow rate dropping off. It would go from say 6 bars down to 4 bars so i was aware that something was going on. The next time i drove the car in anger i boosting up to 1.2 bar. as i reached 10 psi i noticed the pump had bot primed / bounced off its pressure switch ( it lights up all segs when it does this ). I stoped and pulled the jet and found it to be completey blocked.
2. On the way to the strip i was late leaving my house and forgot to fill my tank up. I got a low level light
3. The same weekend the fuel WI filter broke down on the drag strip. I noticed the same thing as in No1. I ran a 13.3 and saved the engine. Next run was a 12.0 @ 117mph at 14.7 psi on road tires and stock port stock twin.
I was about to configure the boost retard when richard hatched this plan !
Scott
12-15-06 | 11:44 AM
#18
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
From: Kerry
Richard, I too am very interested in your progress with summing the IDC's for our primaries / secondaries. Please update us on this.
I have a couple of questions I hope you can respond to..
I seen you mention that the FIA2 amplifier required modification to adequately pick up the IDC signal from the setup in our FD's - is this also the case with the DDS3v8?
It looks like you would have a fairly failsafe system coupled with the DDSv8 - as follows...
- 150W Shurflo pump with three 125 psi internal by-pass valves to maintain a contant pressure behind the HSV.
- A nozzle
- Inline filter/fitting hose/relay
- 1-bar check valve / solenoid valve
- HSV / Accumulator
Can you confirm that a setup like this can be used to map against / mirror (to ratio) water injection amount exactly to fuel ratio at any given IDC?
Is there some sort of aux out, like 0-5V, or some means to log water injection amount / hsv duty? This would be great.
I have a couple of questions I hope you can respond to..
I seen you mention that the FIA2 amplifier required modification to adequately pick up the IDC signal from the setup in our FD's - is this also the case with the DDS3v8?
It looks like you would have a fairly failsafe system coupled with the DDSv8 - as follows...
- 150W Shurflo pump with three 125 psi internal by-pass valves to maintain a contant pressure behind the HSV.
- A nozzle
- Inline filter/fitting hose/relay
- 1-bar check valve / solenoid valve
- HSV / Accumulator
Can you confirm that a setup like this can be used to map against / mirror (to ratio) water injection amount exactly to fuel ratio at any given IDC?
Is there some sort of aux out, like 0-5V, or some means to log water injection amount / hsv duty? This would be great.
12-15-06 | 03:44 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
Originally Posted by howard coleman
that's exciting news re your summing IDCs.
scott,
it sounds like you and Richard are close to turning the AI world upside down. BTW, you said your dds3 saved you on three occasions... could you give us some detail?
thanks,
howard
scott,
it sounds like you and Richard are close to turning the AI world upside down. BTW, you said your dds3 saved you on three occasions... could you give us some detail?
thanks,
howard
I really enjoy what I am doing, my work seemed to be a an over-endulged hobby. I will be finalizing the little box this weekend, didn't have much time this working week to play. It will be Scott's turn to experiment next week.
12-15-06 | 04:03 PM
#20
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
Originally Posted by ky7
Richard, I too am very interested in your progress with summing the IDC's for our primaries / secondaries. Please update us on this.
Originally Posted by ky7
I have a couple of questions I hope you can respond to..
I seen you mention that the FIA2 amplifier required modification to adequately pick up the IDC signal from the setup in our FD's - is this also the case with the DDS3v8?
It looks like you would have a fairly failsafe system coupled with the DDSv8 - as follows...
- 150W Shurflo pump with three 125 psi internal by-pass valves to maintain a contant pressure behind the HSV.
- A nozzle
- Inline filter/fitting hose/relay
- 1-bar check valve / solenoid valve
- HSV / Accumulator
I seen you mention that the FIA2 amplifier required modification to adequately pick up the IDC signal from the setup in our FD's - is this also the case with the DDS3v8?
It looks like you would have a fairly failsafe system coupled with the DDSv8 - as follows...
- 150W Shurflo pump with three 125 psi internal by-pass valves to maintain a contant pressure behind the HSV.
- A nozzle
- Inline filter/fitting hose/relay
- 1-bar check valve / solenoid valve
- HSV / Accumulator
Is there some sort of aux out, like 0-5V, or some means to log water injection amount / hsv duty? This would be great.[/QUOTE]The HSV mirrors the fuel duty cycle 1:1 , we have consider making it variable but there is a danger of WIDC maxes out before thr FIDC, starving the engine of water/methanol. In order to match the fuel and water flow linearily, HSV and nozzle size is very important otherwise non-linerrity will creep in. I do help the purchaser to achieve that.
There are a few other minor factors to be made aware of but only unique to a particular set up. I am sure Scott with his logging device can highly those areas for his car.
The Shurflo/DDS3v8 is as good as it gets for the time being but future improvements can be added at a minor cost once the basic hardware is obtained.
There are presently two outputs from the DDS3 and FIA2 system: Water flow and FIDC % , both are 0-5V signals.
Richard
PS: the 1-bar checkvalve and standard solenoid valve only applies to the singlel stage system. We have two systems available for the time being, the other is IDC tracking with HSV equipped with the FIA2. Your above list contains parts from both systems.
12-18-06 | 02:47 PM
#22
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
sdminus,
I have sent the FIDC summer today to you. Set for 550 and 850.
Channal 1: adjstable between 550 to 1400cc/min
Channel 2: adjustable between 850-1700cc/min
In 50cc increments.
Richard
I have sent the FIDC summer today to you. Set for 550 and 850.
Channal 1: adjstable between 550 to 1400cc/min
Channel 2: adjustable between 850-1700cc/min
In 50cc increments.
Richard
12-24-06 | 02:55 PM
#24
Rotary Freak
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,715
Likes: 0
From: trinidad and tobago
Richard , how does this version DDS compare to the previous ?, are there any upgrades available ?. As for the safety , I'm not sure how the HALTECH (or any other system ) would react to a sudden increase in the coolant temperature , but I use Autronic and a lot of the parameters of the system is coolant temp dependant (along with 1 or 2 other parameters ) . Under their (autronis's) direction I modified the coolant temperature sensor circuit by adding a 4 pin relay and 10ohm (?) resistor to the sensor wires , when everything is normal , the relay is energized an the resistor bypassed , when there is a fault in my WI system , the DDS3 detects this and de-energizes the relay ,causing the resistor to be in line , this switches the temperature from normal to 120degC , I have my calibration tables set up to drop boost to 10 psi (WG pressure) , retard the timing and dump fuel , this all happens IMMEDIATELY and it all works well together . I am rudely and frequently reminded that my reservoir's level is low or that the DDS's push button is off.
12-26-06 | 05:26 AM
#25
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
From: uk
The new DDS3 received a face lift, matt silver curved bezel compared to a square, polished bezel. The Junction Box is modified extensively, adding more function and option for the users. Price remains the same.
If you need upgrading, you need to get the new junction box circuit board, that is all. I don't think you need it in your case. With the exception of the dash on/off disable the failsafe, there is no difference.
Did you remember we have to use an external relay to accomplish your task sometimes ago. The new DDS3-v8 does this by default. You simply control the boost by the DDS3 switch or the boost automatically drops to wastegate setting in absence of flow.
The failsafe trigger input of the new DDS3 can now read MAP sensor and fuel duty cycle. user can adjust the triggering point.
Your coolant based "failsafe" is excellent, very ingenious. I think you should publish it so everyone here can see it.
If you need upgrading, you need to get the new junction box circuit board, that is all. I don't think you need it in your case. With the exception of the dash on/off disable the failsafe, there is no difference.
Did you remember we have to use an external relay to accomplish your task sometimes ago. The new DDS3-v8 does this by default. You simply control the boost by the DDS3 switch or the boost automatically drops to wastegate setting in absence of flow.
The failsafe trigger input of the new DDS3 can now read MAP sensor and fuel duty cycle. user can adjust the triggering point.
Your coolant based "failsafe" is excellent, very ingenious. I think you should publish it so everyone here can see it.