Where's my coolant going?
05-19-11 | 02:22 PM
#27
Well, there's no question anymore, did one last test last night after leaving the coolant system pressurized for a bit. Removed all plugs and cranked the car (with the EGI fuse removed), quite a bit of coolant came out of the front rotor spark plug bores, and this time, it was without a doubt coolant (a good size puddle on the ground).
Thanks to everyone for all of the tips and input! Now to find out if it's an o-ring, or something worse (cracked housing???)
Again, thanks guys!
Justin
Thanks to everyone for all of the tips and input! Now to find out if it's an o-ring, or something worse (cracked housing???)
Again, thanks guys!
Justin
06-03-11 | 12:36 PM
#29
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From: Simi Valley, CA
Little Update
For anyone that's still following along, just a quick update.
I've done a little more testing on the motor before tearing into it, I've attached a few of the highlights (if you can call them that, lol!).
sounds:
http://www.devtechnics.com/temp/front_rotor.mp3
http://www.devtechnics.com/temp/rear_rotor.mp3
vids: (excuse the horrendous video quality, my phones camera was a complete failure since it wasn't bright enough in the garage last night, that's 90psi that the gauge is bouncing to, with the next marking on the gauge being 120)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldGqklEuA7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfC_PLqFEIQ
Did a compression test, max static pressure was about 110psi, when I hold down the pressure release and crank, the gauge was bouncing a touch over 90psi, same on both rotors.
As far as I can tell (with my VERY limited rotary experience!), I've got fair combustion chamber pressure (and I think I was getting an appropriate bounce pattern on the gauge), so I'm hoping that there's been little internal engine damage from whatever it is that's happened.
I've also emptied the coolant from the system, since it could be sitting a few weeks till it's all been disassembled, I've been a little worried about rust etc.
I've ordered up the RA engine remove/replace and 13B overhaul vids to check out this weekend.
Anything else I should do since it might be sitting for a bit till it's been taken apart??
Justin
I've done a little more testing on the motor before tearing into it, I've attached a few of the highlights (if you can call them that, lol!).
sounds:
http://www.devtechnics.com/temp/front_rotor.mp3
http://www.devtechnics.com/temp/rear_rotor.mp3
vids: (excuse the horrendous video quality, my phones camera was a complete failure since it wasn't bright enough in the garage last night, that's 90psi that the gauge is bouncing to, with the next marking on the gauge being 120)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldGqklEuA7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfC_PLqFEIQ
Did a compression test, max static pressure was about 110psi, when I hold down the pressure release and crank, the gauge was bouncing a touch over 90psi, same on both rotors.
As far as I can tell (with my VERY limited rotary experience!), I've got fair combustion chamber pressure (and I think I was getting an appropriate bounce pattern on the gauge), so I'm hoping that there's been little internal engine damage from whatever it is that's happened.
I've also emptied the coolant from the system, since it could be sitting a few weeks till it's all been disassembled, I've been a little worried about rust etc.
I've ordered up the RA engine remove/replace and 13B overhaul vids to check out this weekend.
Anything else I should do since it might be sitting for a bit till it's been taken apart??
Justin
06-13-11 | 01:04 PM
#30
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From: Simi Valley, CA
The fun begins
Started breaking everything down this weekend... This is a totally different experience than my Stang, not nearly as much space in the RX7, and it's definitely quite a bit more complex (at least externally).
Anyway, I've watched the RA remove/replace vids, and they seem really complete, I definitely recommend them to anyone contemplating removing one of these engines.
Spent about 2hrs on it so far, and removed most of the intake tract and coolant hoses etc. Think I'll go ahead and remove the radiator too in order to properly clean up the engine bay (found some surface rust under the battery tray, the drivers side cooling fan and the crossmember that I need to work on). Gonna leave the p/s pump in there, so that I don't have to re-bleed that system, but will end up pulling the A/C, since I need to replace a leaking hose.
Next weekend, I'll pull the wiring harness, and separate the bellhousing from the engine...ya, I work slow, LOL!
Justin
Anyway, I've watched the RA remove/replace vids, and they seem really complete, I definitely recommend them to anyone contemplating removing one of these engines.
Spent about 2hrs on it so far, and removed most of the intake tract and coolant hoses etc. Think I'll go ahead and remove the radiator too in order to properly clean up the engine bay (found some surface rust under the battery tray, the drivers side cooling fan and the crossmember that I need to work on). Gonna leave the p/s pump in there, so that I don't have to re-bleed that system, but will end up pulling the A/C, since I need to replace a leaking hose.
Next weekend, I'll pull the wiring harness, and separate the bellhousing from the engine...ya, I work slow, LOL!
Justin
07-03-11 | 10:42 PM
#31
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From: Simi Valley, CA
And another update:
Finally was able to get the engine pulled, nothing too eventful. I'm using the RA video, and for the most part it's working pretty well, but struggled getting the DP past the trans bellhousing. In the end, I ended up lifting the engine a few inches, and unbolting the downpipe, then pulling the engine without the DP.
No real surprises so far, as you can see in the empty engine bay pic, there's def been some coolant going through the exhaust (the inside of the DP is REALLY white). Also pulling the turbo and exhaust manifold gave me a nice peek inside of the exhaust ports, there was still some coolant in there, and some serious amounts of carbon buildup on the rotors. A quick look at the turbo shows no real end play, though they are leaking oil on both compressor housings, but the manifolds look to be in really good shape. (need a serious cleaning though).
In addition, I now get to fix one of the air-pump bolts which snapped off (really made removing the water pump etc tough), and one of the exhaust manifold bolts had messed up threads, making it really tough to remove. I'm guessing that maybe installing new studs is the right thing to do when I put it all back together.
Anyway, I've got quite a big pile of parts started, and it's coming along, albeit SLOWLY!!! LOL!
Justin
Finally was able to get the engine pulled, nothing too eventful. I'm using the RA video, and for the most part it's working pretty well, but struggled getting the DP past the trans bellhousing. In the end, I ended up lifting the engine a few inches, and unbolting the downpipe, then pulling the engine without the DP.
No real surprises so far, as you can see in the empty engine bay pic, there's def been some coolant going through the exhaust (the inside of the DP is REALLY white). Also pulling the turbo and exhaust manifold gave me a nice peek inside of the exhaust ports, there was still some coolant in there, and some serious amounts of carbon buildup on the rotors. A quick look at the turbo shows no real end play, though they are leaking oil on both compressor housings, but the manifolds look to be in really good shape. (need a serious cleaning though).
In addition, I now get to fix one of the air-pump bolts which snapped off (really made removing the water pump etc tough), and one of the exhaust manifold bolts had messed up threads, making it really tough to remove. I'm guessing that maybe installing new studs is the right thing to do when I put it all back together.
Anyway, I've got quite a big pile of parts started, and it's coming along, albeit SLOWLY!!! LOL!
Justin
07-03-11 | 10:56 PM
#32
You should consider running Evans NPG+. I lost 2 motors due to the dreaded coolant seal. But really, it was microboiling that killed all of my motors. What this means while the car ran at 240F with coolant rated not to boil at 270F, boiling begins after shutdown as the turbo will dump so much heat into the block that you will hear boiling sounds 10 mins after shutdown. This boiling caused my housing to warp over time. After my 2nd engine, I used Evans with a 7psi cap and never heard post-shutdown boiling noises again. No more corrosion inside the engine either.
07-03-11 | 11:14 PM
#33
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From: Simi Valley, CA
You should consider running Evans NPG+. I lost 2 motors due to the dreaded coolant seal. But really, it was microboiling that killed all of my motors. What this means while the car ran at 240F with coolant rated not to boil at 270F, boiling begins after shutdown as the turbo will dump so much heat into the block that you will hear boiling sounds 10 mins after shutdown. This boiling caused my housing to warp over time. After my 2nd engine, I used Evans with a 7psi cap and never heard post-shutdown boiling noises again. No more corrosion inside the engine either.
07-04-11 | 12:07 AM
#34
With a fluidyne, 2.5 qts at $42 per gallon so buy 3 gallons plus one reserve. I have not changed coolant in 8 years and my voltmeter reads 0.018 volt with one probe into the NPG+ and one probe into ground. If your engine is rebuilt, fill with NPG+ and that's it. For my car, I also ran a VW Passat auxiliary electric water pump that pulls coolant from the line coming out under the oil pressure sender and forcing that coolant into the heater core and back into the engine after shut down. do a search under my name with "electric water pump". I have not lost a motor due to housing warpage causing the symptoms you had.
07-04-11 | 10:07 AM
#35
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With a fluidyne, 2.5 qts at $42 per gallon so buy 3 gallons plus one reserve. I have not changed coolant in 8 years and my voltmeter reads 0.018 volt with one probe into the NPG+ and one probe into ground. If your engine is rebuilt, fill with NPG+ and that's it. For my car, I also ran a VW Passat auxiliary electric water pump that pulls coolant from the line coming out under the oil pressure sender and forcing that coolant into the heater core and back into the engine after shut down. do a search under my name with "electric water pump". I have not lost a motor due to housing warpage causing the symptoms you had.
07-12-11 | 01:00 PM
#36
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Update:
I finally got the rest of the intake and rats nest removed this morning, only took an hour or so, but I'm labeling everything, just to try to make it a bit easier to put back together.
So far I've only broken two parts, lol! First was the EGR swtich on the back of the EGR valve, I was pulling the connector from the harness, and when it popped off, I pulled on the EGR switch wire just a bit too hard, and destroyed the switch, so I'm looking for one of those now!
Now, the worst part, while removing the injector diffusers, one of them broke as I was pulling it out of the bore, they are REALLY fragile. Anyway, hopefully I can find replacements for those!
Just waiting for my 2 1/8 socket drive and I can pull the flywheel and start getting to work on the good stuff!
Justin
I finally got the rest of the intake and rats nest removed this morning, only took an hour or so, but I'm labeling everything, just to try to make it a bit easier to put back together.
So far I've only broken two parts, lol! First was the EGR swtich on the back of the EGR valve, I was pulling the connector from the harness, and when it popped off, I pulled on the EGR switch wire just a bit too hard, and destroyed the switch, so I'm looking for one of those now!
Now, the worst part, while removing the injector diffusers, one of them broke as I was pulling it out of the bore, they are REALLY fragile. Anyway, hopefully I can find replacements for those!
Just waiting for my 2 1/8 socket drive and I can pull the flywheel and start getting to work on the good stuff!
Justin
07-19-11 | 01:13 PM
#38
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From: Simi Valley, CA
07-19-11 | 01:39 PM
#39
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Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Simi Valley, CA
Update:
Struggled with a few different things this weekend. First, I did finally receive my 2 1/8 socket and 3/4 to 1/2 adapter. Unfortunately, my impact was right on the edge of being too small to remove the flywheel nut. It took a couple of minutes of the impact, but it did finally remove the nut.
Worse yet was the front hub bolt...OMG, what a bitch. At first, I figured I'd try a big impact, and went to borrow a buddies 900+ft/lb impact wrench. Didn't budge. Then tried a bit of heat on the bolt and hit it with the wrench again, same result. Finally, decided to use a 24" breaker bar, put my jack handle over it for a total of about 6ft of leverage. Unfortunately, even with that, I didn't have enough weight to put on the breaker bar. Went and got my brother-in-law, and with the breaker bar on the verge of breaking, the damn thing finally started to turn. Probably spent about 2hrs messing around with the damn thing.
It was smooth sailing after that, removed the front cover, oil pump etc. Then removed the tension bolts and pulled everything apart. The bearings on this thing are definitely starting to show some copper, so it's def. time for a rebuild, regardless of the coolant leak. The internals of this thing are a complete mess right now, the amount of carbon buildup on the rotors is pretty unbelievable.
Haven't had time to do any real inspection yet (need to clean everything first, I really need to get a parts washer before I go any further). I didn't see any really obvious signs of a coolant o-ring breach, but you'll notice that in one of the photos of the coolant o-ring below, that there's something odd about the o-ring wall on one of the housings (it almost looks raised on the inside of the o-ring wall) it could also just be carbon build up, won't know till I clean everything and do a proper inspection.
Next up...cleaning!!
Justin
Struggled with a few different things this weekend. First, I did finally receive my 2 1/8 socket and 3/4 to 1/2 adapter. Unfortunately, my impact was right on the edge of being too small to remove the flywheel nut. It took a couple of minutes of the impact, but it did finally remove the nut.
Worse yet was the front hub bolt...OMG, what a bitch. At first, I figured I'd try a big impact, and went to borrow a buddies 900+ft/lb impact wrench. Didn't budge. Then tried a bit of heat on the bolt and hit it with the wrench again, same result. Finally, decided to use a 24" breaker bar, put my jack handle over it for a total of about 6ft of leverage. Unfortunately, even with that, I didn't have enough weight to put on the breaker bar. Went and got my brother-in-law, and with the breaker bar on the verge of breaking, the damn thing finally started to turn. Probably spent about 2hrs messing around with the damn thing.
It was smooth sailing after that, removed the front cover, oil pump etc. Then removed the tension bolts and pulled everything apart. The bearings on this thing are definitely starting to show some copper, so it's def. time for a rebuild, regardless of the coolant leak. The internals of this thing are a complete mess right now, the amount of carbon buildup on the rotors is pretty unbelievable.
Haven't had time to do any real inspection yet (need to clean everything first, I really need to get a parts washer before I go any further). I didn't see any really obvious signs of a coolant o-ring breach, but you'll notice that in one of the photos of the coolant o-ring below, that there's something odd about the o-ring wall on one of the housings (it almost looks raised on the inside of the o-ring wall) it could also just be carbon build up, won't know till I clean everything and do a proper inspection.
Next up...cleaning!!
Justin
07-22-11 | 12:23 PM
#40
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From: Simi Valley, CA
Decided to skip getting the whole parts washer thing (can't find an affordable non-water-based washer), and just going to use a local shop and hot tank the rotors, housings (cold tank?), and irons. The rest I'll just use some elbow grease and clean up by hand.
Went ahead and disassembled the rotors and did a quickie cleanup before they go to the hot tank, I'm amazed at how much better they look with just a bit of brake cleaner and a brass brush!
I'm a bit concerned at the appearance of the sides of the rotors, not sure if that's a coating that's come off or something else, does this look normal? Also, there's some slight pitting on the faces of the rotors, I'm assuming that it's not a big deal.
Next up, a bit more cleaning on the rotors (remove carbon from the corner seals, side seal gooves, and apex seal grooves) finish removing all of the bolts etc from the housings and get them to the hot tank!
Justin
Went ahead and disassembled the rotors and did a quickie cleanup before they go to the hot tank, I'm amazed at how much better they look with just a bit of brake cleaner and a brass brush!
I'm a bit concerned at the appearance of the sides of the rotors, not sure if that's a coating that's come off or something else, does this look normal? Also, there's some slight pitting on the faces of the rotors, I'm assuming that it's not a big deal.
Next up, a bit more cleaning on the rotors (remove carbon from the corner seals, side seal gooves, and apex seal grooves) finish removing all of the bolts etc from the housings and get them to the hot tank!
Justin
08-14-11 | 09:05 PM
#41
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Well, plans have changed a bit since the last post. Decided to go ahead and get the end plates cleaned up (Chips Motorsports is going to lap and re-nitride the plates), and I'm also going to go ahead and get Goopy to refinish the housings. I'll be going with the Goopy apex seals as well. Since they're doing most of the refinishing, I won't need the whole hot-tank thing. I will need to find a local place to replace the stationary and rotor bearings though.
I've also cleaned up the big parts so that I could ship them off, and finished cleaning up the front cover today, came out nice! While the housings and end-plates are out getting serviced, I plan on cleaning whatever I can before getting the big parts back for re-assembly.
Justin
I've also cleaned up the big parts so that I could ship them off, and finished cleaning up the front cover today, came out nice! While the housings and end-plates are out getting serviced, I plan on cleaning whatever I can before getting the big parts back for re-assembly.
Justin
09-01-11 | 05:50 PM
#42
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Just got the housings back from Goopy, and they look absolutely awesome! UPS decided to manhandle them a bit, and put a small ding in the oil pan area of one of the housings, I'll have to mill the dented aluminum (about a 0.010 dent) back down flush with the rest of the housing so that the mating surface is nice and flat again, shouldn't be a big deal.
I also put them back on the calibrated plate just to make sure they hadn't been hurt in transit, and they look good and flat. Finally, I remeasured the widths of the housings after the refinishing and they all measured within about 0.0005 of eachother, exactly as before I sent them out.
These have to be about as close to a new set of housings as I could get, and the guys over at Goopy were super helpful, I definitely recommend them.
Now I'm just waiting on the end plates from Chips Motorsports, then it's time to order up gaskets/bearings etc!
Justin
I also put them back on the calibrated plate just to make sure they hadn't been hurt in transit, and they look good and flat. Finally, I remeasured the widths of the housings after the refinishing and they all measured within about 0.0005 of eachother, exactly as before I sent them out.
These have to be about as close to a new set of housings as I could get, and the guys over at Goopy were super helpful, I definitely recommend them.
Now I'm just waiting on the end plates from Chips Motorsports, then it's time to order up gaskets/bearings etc!
Justin
09-19-11 | 01:40 PM
#44
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Time for another update!
Got the side housings back from Chips Motorsports, and they look great, all new freeze plugs/barbs etc, and a really clean surface for the side seals to ride on.
I then went through and checked the specs of the housings, end plates, rotors, and the oil pump, and everything except the oil pump seems to be within the FSM tolerances. The oil pump has about 0.009" of clearance at the lobes, which is quite a ways out of the recommended .001 - .004 spec. So looks like it will be time for a new pump (and chain, which is also quite a ways out of the deflection spec)
After getting all of the measurements done, I went ahead and put a coat of primer/paint on the rotor and side housings. Next up, I need to take a look at the turbo, I get a bad feeling there's too much endplay on it. There's no in-and-out movement, but there's quite a bit of side-to-side movement on the shaft. I haven't been able to find the specs on the turbo tolerances, so I'll need to do a bit more research there. I'll also be ordering up the rebuild kit this week, I'm looking at doing the Atkins 'C' kit at the moment (minus apex seals, which I already have from Goopy)
Justin
Got the side housings back from Chips Motorsports, and they look great, all new freeze plugs/barbs etc, and a really clean surface for the side seals to ride on.
I then went through and checked the specs of the housings, end plates, rotors, and the oil pump, and everything except the oil pump seems to be within the FSM tolerances. The oil pump has about 0.009" of clearance at the lobes, which is quite a ways out of the recommended .001 - .004 spec. So looks like it will be time for a new pump (and chain, which is also quite a ways out of the deflection spec)
After getting all of the measurements done, I went ahead and put a coat of primer/paint on the rotor and side housings. Next up, I need to take a look at the turbo, I get a bad feeling there's too much endplay on it. There's no in-and-out movement, but there's quite a bit of side-to-side movement on the shaft. I haven't been able to find the specs on the turbo tolerances, so I'll need to do a bit more research there. I'll also be ordering up the rebuild kit this week, I'm looking at doing the Atkins 'C' kit at the moment (minus apex seals, which I already have from Goopy)
Justin
10-09-11 | 10:52 PM
#46
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Update:
It's like XMAS!!!Got my Atkins 'C' kit!!! I added a few things (bearings, timing chain, thrust bearings, oil pump). Finished chasing all the bolt holes out (what a PITA finding a 10x1mm thread chaser!!). Got Tri-Point to press the new bearings in for me, and today spent a couple of hours clearancing side seals. I wish I was brave enough to try the Aaron Cake method and just grind them with the dremel, but didn't trust myself so just lapped them with sandpaper. Ended up running about 0.003" clearance on the side seals. I have one more rotor to do, then the side seals will be done, and I can begin assembly of the shortblock!
Justin
It's like XMAS!!!Got my Atkins 'C' kit!!! I added a few things (bearings, timing chain, thrust bearings, oil pump). Finished chasing all the bolt holes out (what a PITA finding a 10x1mm thread chaser!!). Got Tri-Point to press the new bearings in for me, and today spent a couple of hours clearancing side seals. I wish I was brave enough to try the Aaron Cake method and just grind them with the dremel, but didn't trust myself so just lapped them with sandpaper. Ended up running about 0.003" clearance on the side seals. I have one more rotor to do, then the side seals will be done, and I can begin assembly of the shortblock!
Justin
10-10-11 | 07:59 AM
#47
Well, there's no question anymore, did one last test last night after leaving the coolant system pressurized for a bit. Removed all plugs and cranked the car (with the EGI fuse removed), quite a bit of coolant came out of the front rotor spark plug bores, and this time, it was without a doubt coolant (a good size puddle on the ground).
Thanks to everyone for all of the tips and input! Now to find out if it's an o-ring, or something worse (cracked housing???)
Again, thanks guys!
Justin
Thanks to everyone for all of the tips and input! Now to find out if it's an o-ring, or something worse (cracked housing???)
Again, thanks guys!
Justin
10-10-11 | 12:09 PM
#48
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Realized this morning I really needed a way to organize the side seals while I was working on the rotors, didn't want to spend the big bucks on the official Mazda box, so put an old cigar box to good use...
Justin
11-01-11 | 05:45 PM
#49
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Ok, latest update. Finished getting the side seals fitted, and final assembly of the rotors completed, and this weekend finished up assembly of the "short block". The good news is that it's all assembled, the eshaft turns really smoothly and there's no binding or anything like that. I'm slightly worried that I heard one rotor making good compression sounds, but didn't hear anything from the other. It wasn't a great test, since I was turning the shaft very slowly (want to set endplay first), but definitely something that I'll need to look into before going too much further.
Went to try and do a pressure test on the coolant seals this morning (I bought the atkins tester), and found that for some reason the tester would not seal well to the water inlet (I heard air escaping right near the tool, a bit of soapy water confirmed that it was indeed leaking right at the tester to front plate mating surface.) I'll need to figure out what to do to get the tool to seal correctly before going on, but as soon as that's done, I should be on to the front cover assembly!
Justin
Went to try and do a pressure test on the coolant seals this morning (I bought the atkins tester), and found that for some reason the tester would not seal well to the water inlet (I heard air escaping right near the tool, a bit of soapy water confirmed that it was indeed leaking right at the tester to front plate mating surface.) I'll need to figure out what to do to get the tool to seal correctly before going on, but as soon as that's done, I should be on to the front cover assembly!
Justin
