Adaptronic Adaptronic Fd3s plug in select Innovate MTX-L set up
#26
But I'm always looking to make things more obvious for people so they don't HAVE to go looking for it; do you have any suggestions for where I could put it in the software so it's obvious but not intrusive?
If I had my way every car would be tuned with TPS / MAP combined tuning, but I'm not the one paying for the dyno time!
Thanks for the suggestions
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The other VE calculations I've seen on other ECUs compensate for MAP; so I assumed everyone just knew that's what VE was. I didn't express it in the software but it's in the reference section of the manual where it describes all the calculations; and I also put it in the VE video and also in the RX7 video where I explain the staged injection with VE giving a couple of examples.
If I had my way every car would be tuned with TPS / MAP combined tuning, but I'm not the one paying for the dyno time!
Thanks for the suggestions
Thanks for the suggestions
EB Turbo
#28
Well, now you know that it does have a 1:1 scalar in the map, but as I said, the other VE systems I've seen have this as a default, so where would you like to see it in the software to make it more obvious?
I also said that we have the ability not to scale by MAP (ie, just tune it in milliseconds) and modifying the scale at different RPM/MAP points is just tuning your MAP based fuel map - and as I said you can do that and use it to scale a map tuned in TPS.
As I said I'm always up for making the software more obvious to people, so I'd like your input as to how that could be made more obvious.
I also said that we have the ability not to scale by MAP (ie, just tune it in milliseconds) and modifying the scale at different RPM/MAP points is just tuning your MAP based fuel map - and as I said you can do that and use it to scale a map tuned in TPS.
As I said I'm always up for making the software more obvious to people, so I'd like your input as to how that could be made more obvious.
Last edited by AdaptronicAus; 04-26-13 at 01:13 AM.
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Well, now you know that it does have a 1:1 scalar in the map, but as I said, the other VE systems I've seen have this as a default, so where would you like to see it in the software to make it more obvious?
I also said that we have the ability not to scale by MAP (ie, just tune it in milliseconds) and modifying the scale at different RPM/MAP points is just tuning your MAP based fuel map - and as I said you can do that and use it to scale a map tuned in TPS.
As I said I'm always up for making the software more obvious to people, so I'd like your input as to how that could be made more obvious.
I also said that we have the ability not to scale by MAP (ie, just tune it in milliseconds) and modifying the scale at different RPM/MAP points is just tuning your MAP based fuel map - and as I said you can do that and use it to scale a map tuned in TPS.
As I said I'm always up for making the software more obvious to people, so I'd like your input as to how that could be made more obvious.
EB Turbo
#30
Well Autronic were the first ones to implement VE tuning in aftermarket land as far as I know; and that's how they did it.
We implemented VE back in about 2010 and we did it that way as well.
Motec don't do VE yet (at least on the M84 / Mx00 series) in terms of setting engine capacity and injector size; they have a "max injector pulse width" amount which they call IJPU, and you map the fuel map as a percentage of that. The start map that you get when you download the software has a 2D compensation for MAP; and they show it as a "+ trim %" rather than as a multiplier, but the maths ends up the same. In their start map they have:
0 kPa = -100%
100 kPa = 0%
200 kPa = +100%
300 kPa = +200%
So even though they haven't done it so that you can enter the injector flow rate / engine capacity (yet) they understand that scaling the fuel based on MAP so it flattens out the fuel map is a sensible default thing to do.
I'm glad you're happy with what you have now
We implemented VE back in about 2010 and we did it that way as well.
Motec don't do VE yet (at least on the M84 / Mx00 series) in terms of setting engine capacity and injector size; they have a "max injector pulse width" amount which they call IJPU, and you map the fuel map as a percentage of that. The start map that you get when you download the software has a 2D compensation for MAP; and they show it as a "+ trim %" rather than as a multiplier, but the maths ends up the same. In their start map they have:
0 kPa = -100%
100 kPa = 0%
200 kPa = +100%
300 kPa = +200%
So even though they haven't done it so that you can enter the injector flow rate / engine capacity (yet) they understand that scaling the fuel based on MAP so it flattens out the fuel map is a sensible default thing to do.
I'm glad you're happy with what you have now
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Well Autronic were the first ones to implement VE tuning in aftermarket land as far as I know; and that's how they did it.
We implemented VE back in about 2010 and we did it that way as well.
Motec don't do VE yet (at least on the M84 / Mx00 series) in terms of setting engine capacity and injector size; they have a "max injector pulse width" amount which they call IJPU, and you map the fuel map as a percentage of that. The start map that you get when you download the software has a 2D compensation for MAP; and they show it as a "+ trim %" rather than as a multiplier, but the maths ends up the same. In their start map they have:
0 kPa = -100%
100 kPa = 0%
200 kPa = +100%
300 kPa = +200%
So even though they haven't done it so that you can enter the injector flow rate / engine capacity (yet) they understand that scaling the fuel based on MAP so it flattens out the fuel map is a sensible default thing to do.
I'm glad you're happy with what you have now
We implemented VE back in about 2010 and we did it that way as well.
Motec don't do VE yet (at least on the M84 / Mx00 series) in terms of setting engine capacity and injector size; they have a "max injector pulse width" amount which they call IJPU, and you map the fuel map as a percentage of that. The start map that you get when you download the software has a 2D compensation for MAP; and they show it as a "+ trim %" rather than as a multiplier, but the maths ends up the same. In their start map they have:
0 kPa = -100%
100 kPa = 0%
200 kPa = +100%
300 kPa = +200%
So even though they haven't done it so that you can enter the injector flow rate / engine capacity (yet) they understand that scaling the fuel based on MAP so it flattens out the fuel map is a sensible default thing to do.
I'm glad you're happy with what you have now
EB Turbo
#32
What do you consider VE tuning? Does your system make open loop fueling adjustments based on the O2 target table? How does it use the Engine capacity and injector sizing to calculate fuel? Or are you just considering that having the MAP correction built into the main fuel table is VE?
EB Turbo
EB Turbo
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In the situation where you want to run 2 550cc injectors and 4 2225cc injectors to support an E85 setup with a lot of idle control. With the adaptronic you will get to the point where the primary ports will be flowing more fuel on a smaller port size than the secondaries. Which you can't even do in the select ECU because you only have 4 injector outputs. In the AEM you can phase out the primary injectors and switch to all secondary injector. This will still have more fuel % to the primary ports but it is significantly reduced from an adaptronic style of staged injection.
EB Turbo
#36
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Thanks for the explanation.
How will VE Tunning compared with a Haltech Sport since that would had being my other choice besides Adaptronic?
Do you work for AEM? It sounds like your trying to marketing their ECU as being better.
sorry for all the questions, and thanks again.
How will VE Tunning compared with a Haltech Sport since that would had being my other choice besides Adaptronic?
Do you work for AEM? It sounds like your trying to marketing their ECU as being better.
sorry for all the questions, and thanks again.
Last edited by BLACK MAMBA; 04-30-13 at 05:59 AM.
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Thanks for the explanation.
How will VE Tunning compared with a Haltech Sport since that would had being my other choice besides Adaptronic?
Do you work for AEM? It sounds like your trying to marketing their ECU as being better.
sorry for all the questions, and thanks again.
How will VE Tunning compared with a Haltech Sport since that would had being my other choice besides Adaptronic?
Do you work for AEM? It sounds like your trying to marketing their ECU as being better.
sorry for all the questions, and thanks again.
The Haltechs staged injection works very similarly to the AEM except you do not have as much control over the function. There are two modes. Primary hold and common mode. Primary hold will hold the primary injectors at a determined pulse width and will then stage in the secondary injectors. Common mode will drop the primary pulse width, it will then stage in the secondary injectors and it will increase pulse width on both primary and secondary injectors. You have a couple of options to set where the stage event happens and depending on the mode you can set the max limit for primary hold mode.
The VE tuning is nice but when you package it with the rest of the features in the adaptronic it still does not stand out over the Haltech and AEM equivalents. The explanation of VE tuning by adaptronic is a bit complicated. There is no help file in the WARI software to read further on adaptronics implementation of VE tuning. in VE tuning mode there is a VE calculation that takes into account manifold pressure, target lambda, TPS, RPM, engine size and injector size. It does a calculation based off of the VE table and the target lambda table to determine the fuel calculation. If your VE table is perfect you should be able to make changes to your target lambda table and the VE calculation will automatically make the necessary fueling change. The one thing that limits this is the low resolution (5x4) lambda target table.
EB Turbo
#38
Yes, this is a limitation of our plug-in ECUs because they're designed for modified factory style applications (ie 4 injectors total).
I might be misunderstanding because I'm not an AEM expert, but I was trying to look up the AEM models to compare. It looks to me (and please correct me here) that the plug & play AEM for the RX7 is a series 1 - so it also has the 4 injector output limitation. That price point and the Haltech PS1000 are the ones that the Select ECUs are really intended to compete with.
If you want full configurability, then we offer the e1280s ECU, which has 12 injector outputs and you can program anything in it how you want. Ie you could program it to be a coffee maker if you wanted to. That gives you the flexibility to implement your own preferred injector staging strategy or any other custom control. I couldn't quite see the AEM equivalent offering; on the website they only seem to show the series 2 being a plug and play, with no RX7 model listed, which would suggest that we need to go to the Infinity series to get an equivalent product to the 1280. But most people don't need this level of flexibility which is why we sell a lot more of the Select ECUs than the 1280.
I'm sure there are other things that the Infinity does that the 1280 doesn't support but this is one reason I say it's really important to people to be clear about what they want and make the best choice for them.
I'm sorry if the VE explanation was complicated but sometimes the internal workings have to be complicated to make it easy to use.
I might be misunderstanding because I'm not an AEM expert, but I was trying to look up the AEM models to compare. It looks to me (and please correct me here) that the plug & play AEM for the RX7 is a series 1 - so it also has the 4 injector output limitation. That price point and the Haltech PS1000 are the ones that the Select ECUs are really intended to compete with.
If you want full configurability, then we offer the e1280s ECU, which has 12 injector outputs and you can program anything in it how you want. Ie you could program it to be a coffee maker if you wanted to. That gives you the flexibility to implement your own preferred injector staging strategy or any other custom control. I couldn't quite see the AEM equivalent offering; on the website they only seem to show the series 2 being a plug and play, with no RX7 model listed, which would suggest that we need to go to the Infinity series to get an equivalent product to the 1280. But most people don't need this level of flexibility which is why we sell a lot more of the Select ECUs than the 1280.
I'm sure there are other things that the Infinity does that the 1280 doesn't support but this is one reason I say it's really important to people to be clear about what they want and make the best choice for them.
I'm sorry if the VE explanation was complicated but sometimes the internal workings have to be complicated to make it easy to use.
#39
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Yes, this is a limitation of our plug-in ECUs because they're designed for modified factory style applications (ie 4 injectors total).
I might be misunderstanding because I'm not an AEM expert, but I was trying to look up the AEM models to compare. It looks to me (and please correct me here) that the plug & play AEM for the RX7 is a series 1 - so it also has the 4 injector output limitation. That price point and the Haltech PS1000 are the ones that the Select ECUs are really intended to compete with.
I might be misunderstanding because I'm not an AEM expert, but I was trying to look up the AEM models to compare. It looks to me (and please correct me here) that the plug & play AEM for the RX7 is a series 1 - so it also has the 4 injector output limitation. That price point and the Haltech PS1000 are the ones that the Select ECUs are really intended to compete with.
If you want full configurability, then we offer the e1280s ECU, which has 12 injector outputs and you can program anything in it how you want. Ie you could program it to be a coffee maker if you wanted to. That gives you the flexibility to implement your own preferred injector staging strategy or any other custom control. I couldn't quite see the AEM equivalent offering; on the website they only seem to show the series 2 being a plug and play, with no RX7 model listed, which would suggest that we need to go to the Infinity series to get an equivalent product to the 1280. But most people don't need this level of flexibility which is why we sell a lot more of the Select ECUs than the 1280.
Originally Posted by EB Turbo;
In the FD PnP application You have full control over the OMP, Dash, Sequential turbos, All Emissions devices,
plus you still have:
1PWM output
4 injectors
3 coil outputs
1 extra knock input
2 dedicated lambda inputs
2 EGT/0-5v/ therm inputs
Another 4 0-5v inputs
5 low side drivers
3 switch input, 2 of which can be used for digital inputs
dedicated CAN line
Dedicated Serial communications for ECU Comms or 3rd party output
plus you still have:
1PWM output
4 injectors
3 coil outputs
1 extra knock input
2 dedicated lambda inputs
2 EGT/0-5v/ therm inputs
Another 4 0-5v inputs
5 low side drivers
3 switch input, 2 of which can be used for digital inputs
dedicated CAN line
Dedicated Serial communications for ECU Comms or 3rd party output
I'm sure there are other things that the Infinity does that the 1280 doesn't support but this is one reason I say it's really important to people to be clear about what they want and make the best choice for them.
I'm sorry if the VE explanation was complicated but sometimes the internal workings have to be complicated to make it easy to use.
I'm sorry if the VE explanation was complicated but sometimes the internal workings have to be complicated to make it easy to use.
EB Turbo
#40
Can I ask for a link for the Series 2 Base model ECU? I could only find the plug and play models and they seem to start at about $1455. Also how much is the patch harness for the RX7?
Thanks
Andy
Thanks
Andy
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EB Turbo
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I do. That really makes no difference to my statements. I have asked questions to Andy trying to figure out how certain things work in his ecu. If I feel that certain things could be better I address them. I have in no way promoted Tri-Point without someone requesting the information. I am not here to do that.
When people are making statements saying one product is better than the other I defend the truth with facts. So far no one has been able to prove me wrong.
From a professional tuner standpoint, understanding that these products are being sold to individuals. I see a lot of issues with specific features that will make your tuning process incorrect or flawed. Is it wrong for me to address them? This is the place that you are supposed to do that, correct?
EB Turbo
When people are making statements saying one product is better than the other I defend the truth with facts. So far no one has been able to prove me wrong.
From a professional tuner standpoint, understanding that these products are being sold to individuals. I see a lot of issues with specific features that will make your tuning process incorrect or flawed. Is it wrong for me to address them? This is the place that you are supposed to do that, correct?
EB Turbo
#44
I'm all for the discussion, that's how we improve things!
Whether any suggestions on how we could improve (or criticisms; I take them as the same ting) are commercially motivated or completely altruistic I don't think really matters, so long as the facts are correct and the arguments are actually relevant; at the end of the day we're trying to develop products to help people. That's my view anyway.
Thanks for the link EB; I'll check it out.
Whether any suggestions on how we could improve (or criticisms; I take them as the same ting) are commercially motivated or completely altruistic I don't think really matters, so long as the facts are correct and the arguments are actually relevant; at the end of the day we're trying to develop products to help people. That's my view anyway.
Thanks for the link EB; I'll check it out.
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I'm all for the discussion, that's how we improve things!
Whether any suggestions on how we could improve (or criticisms; I take them as the same ting) are commercially motivated or completely altruistic I don't think really matters, so long as the facts are correct and the arguments are actually relevant; at the end of the day we're trying to develop products to help people. That's my view anyway.
Thanks for the link EB; I'll check it out.
Whether any suggestions on how we could improve (or criticisms; I take them as the same ting) are commercially motivated or completely altruistic I don't think really matters, so long as the facts are correct and the arguments are actually relevant; at the end of the day we're trying to develop products to help people. That's my view anyway.
Thanks for the link EB; I'll check it out.
EB Turbo
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Does the ECU datalog with the MTX-l? HAvent messed with the car in about 3 weeks, but i would like to know if this ecu does this and i wont have to buy a datalogger to record my runs
#47
No, the MTXL does not datalog, and the ECU doesn't datalog.
The easiest way to log is by plugging in a laptop and logging with the software - usually at the drags they're happy so long as the laptop is strapped in. That's the way I've done it in my drag/street car. My road racing car has a proper standalone logger in it but I don't think you need that if you're logging drag runs (I assume that's what you mean by "runs"?)
Otherwise you can use the Zeitronix black box logger, but I'd say to use the laptop and the WARI software if you can because this logs more parameters.
Thanks!
Andy
The easiest way to log is by plugging in a laptop and logging with the software - usually at the drags they're happy so long as the laptop is strapped in. That's the way I've done it in my drag/street car. My road racing car has a proper standalone logger in it but I don't think you need that if you're logging drag runs (I assume that's what you mean by "runs"?)
Otherwise you can use the Zeitronix black box logger, but I'd say to use the laptop and the WARI software if you can because this logs more parameters.
Thanks!
Andy
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what about using the PL1 pocket logger?
PL-1: Pocket Logger, Innovate MTS Datalogger
Im new to tuning and as I read it makes it confusing as to how I should go about tuning my car properly. As of now I plan to take it to a well know rotary tuner but my concern is I would like to log runs and monitor "record" my runs and adjust if i need to
Danny
PL-1: Pocket Logger, Innovate MTS Datalogger
Im new to tuning and as I read it makes it confusing as to how I should go about tuning my car properly. As of now I plan to take it to a well know rotary tuner but my concern is I would like to log runs and monitor "record" my runs and adjust if i need to
Danny
#50
Yes I understand!
If you can strap the laptop in the car then you can leave that to log while you do your run. That's normally what I do with street cars.
The PL1 will log data in from the serial chain, so you can log AFR that way. However that's not very useful because you can't see revs, boost etc at the same time, so it doesn't tell you much for tuning purposes. I did look into outputting the data format for the Innovate PL1 so we could use it on that and the OT2 (so you can watch / log it on your iPhone) but the two seemed to have different protocols, and even using the Innovate hardware modules connected it doesn't all automatically configure and display. Hence why I suggested either the Zeitronix logger, or using a laptop strapped into the car, or a proper standalone logger like a Race Technology or Racepak.
Thanks!
If you can strap the laptop in the car then you can leave that to log while you do your run. That's normally what I do with street cars.
The PL1 will log data in from the serial chain, so you can log AFR that way. However that's not very useful because you can't see revs, boost etc at the same time, so it doesn't tell you much for tuning purposes. I did look into outputting the data format for the Innovate PL1 so we could use it on that and the OT2 (so you can watch / log it on your iPhone) but the two seemed to have different protocols, and even using the Innovate hardware modules connected it doesn't all automatically configure and display. Hence why I suggested either the Zeitronix logger, or using a laptop strapped into the car, or a proper standalone logger like a Race Technology or Racepak.
Thanks!
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