Compilez

iTrader: (3)

I think for the most part it's just going to be "in the eyes of the beholder." As said maybe until they become 25 years old.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

See the problem lies in that some people are interpreting the amount that the car will appreciate in the future. I think that some of you are thinking like it's gonna be a porsche speedster or something.

Worst case scenario: Check out a pristine VW karmann Ghia (I have one) collector's item? Some say yes some say no. I just got mine appraised for $12,900. That's quite a pretty penny for such a basic car.

The FD will be appreciated in the future for exactly what it is. A raw non-compromising sports car with great looks to go with it. It may never be a Shelby Cobra but it's no pinto either. The car will be worth money and it will be sought after, the question remains at exactly how much.

Investment? As in you will be glad you kept it because you made so much money on the sale. I don't think so.

thorsent

I think there may be a better chance for the RX7 based on historical price of the Z-car. Z's depreciated pretty consistently straight into the mid 90's but then started to hold their price. The ones in good condition are starting to fetch decent prices, especially the 240s. Considering that there were about 1/10 (or less?) the number of FDs as Z's I think we should stand at least an equal chance of "holding value" starting around 2013 or so. Then again, the real prices are always fetched for mint condition stockers of which there are what, like 6 left?

On another note, I got one of those big thick books of "Great Automobiles" as a present recently. I teared up when I saw that the 3rd gen was in there representing the "new wave of high performance Japanese sports cars in the mid 90's". Not the supra, not the 300z.

my-sons rx7

I dont really care so much as to gain value, but it would be nice to keep a holding price of 10k or more for a nice condition unmodified one. Either way, i dont really plan to get rid of the car, I just dont want them getting into the hands of someone who doesnt take care of it and junks it.

jupiter

nm

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Actually this is largely a myth.

AST failures, yes.

Pre-cat? No I don't believe so. The "pre-cat" myth started with the "big listers" way back in the day. The early failures were caused by track use, the pre-cat and main cat will fail under those conditions. If you look at many types of cars used in track use you'll see that failures with some componets are common.

I've seen many FDs that are completely stock with pre-cat still running fine after 100k miles.

Suspension bushings fail, yep. There are NO AFTERMARKET bushings that reduce failure rate.

jimlab

Pre-cats DID in fact fail and clog main cats, and many cars had their turbos replaced under warranty without resolving the problem by dealerships who didn't know any better. That is not a myth, nor were they all track cars. I suppose the engine fires are a myth too, or are you just selectively rewriting history today?

Just because you're one of the few left on the big list doesn't mean that you're the sole repository of FD knowledge, Jeff.

jimlab

You can say that again. Anyone truly concerned with the long-term resale value of their car should put it in storage immediately and return it to stock if it isn't already.

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

I did say pre-cats fail, typically under track usage, not daily driving.

Many cars had turbos replaced due to faulty dealer diagnosis, you are correct. No reliability mods fix this problem either.

Engine fires are not a myth but there are no "reliability mods" that fix that, just a recall that seems to have taken care of most problems.

Where did I go wrong in my statements, Jim?

Jeff

jimlab

That's not what I read in your post...

"Pre-cat? No I don't believe so. The "pre-cat" myth started with the "big listers" way back in the day. The early failures were caused by track use, the pre-cat and main cat will fail under those conditions."

Correct, although you still see fire damaged FDs for sale periodically, so there is still some potential risk even today.

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

The only reason you should be concerned with the price is if you're planning on buying another one. I can't imagine selling this car.

-s-

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Worded more clearly, without your interpreted "highlights".

I don't believe pre-cats fail under daily driving conditions typically. This does not eliminate the chance of failure, I just don't see a DP as a reliability mod.

Early pre-cat failures were typical of track useage typically.

A friend bought a 37K mile wreck that still ran and drove, the car had been tracked extensively (50+ events) with brake replacement receipts to prove it. It was nearly stock. The owner had replaced the pre-cat with a brand new Mazda part, when wrecked (at Sears Point btw) I got the exhaust off it. The pre-cat was failing again with only ~5k miles on it...

DamonB

Results with my car prove otherwise.

Besides, even if it is true that the car is completely unreliable in stock form the market doesn't work the way you think it does. When talking about cars that increase in value, become classic or collectable fully stock cars that have not been bastardized will always bring tremendously more money then those that are no longer true factory cars, no matter what your stance on increased performance or reliability.

DaveW

On the pre-cat issue, I just installed a DP. When I removed the original pre-cat with ~49K miles of almost entirely road useage (I have about 100 total miles of track days on the car), several small bits of the pre-cat metal grid fell out. I don't know if this signalled imminent failure, but it didn't seem like a good sign.

jimlab

Interpreted highlights? You didn't include any information that would lead anyone well-versed in the English language to believe that pre-cat failures were a result of anything but track use.

What was your English score on the SAT, Jeff?

So battery failures (and occasional explosions) attributable to underhood heat were a myth as well? How about issues relating to heat-baked vacuum lines and wiring harnesses?

I already had cracks in my turbo and exhaust manifold at 3.5k miles when we did the non-sequential conversion and my car had never been near a track at that time. I've seen several manifolds from other cars that haven't been on the track either that also had cracks. Does that mean that only street use causes cracking?

Excessive heat causes problems no matter where or how the car is used. I don't believe that your small sample set proves anything except that those instances had problems with the pre-cat and had been used on the track. Do you have a larger data set I don't know about to prove conclusively that track use is almost always the cause of the problem, or are you going off only the few examples that you know about?

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Any part of the car has a failure rate, I expect that pre-cats can and do fail with age. The myth I'm suggesting is that the pre-cat isn't this engine killing part it was made out to be.





Battery temps are not really changed by the addition or deletion of a pre-cat. Heat baked vacuum lines aren't a problem until people move them. Pre-cat or no pre-cat vacuum line and wiring harness life isn't dramatically different.


Turbo manifolds crack (cast piece between the turbos) and over time crack extensively without effecting turbo operation. Are you saying the exhaust manifold that attaches to the block also cracked? I've never seen one of those crack.

I'm going off my relatively large amount of personal experience here coupled with other people's experience. I read on the list about pre-cat failures long ago, now I believe that MOST of the early failures were associated with track use.

You disagree, that is fine. I know your experience level with running stock and mildly modded FDs is much less than mine. There are only a handful of people here that have as much FD experience as me. I'm offering my opinion.

The original post referred to many reliability mods, the AST without a doubt could be considered a reliability mod.

The pre-cat as a reliability mod, it can be argued, underhood temps are lower without it, that is good. It isn't the smoking gun IMHO that people think it is. Pre-cats and main cats can run too hot if the plugs are bad, that could lead to failure not associated with track use.

What else is a reliability mod? Water temp guage? People are calling everything a reliability mod these days, PFC (base maps are leaner than stock), bigger IC, etc...

1fstwrx

i'd say, as with most japanese turbo charged car, once you hit the 30k mile mark you should start thinking about a new one. althought that does depend on how hard you drive it/what condition it is/how rare the car is.....in fact, it depends on too much to even guess....but in my opinion, the prices will drop...then over time they will start to go up again due to how rare it will be later on.

jimlab

That's certainly true, but of course I left stock and mildly modified behind about 3 months after I bought my car.

Well, give yourself a pat on the back. That and a few dozen restored FDs might put your kids through school.

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Good for you.

Thanks I'll do that.

Your car might be running when your kids are through school.

impactwrench

I have a 71' Cuda convertible for sale for $1500.00, anyone interested?

jimlab

Oh, I don't know that it'll take quite that long, but I'll still have the luxury of not caring if it isn't.

fastcarfreak

Im sorry, but i dont believe for one moment, that you dont care if you FD gets finished in the near future. If you didnt care, you would just scrap the project. Either way, i think this thread has gone way of topic.

jimlab

You're more than welcome to believe whatever you want to, but the evidence is certainly not in your favor.

FD mission

AST, radiator, pre cat, main cat, engine coolant seals, air pump, IC and couplings, wiring harness...shall I go on? very, very few stock FDs have all of the above intact at +100k....like NONE

my original point stands....these cars are a ticking time bomb stock

trunks

they probably will. it has all the cues to be a classic. look at the datsun 240z. now is the time to buy one because they just dropped to the bottom price wise a few years ago and have been appreciating in value ever since.