moehler

iTrader: (12)

alright... so save up money over many years, whats the difference ?? what's the point of this thread? If you want to know why David Hayes (I'm guessing that's who you were originally refering to) is doing it, then pm him or something . I think his car is amazing, a lot of people do, if you don't and do not think it was worth it, then that's cool... why should there be a 5 page thread about it??

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

Not meant to be harsh but the truth sometimes hurts. I hold nothing against anyone who can afford to do it and doesn't. I just don't feel sorry for the price tag and the fact stillremains, ,..That they were willing to get raped on price to have someone else do it. Simple really. Not derogatory unless you are defensive about your choices.

It still holds true though that "most" people that have a 20B were willing to take the 1 hour a weekennd because of the wife, kids, and "honeydues" that come with family and real life. That is why it sometimes takes 5-8 years to get done( Jimlab Yes he is v8 don't go there) still takes time and people are willing to wait.

I don't look down on anybody that pays for it. Unless they are arrogant about their money and speak false knowledge due to a 20 B under the hood.

cafcwest

35k conversion = Someone who drops off a car at the shop, tells them to use the best stuff, and never turns a wrench for themself........and they are still getting raped out the ***.

USCmatt

If you are talking about all out modifying both an FD and M3, why would you say the M3 has better handling? Didnt an FD win the SM2 Nationals? and wasnt there an M3 in the mix of that group?

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Yea Louis, and we all know what happened w/ that 94...so lets not bring that up

Qualify this statement...cuz it's totally bogus. A 13B putting out 500rwhp is not reliable, but a 20B? Ppl do the 20B *specifically* to break the 500hp range, RELIABLY, and w/ tons more torque.

Dude, check your math. If I'm doing a 20B swap, I can start w/ an FD that isn't running. All I want is a straight chassis...so $6K - $8K should do fine. But lets ASSUME I'm stupid and buy a running FD for $15K. I don't need the engine or parts, so I'd sell 'em and get at least $5K back, putting me at $10K range for starters. The 20B itself costs $3500 - $5500, depending on the mileage, condition, if it's just the engine or accessories/front clip, etc. So we're up to $15K. Subframe, labor, turbo, fabrication, etc etc, add another $10K. So we're up to $25K. Do somethin fancy (which is where people start running out of money) like very nice turbo kit, port the engine, aftermarket IC, upgrade the tranny, etc, you're gonna add on another $10K. You're now up to $35K. Add on another $5K for misc last minute costs, you've now hit a grand total of $40K, and can wipe the floor with practically ANYTHING under $250K.

Louis, you're from this area. I don't think I need to remind you how we have as many M3s asMustangs in this area. Why would you want what EVERYONE else has? To me, THAT'S a waste of money...to pour money into something you'll run into every day, multiple times at that.

-- in reference to Pettit's 1/4mile time w/ his 20B.
Note w/ Pettit: he's more concerned about all around reliability than peak performance. He boasts 550hp, 460 ft-lbs of torque. That's on the Cosmo stock twins (reworked). Imagine what a single turbo could make on that setup. Oh, and Pettit is also overpriced, so what he does for $35K, anyone else can prob do for $25K, give or take a grand.

That's cuz most ppl run outta money by the time they get to that point. Can they make that kind of power? Absolutely. Can they afford it? That's a totally diff question...

That's absolute BASE price. Ppl have spent well into the upper $50Ks by the time they're out the door...so I dunno what you're talking about. And a 3 series is totally diff than an M3. That's comparing apples & oranges.

Of course you're gonna mention things like "overall" and "four seats" to get over the fact that a M3 is 3400lbs, and thus will take much more power to compete w/ a 20B FD...it's that simple. Also, you gotta talk about purpose... the FD (much like the Porsche) is a purpose-built car. It's got a diff purpose than the M3. FD drivers simply don't want/need back seats. If you need them, maybe you're a diff driver, and the FD just isn't for you in the first place.

Let's not forget that the same magainze also named the Porsche 911 the best handling car under $100K a few years ago (yes, the M3 was #2 on the list). And those lists are only considering cars currently in production. I'm curious where the FD would sit if it was still in production. In the meantime, you can't use that to compare.

I already discussed the look of the M3. It's real nice...I love it...but I never miss it. I can look out the window at my neighbors, and immediately remember how it looks like On the other hand, my ENTIRE neighborhood runs to their windows when they hear my car start up and me driving out...

Louis M

ooh, below the belt... below the belt

my beef which started this entire thread was who spends 35k for a conversion... if you can do it yourself and do it for $10k, good job and go ahead... my problem was who spends 35k...
Also, about the M3, I just threw out a car... you can sub it in for a Z06 or anything like that...
don't you have a red w/ lambo doors? if so, i need to check it out some time... might change my opinons on the subject

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Hey I didn't elaborate on it lol. Just a friendly reminder

While that's a lot of money to spend on a car, I gotta tell ya, I simply don't have the skills, nor will I EVER have the time to put together a 20B + all the addons (ie doing it right), so if I did go that way, it would have to be professionally done (ie def. not by me). Oh, and the lowest estimates I've seen for doing a 20B swap yourself (just a swap, nothing else, no engine work, keeping the stock turbos, using the stock IC, etc) is $15K total (including cost of the engine).

As for the Z06, I'm sorry...that still won't float. C'mon Louis, we have just as many Vettes as M3s and Stangs! lol. Vettes are a dime a dozen, plus, while they handle and perform incredibly, they're still domestics, which means the interior SUCKS, and I don't trust built quality very much... Even Motor Trend recently commented on how the new Vette's styling is ahead of it's time, but the interior is appalling, giving the car's handling and price. Domestics will be domestics.

Maybe I'm biased (yea, I am lol), but c'mon now, I have NEVER EVER seen a more appealing interior than the FD's, hands down. It makes you feel like you're a part of the car...like a cockpit. Everything within finger reach

Not quite...I got a BLACK FD w/ lambo doors lol. As much as red is a beautiful color, no way was I gonna get a red FD. NoVa po-po are bad as it is, plus EVERYBODY has red or MB. No fun. But yea...if you're still in the area, swing by the next MSCW meet...prob the last one I'll make it out to before the ground freezes

plan9

I love the look of both. In fact, my previous car was a beautiul Dakar Yellow E36 M3. And I would say without a doubt, that the RX7 outhandles the E36 in every way - at least with both using stock suspension.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I see what your problem is Louis. You really don't know all the cost involved with the 35k price tag Pettit charges. You see along time ago Pettit actually had a pricing breakdown of everything involved in the conversion on his web site. The 35k isn't just the engine conversion, it's a complete conversion. Example:

engine
rebuild & blue printing
turbo rebuild & blue printing
subframe
spindles
radiator
IC & piping
fuel system upgrade
ecu
ignition coils
wheels
tires
tuning
misc parts
ect

From memory all the parts total 26k and the price of labor was 9k to install everything. Thats were the 35k comes from. This is also about what Peter Farrell charged for his conversion and his envolved a ton more work. So thats pretty much been the standard.

In the end sometimes spending money like this for a conversion doesn't make since but, look at what Lingenfelter charges for his stage 2 twin turbo upgrade for the Vette. For 44k this is what you get:

engine rebuild with upgraded forged internals, cams, crank, valve train ect
twin turbo chargers
manifolds
twin IC's & piping
fuel system
full exhaust

To this day I still don't understand why it cost 44k for someone to remove your old engine, rebuild it with upgraded internals and then reinstall it. Then slap on twin IC's, twin turbo chargers w/exhaust & fuel system. If you break it down the turbo system itself maybe cost 10k. That means the engine rebuild & uprgrade alone would cost maybe 24k leaving 10k for labor. To me that doesn't make since but to each his own.

Flybye

This thread is funny

I have not even read ONCE anyone mention that the Pettit $35k convertion includes EVERYTHING.

1) Engine upgrade
2) Installation of body upgrades and repainted
3) Brake system upgrade
4) ECU upgrade
5) New clutch kit
6) New complete exhaust
7) Suspension upgrade
8) Wheel upgrade
9) Radiator upgrade

The list just goes on and ON with the Banzai from Pettit. For $35k, you leave them your car, and they take care of EVERYTHING. I've seen the Banzai several times in person. The guys there are perfectionists. The engine bay looks as clean as anything that could have ever come from a manufacturer.

Let's price out everything (keep in mind up throwing VERY rough figures here):
20b - about $5000
Rebuilt for the 20b - about $5000
Rebuilt high flow turbos - about $1500
Lightweight flywheel kit - about $600
Custom downpipe - about $200
Custom midpipe - about $200
Custom muffler - about $400
Wheel upgrade - about $3000
Tires - about $1000
Upgraded radiator - about $500
Front mount intercooler with custom piping - about $1500
Fully programmable ECU with new wiring harness - about $2000
Pulley kit - about $300
Sleek light kit - $1300
Body upgrades (painted)- about $1500
Brake upgrade - about $1500
Suspension upgrade - about $1000
New subframe - about $500
New fuel pump - about $150
New ignition system - ???
New fuel lines - ????

We are at $27,150 so far. The rest $7850 (or less) can easily go into labor. At $60/hr that's about 134 hours also including in house dyno tuning.

Well, like I said, the Banzai is a FULL upgrade for the guy that has a 100% bone stock FD that decides to hand it to Pettit for a convertion. Can the home mechanic guys do it for much cheaper? Of course. And don't forget, there are plenty of guys who allready have much of the hardware needed. For some, it's just a matter of dropping in a rebuilt 20b with new ECU & subframe, modifying the fuel system a bit for the new engine, and there you have it.

Flybye

Hey t-von, we came close with our figures LOL

jimlab

You must have a different car than I do.

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

Speaking of to each his own, I wouldn't drive an M3 (or any BMW) if you gave it to me. Yea, by all acounts it may be a great car, but it doesn't have any appeal to me whatsoever. I don't particulary care for the Porsche, either. I WILL take a Viper, and maybe even a really good 'Vette. When I bought my FD ten years ago, I looked at everything and I could have bought most anything. I choose the FD understanding that it wasn't perfect; but to me, it does a lot of things right. And it was different. So that was the choice I made as an individual. If someone wants to do something, for any reason, so be it. That is individualism.

As soon as I can figure out how to put a 20B (which I think of as a rotary "big block") in a California FD and keep it completely legit and somg legal, I will do so. I already have many of the components for the conversion. And I will do the job myself because much of the enjoyment for me comes from the fabrication involved and the accomplishment at the end of the project. Some will say to me, why don't you have someone else do it? It is not as if I can't afford it. But they're missing the point... I will do it because I WANT TO and because I CAN.

HEns

People are enthusiests they do whatever they like cos they love it, there is not point trying to justify it more then that.

S-MAN

He's a true FD lover. I chose the the FD for its one of a kind style. You just don't see to many of them on the streets. Now that i know more about the rotary power, i think it would b very hard to go back to pistons. We choose to modify our cars to make them a part of us. Muscle car freaks do the same crap all the time. I hope to be able to put the 20b in my FD in a few years. I hope everything goes great for this guy and i think u should just let him do what he wants to do and SHUT UP ABOUT IT

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

what are you talking about??? im working on a 3rotor conversion now, and there is no way its going to be $75K.... thats just rediculous. here you go... ground up build
$3400 cosmo front clip
$5000 FD (engine fire)
$1200 (to fix things from the engine fire)
$1200 interior goodies (seats, dash, steering wheel, shifter, other silly stuff etc etc)
$1000 rims
$1000 tires
$2000 Pettit subframe
$1300 FMIC
$1400 clutch and Flywheel
$2000 aftermarket ecu
$ 800 gauges etc
$ 600 fuel pump, BOV, FPD, intake piping
---------
$18,900 (im sure there are things im leaving out but you get the idea. now add full paint job, and a 99 front end and wing to that, and thats basically how ive wasted my money). now heres my justification: i started collecting parts for this 2 years ago. (i actually bought the motor before the car hehe). anyway, i think about it like this... i could have walked into a dealarship 2 years ago and bought say a brand new honda accord.... or whatever car would have cost say $25K at the time. i would have gotten the longest loan length possible (5 years). the car would then be paid off in 3 more years from now. so i look at it like this.... i could spend $25K + interest for a car that in 5 years will have little resale value, and would be no fun to drive what-so-ever.... or i could put that $$ into building a 20b rx7 (which im guessing id be able to sell in 3 more years for around 25K). in the end id either be left with a boring daily driver, or a sports car (that was fun to build along the way and a great experience all around) that could hang with many $100,000 cars. From a practical standpoint (wife/girlfriend/life-partner, etc talking) the accord would have been the better buy, but i would have to disagree.... and i figure, as long as i have to drive it, i should get to pick it. personally i think it was an OK (albeit a bit crazy) choice. just my 2 cents. -heath

Mr. Stock

I disagree with you about the M3.
The M3 has a very highly stressed engine. It makes more than a 100horses/liter in a non-aspirated form. To eke out more power from this engine would take a miracle.

As a matter of fact, the engine has been a sort of a nightmare for BMW. It has a continuous recall from day 1 up until this year. And who knows when BMW is going to extend the recall to the cars being sold now.

With this unreliable engine, the supercharger system available for it apparently does not net much in terms of horsepower. I doubt that a turbocharger system is going to pay any more dividends.

the ancient words

great post by flybye

why a 3 rotor? one word: UNIQUE

and the ability to kick the **** out of 99.9% of anything else on the road....sign me up

Mr. Stock

Why Would Anyone Do a 20B Conversion?!

1)Coolness factor: What is cooler than a 20B in a third gen RX7? Maybe a Ferrari Modena with a F1 motor conversion???

2)Uniqueness quotient: How many third gen RX7's have a 20B conversion? It's a very exclusive club.

3)Do-it-yourself: Some like to work out problems installing a larger engine in a car designed for a smaller one.

I am sure there are many more reasons. The point is that it is a subjective decision loosely based on slightly objective facts. In life, not everything makes sense to everyone. However, a 20B conversion makes good sense to me.

darkphantom

iTrader: (2)

enough said,


2 rotor= 350Zkiller

3 rotor = poesche killer

4 rotor = ???

1sicsol

Im surprised that no one has mentioned that some of the fasest drag cars are 20b 3rotors because of the hp potential; BUT

Im also suprised no one has mention a Supra. It's normal to have 600-700whp 2jzgte daily driven on pump-gas literally on the stock motor while being practally indestructable and far more reliable than any rotary.

Personally, with the whole relibility/pumpgas/apex/boost/highhp crap problems of these rotarys, I'd rather spend my money on a better powerplant to begin with.

But then we argue that they want a high hp with good handeling (ie 3 rotor rx7) but how is is going to handle when you can keep the tires from spinning?

Rx-7Addict

iTrader: (2)

it doesnt take a 3 rotor to whomp on the porsche guys

DjRannyKan

ill ask u this why do people put sr20's into us 240's??

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

You know, I'm not sure what I would get from my currently 7 (the blk one)..
I'll break down the cost a bit.. Engine-$2500 to $7000 (my case I need to completely rebuild it), Custom intake work - $500-1000, Custom oil pan - est. 400 to 700, ECU - 2000 to 4000 (depends on what kind), Single turbo (2000-4500), IC - 1000 to 2000, fuel - 1000,.... so, 15k is reasonable.. Like I said, tranny and other stuff will be more..

Great thing about 20b is its uniqueness.. I've recently read that less than 4000 20b cosmos were made,... which means less than 6000 20b engines were made (my guess).. Now that's pretty rare! Now see how many fd's with 20b's.. I rather have an unique car than, something that i could go pick it up at a show room..

Oh.. also since I read few comparison between 7s and BMWs, I want to add something. When I bought my 7 in 2001, literally that same day I went to this fundraising event in TN, where I got to drive almost every model BMW's.. after taking some of them upto 130-140 MPH, I get in my newly purchased 7 and thought, "wow". The 7's drove so much better.. I've also driven the M3, and still my slightly modded 7 was more fun to drive..

the ancient words

Im also suprised no one has mention a Supra. It's normal to have 600-700whp 2jzgte daily driven on pump-gas literally on the stock motor while being practally indestructable and far more reliable than any rotary

but then you would have to seen driving a car that closely resembles a bloated whale with a large rear fin

I suppose I could drive a minivan with 2,000 hp as well, but who gives a ****?