AdaptronicAus

The other VE calculations I've seen on other ECUs compensate for MAP; so I assumed everyone just knew that's what VE was. I didn't express it in the software but it's in the reference section of the manual where it describes all the calculations; and I also put it in the VE video and also in the RX7 video where I explain the staged injection with VE giving a couple of examples.

But I'm always looking to make things more obvious for people so they don't HAVE to go looking for it; do you have any suggestions for where I could put it in the software so it's obvious but not intrusive?

If I had my way every car would be tuned with TPS / MAP combined tuning, but I'm not the one paying for the dyno time!

Thanks for the suggestions

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

I would want to know that the fuel map has a 1:1 scaler in it. Most other ECUs have the ability to have the scale or not as well as having the ability to modify the scale in certain points.

I don't think the customers or the tuners are disagreeing. I just think they dont know that it is available or how much better it works.

EB Turbo

AdaptronicAus

Well, now you know that it does have a 1:1 scalar in the map, but as I said, the other VE systems I've seen have this as a default, so where would you like to see it in the software to make it more obvious?

I also said that we have the ability not to scale by MAP (ie, just tune it in milliseconds) and modifying the scale at different RPM/MAP points is just tuning your MAP based fuel map - and as I said you can do that and use it to scale a map tuned in TPS.

As I said I'm always up for making the software more obvious to people, so I'd like your input as to how that could be made more obvious.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

Which systems have it as a default? I dont think I will ever tune an adaptronic so I am not too concerned. I am pretty happy with what I have now.

EB Turbo

AdaptronicAus

Well Autronic were the first ones to implement VE tuning in aftermarket land as far as I know; and that's how they did it.

We implemented VE back in about 2010 and we did it that way as well.

Motec don't do VE yet (at least on the M84 / Mx00 series) in terms of setting engine capacity and injector size; they have a "max injector pulse width" amount which they call IJPU, and you map the fuel map as a percentage of that. The start map that you get when you download the software has a 2D compensation for MAP; and they show it as a "+ trim %" rather than as a multiplier, but the maths ends up the same. In their start map they have:

0 kPa = -100%
100 kPa = 0%
200 kPa = +100%
300 kPa = +200%

So even though they haven't done it so that you can enter the injector flow rate / engine capacity (yet) they understand that scaling the fuel based on MAP so it flattens out the fuel map is a sensible default thing to do.

I'm glad you're happy with what you have now

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

What do you consider VE tuning? Does your system make open loop fueling adjustments based on the O2 target table? How does it use the Engine capacity and injector sizing to calculate fuel? Or are you just considering that having the MAP correction built into the main fuel table is VE?

EB Turbo

AdaptronicAus

VE tuning is explained in the video that I linked above, and also in the RX7 specific video where it explains the way it works in a staged injection application giving examples. It's also described in the manual as I said before.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

You just explained how to select it in the first video. The second video explains how VE and the staged injection works. Which is not very good IMO. Does the end user have the ability stage the injectors how they please or they are limited to what you have determined based on your VE calculations?

EB Turbo

BLACK MAMBA

iTrader: (58)

Maybe you have a better explanation, would you mind sharing it with us.

Thanks.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

Lets compare adaptronic v. AEM staged injections. Adaptronic, runs primary injector until max limit then it brings in secondary injectors. That is it. AEM, has a 17x21 3d table for staged injection. You set a flow ratio based on primary inj v. Secondary injector size. You have a 3d table to set flow balance between the primary and secondary injectors. A 0 value means all primary, 100 value means all secondary. 50 means 50% of needed fueling will go to primary and 50% to secondary. You can run any combo of primary to secondary injectors. You can have 2pri and 2 sec. 2pri and 4sec, 4pri and 2sec, 4pri and 4 sec. You can stage any of the 12injector outputs any way you want. You can run the injectors in staged mode or you can run the "secondary injectors" as extra injectors. This will not phase out primary injectors and still add in secondary injectors. You can run two different fuel types in two different fuel systems and stage the injectors. You also have the ability to set a max duty value and when reached the ECU will automatically bring in the needed secondary injector to meet the fuel demand.

In the situation where you want to run 2 550cc injectors and 4 2225cc injectors to support an E85 setup with a lot of idle control. With the adaptronic you will get to the point where the primary ports will be flowing more fuel on a smaller port size than the secondaries. Which you can't even do in the select ECU because you only have 4 injector outputs. In the AEM you can phase out the primary injectors and switch to all secondary injector. This will still have more fuel % to the primary ports but it is significantly reduced from an adaptronic style of staged injection.

EB Turbo

BLACK MAMBA

iTrader: (58)

Thanks for the explanation.

How will VE Tunning compared with a Haltech Sport since that would had being my other choice besides Adaptronic?

Do you work for AEM? It sounds like your trying to marketing their ECU as being better.

sorry for all the questions, and thanks again.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

The staged injection does not have anything to do with VE tuning. Adaptronic has just built staged injection into their VE tuning mode. I do not work for AEM. I am not trying to market the AEM ECU as being better. I am now stating a fact that it is better. Please read this

The Haltechs staged injection works very similarly to the AEM except you do not have as much control over the function. There are two modes. Primary hold and common mode. Primary hold will hold the primary injectors at a determined pulse width and will then stage in the secondary injectors. Common mode will drop the primary pulse width, it will then stage in the secondary injectors and it will increase pulse width on both primary and secondary injectors. You have a couple of options to set where the stage event happens and depending on the mode you can set the max limit for primary hold mode.

The VE tuning is nice but when you package it with the rest of the features in the adaptronic it still does not stand out over the Haltech and AEM equivalents. The explanation of VE tuning by adaptronic is a bit complicated. There is no help file in the WARI software to read further on adaptronics implementation of VE tuning. in VE tuning mode there is a VE calculation that takes into account manifold pressure, target lambda, TPS, RPM, engine size and injector size. It does a calculation based off of the VE table and the target lambda table to determine the fuel calculation. If your VE table is perfect you should be able to make changes to your target lambda table and the VE calculation will automatically make the necessary fueling change. The one thing that limits this is the low resolution (5x4) lambda target table.

EB Turbo

AdaptronicAus

Yes, this is a limitation of our plug-in ECUs because they're designed for modified factory style applications (ie 4 injectors total).

I might be misunderstanding because I'm not an AEM expert, but I was trying to look up the AEM models to compare. It looks to me (and please correct me here) that the plug & play AEM for the RX7 is a series 1 - so it also has the 4 injector output limitation. That price point and the Haltech PS1000 are the ones that the Select ECUs are really intended to compete with.

If you want full configurability, then we offer the e1280s ECU, which has 12 injector outputs and you can program anything in it how you want. Ie you could program it to be a coffee maker if you wanted to. That gives you the flexibility to implement your own preferred injector staging strategy or any other custom control. I couldn't quite see the AEM equivalent offering; on the website they only seem to show the series 2 being a plug and play, with no RX7 model listed, which would suggest that we need to go to the Infinity series to get an equivalent product to the 1280. But most people don't need this level of flexibility which is why we sell a lot more of the Select ECUs than the 1280.

I'm sure there are other things that the Infinity does that the 1280 doesn't support but this is one reason I say it's really important to people to be clear about what they want and make the best choice for them.

I'm sorry if the VE explanation was complicated but sometimes the internal workings have to be complicated to make it easy to use.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

The AEM series I ECU had 10 injector outputs. injectors 6-10 were used for emissions functions. If you remove the emissions controls you can utilize all 10 injector outputs. The limitation of the Series I ECU was the available pin count in the 72pin OEM Mazda connector. The Base AEM ECU was more capable than the Mazda ECU header could support. By the way that ECU has been discontinued for almost 2 years.

The Series II ECU was never an approved AEM RX7 application. The Series II is capable to run rotary trialing timing, OMP control and Staged injection. The ECU was just never made into a PnP application from AEM. A Rotary Tuner shop has developed a PNP adapter kit to work in the FD RX7 application. The Base Series II ECU has almost identical features to your e1280s. 12injector outputs, 8 coil outputs, 8 0-5v inputs not including MAP, ECT, IAT, and 2 dedicated lambda inputs, 16 low side drivers, 2 knock inputs and 3 PWM outputs. The AEM Series II ECU with PnP for an FD RX-7 is only $100 more dollars than your Select PnP and $600 less than your e1280s. This was from the thread that was linked in my other post. Read this thread


This is true. I don't necessarily think people are making choices based on their needs more than they are making choices based on what is in front of them. I would think knowledgeable tuners would easily choose the AEM over the adaptronic. unless it was personal preference choice.

EB Turbo

AdaptronicAus

Can I ask for a link for the Series 2 Base model ECU? I could only find the plug and play models and they seem to start at about $1455. Also how much is the patch harness for the RX7?

Thanks
Andy

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

The prices listed on the AEM website are full retail. AEM allows a small discount. Street price on the Series II ECU is $1255.The FD PnP kit is sold by Tri-Point Engineering. Here is the Link.

EB Turbo

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

EB Turbo......don't you work for Tri-point Engineering?

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

I do. That really makes no difference to my statements. I have asked questions to Andy trying to figure out how certain things work in his ecu. If I feel that certain things could be better I address them. I have in no way promoted Tri-Point without someone requesting the information. I am not here to do that.

When people are making statements saying one product is better than the other I defend the truth with facts. So far no one has been able to prove me wrong.

From a professional tuner standpoint, understanding that these products are being sold to individuals. I see a lot of issues with specific features that will make your tuning process incorrect or flawed. Is it wrong for me to address them? This is the place that you are supposed to do that, correct?

EB Turbo

AdaptronicAus

I'm all for the discussion, that's how we improve things!

Whether any suggestions on how we could improve (or criticisms; I take them as the same ting) are commercially motivated or completely altruistic I don't think really matters, so long as the facts are correct and the arguments are actually relevant; at the end of the day we're trying to develop products to help people. That's my view anyway.

Thanks for the link EB; I'll check it out.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

Andy, I mean no harm to your or your company. If you find anything I say to be incorrect I will be more than happy to fix it.

EB Turbo

ballinnmiami240sx

iTrader: (2)

Does the ECU datalog with the MTX-l? HAvent messed with the car in about 3 weeks, but i would like to know if this ecu does this and i wont have to buy a datalogger to record my runs

AdaptronicAus

No, the MTXL does not datalog, and the ECU doesn't datalog.

The easiest way to log is by plugging in a laptop and logging with the software - usually at the drags they're happy so long as the laptop is strapped in. That's the way I've done it in my drag/street car. My road racing car has a proper standalone logger in it but I don't think you need that if you're logging drag runs (I assume that's what you mean by "runs"?)

Otherwise you can use the Zeitronix black box logger, but I'd say to use the laptop and the WARI software if you can because this logs more parameters.

Thanks!
Andy

ballinnmiami240sx

iTrader: (2)

Well its for drifting, so there is no way to strap down a lap top and look at it...lol

ballinnmiami240sx

iTrader: (2)

what about using the PL1 pocket logger?
PL-1: Pocket Logger, Innovate MTS Datalogger

Im new to tuning and as I read it makes it confusing as to how I should go about tuning my car properly. As of now I plan to take it to a well know rotary tuner but my concern is I would like to log runs and monitor "record" my runs and adjust if i need to

Danny

AdaptronicAus

Yes I understand!

If you can strap the laptop in the car then you can leave that to log while you do your run. That's normally what I do with street cars.

The PL1 will log data in from the serial chain, so you can log AFR that way. However that's not very useful because you can't see revs, boost etc at the same time, so it doesn't tell you much for tuning purposes. I did look into outputting the data format for the Innovate PL1 so we could use it on that and the OT2 (so you can watch / log it on your iPhone) but the two seemed to have different protocols, and even using the Innovate hardware modules connected it doesn't all automatically configure and display. Hence why I suggested either the Zeitronix logger, or using a laptop strapped into the car, or a proper standalone logger like a Race Technology or Racepak.

Thanks!