Nathan Kwok

Lets face it, when they're running properly we keep modding them for more power until they break .

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

IMO, more owners these days are more dependent on the internet to solve their problems rather than "taking a stab at it" themselves.

How many times do you see threads where someone is told to check things to narrow down the problem area, but they keep bumping their thread it until they get a response that says "this is exactly your problem".

AMRAAM4

Looking in the For Sale section here answers the question for me.

"WTB: 93-95 FD in X "

...then you look at their ad and they state they just want a 3rd gen, love them, BUUUUT, "I only want to spend about $8-10k"

I honestly don't mean to sound vain, but this **** annoys me to no end. Yeah, it shouldn't bother me, but I think in actuality it does because these owners who are cheap are placing that same disregard on the upkeep for the POS they buy. Solid engine work alone is at least half the price these people want to pay And lets be honest, 90% don't know how to do the **** themselves. I try to handle as much as I can, but I pay a solid FD mechanic when I don't, these people don't. They cheap out at the beginning, then **** breaks and they try and barnyard it out or half *** it with a piston engine mechanic friend...meanwhile months go by and the bill ads up, and the car sits and rots.

I don't hail the FD as God's gift...only one of them ... but these cars are rare, they catch attention of even non-car enthusiasts, and people are only worried about picking up some POS with their money they got from selling their Civic or motorbike. You dont' see this in the Supra community...and that's why there aren't as many POS's.

*has a feeling he is going to catch heat now*

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Why? Bob, I think you're right on. I said essentially the same thing in my post above (#20). You also pointed out a clue I missed. While at times you can find a "steal" within your budget, that's by far the minority of cases. In the venture to find the ideal FD, I honestly think distance and price should be LAST on your list. Condition, mods, service history, current problems, test drive and inspection report from a well-known rotary specialist etc...all these should be #1 on the list, WHICH IN TURN dictate price. Ppl are looking for the best they can but already cutting their feet from underneath them by setting unrealistic conditions and goal (30K mile mint FD for $8k - $10, within 50 mile radius) lol.

I remember when I was searching for an FD, I was searching *nationwide*. I had a list of 22 possible cars....that's right. TWENTY TWO. And they were ALL OVER the place. Simply from the Carfax and speaking to the owners, I narrowed it down to less than a handful of cars. And at that point, I realized if I wanted something this nice, I would *have* to up by budget accordingly. So I did. And I ended up buying my FD from Miami, spent a considerable amount of money going down to pick it up, inspect it, drive it back, etc...but all in all, I can say the car has given me *very* little trouble. Hence why I see all the expenses up front as an "investment" for keeping the car from beoming a non-stop headache.

I also wanna reiterate what you said about ppl cutting corners. Simply said, if you can't afford to repair it correctly 100%, and completely, right now...LET THE CAR SIT. Get a daily driver, and when you get enough money, fix her right. It's MUCH better than putting 1001 bandaid fixes on the car, only to have her fall apart one day, all at once, and at that point the repair cost is so high, you're gonna end up selling for dirt cheap, and be out a LOT more than what you initially put in...just cuz of a few dollars here and there you tried to save.

~Ramy

SINxSELEKTAH

iTrader: (2)

+1

you CAN find one from 6-8k...NON-RUNNING but for most that don't know what they're getting into, until they find out how much the rebuild is from a specialized rotary mechanic.

i myself do not know how to work on my ****, but i always have my ear open and will someday buy a blown block and follow the directions and advice i've heard & read from this message board

the other week some middle aged woman saw my car and didn't know what it was. after i told her it was in fact a 93 mazda rx7, she said "i thought it was some sort of exotic car from the way it sounds" =

USCmatt

Agree 100%

The 8-10k crap annoys me too, especially when they wanna trade a POS+cash. I think it all starts when they read about someone getting a really good deal in that range. Then because of that one good deal they feel like the price bar should be lowered across the board. How many times have you read guys bragging about how little they paid for their "pristine" fd? I have quite a few times.

Anyone else also notice in the last year the number of part-outs due to a blown engine or something other than a wreck? Or the number of for-sale ads for "projects" and "rollers"?


Oh and I'll add this. In a few years, I would like to have 2 FD's in the family, and I can tell you that if I look at one that has one of those cheap *** XSPower intercoolers, it's getting crossed off the list immediately. To me that shows how much effort you put into the your car. Who knows what else they decided to go cheap on that isnt readily visible? I might get flamed for that stereotype considering the number of people buying it, but I'm sure there are many others that feel the same way I do.

coolvette

Thank you AMRAAM4 and FDnewbie for telling it like it is.Its very simple,if you buy a cheap high milage fd that prob had several owners, the chances are better than average that you will have problems with the car and end up sinking tons of extra cash into it.My fd bought last year with 8300 miles from the original owner and is now at 21,000 has had 0 problems.This is my 2nd fd,i bought the 1st with 27k and sold it with 51 k and i had only a few minor problems, 1 bad wire, and intercooler piping. .It was stock and only a 2 owner car.I paid extra for both cars and was rewarded with reliabilty. peace of mind when owning a fd=Priceless .

twokrx7

iTrader: (1)

Let's face it, most of the rotary owners with the money to afford a nicer newer more expensive performance car have moved on. As many have said on this thread the cars wind up in the hands of folks that don't spend the $$$ to keep them up and the result is a POS car that could be something special with the right $$$ invested.

I work on third gens from time to time and I can count on one hand how often a truly pristine third gen has driven into my driveway. Some nice ones still drive around with significant issues simply because the owners don't want to spend the $$$, it's crazy. I see guys with decent cars that have $10k in mods but the car runs like crap because they don't want to spend a few hundred to get them tuned and running right. And even new owners that believe their third gen is in perfect condition show up with a beater of a 7. Some know that they just bought a POS and are ready to resurect them, I love this new and rare breed of owner and so there is some hope.

But alas, the long since gone knightly owners have mostly moved on and left their stallions to those without the means to keep them properly fed and cared for. The result is a population of worn out beaters that are mostly worthy of "roller" status or perhaps just a bit more. Gone are the days that I look forward to Rx7 club meetings in hope of seeing something truly nice or perhaps something new and innovative underhood that impresses.

JConn2299

There have been some long lasting plastic AST's reported, but I agree, it's a weak spot. I would say my major contention is that while FD engines often appear to be fragile, they don't have to be. Engines that last 100,000+ miles are more than a statistical quirk. There is something real in a material sense going on here.
Something real in either construction or maintenance that makes them different from an engine that blows at 50k or 60k miles. What that is, as I say, is an open question in mind. I'd love to have a more definitive answer.

As far as the median goes we don't have a scientific sample upon which we can make a reasonable reading. First and foremost, most of the cars we read about on this forum have been modified. I'm confining my comments to stock, or near stock cars. Squeezing this much power out of a 1.3 litre engine means it has a
relatively narrow safety margin. The number of modified cars may be so large that it's impossible for me to get a reasonable answer to my question based on the small number of stock cars that are left. This is a car that attracts street racers who are always looking to push it for extreme performance.

One final point, that has been made by many others, is that forums like this tend to attract people who are looking for solutions to problems. That can lead to an impression that the car is nothing but trouble. I'm not saying the 3rd Generation RX-7 engine has the reliability of something like, say, the legendary Slant 6. But I do think it's fragility has been a bit *overblown.*

TangoSore

"Overblown."

Nice one, Jconn.

RX-Tex7

Im actually about to buy my FD and i dont plan on paying that much on it. I'd rather know what i fixed and what problems are solved (for a while) and fix it by goin to the shop down the street which is awesome cause its gotham racing and there like 5 miles away. I'd rather know whats all done and not worry about it. So to me paying 11k or 12k on a FD is alright then keepin it up with a lot of cash is alright. So to me goin cheap aint all that bad. Or is it?

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

JConn2299, I have a *heavily* modified FD (every bolt-on under the sun), and she's clicked past the 90K mile marker w/o any problems. Original motor and turbos

RX-Tex7, I fail to see the wisdom in your approach. So you're willing to spend a good bit of money, but just not initially? When you buy that $11K or $12K FD, you're actually doing exactly the OPPOSITE of what you'd like: you're getting a car w/ pretty much unknown history (several owners), each of which has put their unique "touch" or "fix" on the problems that have arose over the years. You'll spend TONS more that way, trying to investigate the problems and address them, than say, if you went to Steve (of GothamRacing, which IS an incredible shop btw ) and you tell him "Hey Steve, I have an $18K budget. Find me a pristine problem-free FD, or take an FD and make it so."

It's always cheaper to have the work already done, than to have to go and re-do it yourself. Think LONG term, not short term, and that, honestly, is one of the biggest problems w/ kids on the forum today. Everyone's thinking short term. I mean what the HELL are ppl doing buying M2 and Pettit ECU's?!?! The days of piggyback ECUs is LOOOONG gone....all just to save a few bucks? It leaves me And when you do finally need an actual standalone, your Pettit/M2 won't be worth jack, so you won't even be able to recoup your costs by selling it, and you'll have to pay near full price for the standalone. Might as well have bought the standalone from the get-go and saved your money!

~Ramy

JConn2299

Don't know how to interpret your winking smilie....I assume what you're telling me is true. I would put another point on the maintenance / not abused side of the ledger. I don't think your engine just happened to get to 90k without blowing. There's a material reason for it. My guess is you've done things that have prevented your engine from detonating, overheating, or springing a coolant seal leak. What do you think? What do you think has worked in your favor?

As I say, I don't have a definitive answer. By my observation of the posts on this forum, most engines go bad by way of a leaking coolant seal. Now, is this due to some overheating of the engine, either blatant or subtle? Or is it due to something else that causes the seal itself to deteriorate? Could there be a materials or workmanship variation in the seals that cause some to go out earlier than others? I don't know.

The second most common cause, but by a significantly smaller margin (again, by my personal observation) is detonation and apex seal failure. My guess is modded engines are more prone to this type of failure than stock or near stock engines. If there are stock engines that have suddenly blown up this way I'd love to know the cause. Bad gas? Clogged fuel filter? Clogged exhaust? Mysterious Green Rotary Gremlin?

I'd be interested to read posts with additional information, or contrasting opinions.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Yea I wasn't joking. I was dead serious And I beat the living crap outta my FD too I dunno what the secret is though. I'm religious about checking my coolant (50/50) and oil levels, and changing the oil every 2500 miles. I have a vented hood and a large front airdam for better airflow...and I had my ECU professionally tuned. If something wasn't 100%, I simply took a drive (or tow hehe) down to PFS, and had the experts fix it, w/o cutting any corners. That's really all I've done.

Oh wait...I've VERY RARELY gone full WOT on cold nights, simply due to my fear of spike and creep (yes, I even run a MP hehe)

Heck, 90K original miles, boosting 13 - 15 psi for probably 15K - 20K of 'em, and Steve Kan told me my turbos sounded VERY healthy when he heard 'em.

I'm just grateful, and that's the bottom line.

~Ramy

DaveW

[QUOTE=JConn2299]By my observation of the posts on this forum, most engines go bad by way of a leaking coolant seal. Now, is this due to some overheating of the engine, either blatant or subtle? Or is it due to something else that causes the seal itself to deteriorate? Could there be a materials or workmanship variation in the seals that cause some to go out earlier than others?[QUOTE]

Here are a couple of additional (besides overheating) possibilitiies for early coolant seal failure:
1. Corrosion in the seal grooves due to infrequent A-F changes, running w/o corrosion inhibitors, or using non-distilled water.
2. High cooling-system pressures due to running just water and a corrosion inhibitor, instead of using A-F (raises the boiling point and reduces system pressure).
3. High (but normal) coolant temperatures caused by the stock thermoswitch turning the fans on at too high temperature.
4. In combination with the above, the normal tendency of o-rings to take a set and become less resilient with time and temperature.

moconnor

iTrader: (14)

With few exceptions, a $10k-$12k or so FD rarely makes any sense. In my experience, nearly all FDs in this range have high miles, bad paint and shot interiors. Few are well maintained, because well-maintained FDs do not sell in this price range.

A high quality paint job is $5k+ (yeah, I know, your friend had his entire Integra repainted for $1k - give him a cookie) and figure $2-$4k for the interior trim and seats too (I'm assuming used prices - new would be $10k or more). Because of the absurd prices for FD parts, bringing a poorly maintained car back to a reasonable maintance level can easily take another $1-$2k. (I'm ignoring a possible $5k rebuild here.) And , there is no fixing high miles: no matter how much money you pour into a high mileage car, it will never command a premium.

The sad reality is that nearly all $10k-$12k FDs are cars that are well on their way to death. Few (not all) owners who spend this amount of money on their car can afford to refurbish or maintain it so it will get shittier year by year. If the engine dies, these owners will probably not be able to afford a $5k rebuild so it they will have to dump it for $6-7k.

The irony is that there are quite a few well-maintained, good condition, decent miles, recent rebuild FDs in the $14-$15k range. In the $16-$18k range, some very nice cars can be had. These cars may seem more expensive than bottom-feeder FDs, but they are effectively much cheaper.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Wut the... Aren't you the guy who posts in ppl's FS threads that you can and have bought FD's for $8K, and that essentially *anything* over $12K is overpriced?!

mdpalmer

iTrader: (24)

My ressurection bill goes like this:

11000 car
1000 shipping
1000 tax
400 exhaust
200 cat converter
100 O2 sensor
100 gauges
50 gauge senders
100 gauge pod
400 wheels
100 alternator
100 suspension arms
50 stock air box/hoses
50 IC ducting
10 coolant resivior
50 fluids
50 fuel filter
40 spark plugs
10 vaccuum line
50 spare parts (nuts, bolts, etc.)
500 coolant hose kit, fuel line recall kit, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pulsation damper
500 turbos
500 clutch
650 Power FC
500 radiator
650 engine harness
500 high flow fuel pump, 1300 cc secondary injectors
200 tail lights
350 door handles x 2
70 lock cylinders x 2
5500 engine rebuild, R & R
-------------------------------------
24,780 (11,780 just to bring the car back to life!)

In retrospect, I should have just bought an FD in better shape--period. And my car still needs paint! And the interior is fu*cked! I still need a stereo, take care of my brakes, replace suspension bushings, etc. Oh well, I still love my car

moconnor

iTrader: (14)

Em, no? Not sure who you are thinking of? I do think lots of FDs are vastly overpriced (which is why they sit on the market for months or years) but not that overpriced. I paid over $16k for mine.

Fd3BOOST

iTrader: (7)

Why did you pay $11000 for a car that needed so much work? ^^

mdpalmer

iTrader: (24)

Honestly, I'm a moron. I didn't think it would need that much to get it back to "reasonable running condition". I thought I did my homework, and was aware of the imminent $$$ pit, but I undercut my estimate by about $6000. I'm just kind of "taking it in the ***" at this point; but I figured that it would be more costly to just sell the thing and get a lower milage one instead of building this one back up (I do have a rational basis for saying this.... I have a few spreadsheets with all the numbers filled in). Yeah, it sucks.

JConn2299

[QUOTE=DaveW

Here are a couple of additional (besides overheating) possibilitiies for early coolant seal failure:
1. Corrosion in the seal grooves due to infrequent A-F changes, running w/o corrosion inhibitors, or using non-distilled water.
2. High cooling-system pressures due to running just water and a corrosion inhibitor, instead of using A-F (raises the boiling point and reduces system pressure).
3. High (but normal) coolant temperatures caused by the stock thermoswitch turning the fans on at too high temperature.
4. In combination with the above, the normal tendency of o-rings to take a set and become less resilient with time and temperature.[/QUOTE]


Good post DaveW. They all make sense to me. I have a sneaking suspicion that while most owners seem to be religious about their oil changes, changing the coolant frequently is something many they let slide. I know one thing I'll look at first in an open FD engine bay is the brake fluid reservoir. I often see fluid that is dark brown / black, which usually indicates to me it's been quite some time since the last flush and refill. Maintenance is boring. With $$$ in your pocket it's tempting to go for bling bling or go fast parts.

StealthFox

iTrader: (2)

im sorry but with all the stuff that car needed(shot interior, need of new paint, need of rebuild) i would say that car was worth no more than 7 or 8k i don't mean to rub it in or make you feel bad, but its the truth, i cant believe you have spent 25k on a car that has bad paint a shot exterior, bad brakes(suspension ushings are whatever all FDs need them eventually) people get great running great condition exterior/interior fds for 16-19k. at least that 25k includes a newy rebuilt motor by a reputable well known rotary mechanic.

i feel bad to sticking it to you so bad, but think of it this way, you're taking around 6k in losses from bad decision making but at least when your car is done and its repainted, you have replaced your broken interior pieces and stuff and you do whatever power mods, suspension, aero parts and wheels and whatnot, you say you built your car from the ground up and you know exactly what has been done to your car and you will have more of a bond than most people that buy their car for 20k and then just go single right away.

i think so, a lot of its reliabilty comes down to the buyers buying bad cars in the first place and also buyers neglecting reliability and maintenance which basically means a lot of complaints about reliability come down to the end user, and not unnatural innate magical problems arising from nothing, that some people make it out to be.

I have to agree with you COMPLETELY i know so many people that just spent that *little extra* and shelled out 16-19k on a really solid FD and ended up getting off much cheaper because they havent had any major problems, i spent the little extra 3-4k on what i thought was a solid car and that paid off in the end, i have a good tranny, good clutch, good diff, and a good motor, with good paint and a showroom condition interior. no 3000 dollar tranny to replace, no 4000 dollar turbos to replace, no 5000 dollar engine to rebuild, no 7000 dollar paintjob, no 4000 dollars in endless broken interior pieces to buy, etc(PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW HOW MUCH IT TAKES TO BRING BACK THESE 10K "NEEDS A LITTLE WORK" FDS THEY SEE ON AUTOTRADER, THEY THINK THEY SPEND 10K ON A CAR AND ASSUME WITH 3K IT WILL BE RUNNING LIKE NEW AGAIN, even if its not near to that extent, it happens a lot for example mdpalmer who underestimated the cost of his restoration a little)

i want to sock you in your face because of your igorance.

StealthFox

iTrader: (2)

the man says it like it is, i feel exactly the same way about these cars.

veilsidei

yea all my problem became cause i didnt pay attention to the oil pressure gauge and ran out of oil yeah i feel really stupid now. my cars been in the shop for about 4 months no. just sitting there. i miss thatcar so much i wish i never broke it. well me and my 4 ton foot are gonna have to lay back till i break it in again.