So long as the gaps are sealed around the radiator etc. I'd love to see real results. Which third party is going to do the testing and verify things are sealed up etc.? It would be pretty silly for you to do it. Also which version of the IC will be used? It changed over the years.

 

Kevin:

Do you mean by sealing the radiator on the sides with your ASP Large installed? Do the shields come with your IC kit? I am testing the kits as they are delivered. Even with the radiator completely sealed on the SMIC, it's not going to help the air temp.

With your arguments in the past, you stated that the radiator will not get sufficent air with the vmount kit installed that the water temp will be higher. I stated that with the VMIC installed, you will get the same water temp or sometimes better but always colder air temp under any kind of condition. That's what I am trying to prove. I am at a disadvantage since my regular IC core is only 15"x10.85"x 2.87". Your ASP large IC core is about 17"x12"x3.5"? If I really want to conduct unfair testing, I probalby will choose your medium IC which has similar core size as the regular Vmount or use my monster vmount vs. your ASP large.

I do not know what ASP/M2 IC will be on the cars. Customers will bring their car with the M2 or ASP IC already installed. I will post photos of their setup and you can tell me what version they have. Or if you want, you can send your latest IC for testing. If you have a friend in Bay Area, you can also ask him to come down and intall it on customer's car at the shop and he can also make sure the ASP/M2 IC are installed correctly on the cars customers bring. I do not mind at all.

When testing, a well-known member will be the ref to ensure there is no foul play. I am thinking about Rynberg. He is well known on the forum and with non-biased opinions. He personally has a PFS SMIC on his car and he has been interested in seeing how Vmount performs vs. SMIC. If you have other suggestion, let me know.

As for how we are going to test the cars, you can share your opinions. I want to get it done in a controlled enviroment with the only variable being VMIC vs SMIC. It will be done as fair as possible so we can just end the bickering here. No BS, no theories, just straight real world results. I also want to test out more than 1 car, as close to 5 as possible to minimize the margin of error.


Chuck

 

There are many IC core choices out there and most of them come flow tested from the factory. I don't know the current flow rate of the ASP Large. But the regular vmount IC core flows 935 CFM at 15 psi and the monster one flows 1400 CFM at 15 psi. All the specs are given by IC manufacturer.

I did not use the bigger size for the reglar vmount because you will need to relocate the battery in the back. I want to get it to fit with the mini-battery.

I can convert the ASP large to Vmount by cutting off the end tanks just using the core and make the new end tanks and piping from there. I gotta to make it on the car. I don't plan to do the modification other than this time. There is too much work.

Kevin makes the best and biggest SMIC on the market, there is no doubt. Even as of today, there isn't one other company in the US or in Japan makes the same size of SMIC as he does. I never doubt his SMIC being the best SMIC. But VMIC might be a better solution on cooling.

As for people losing money on radiator for going vmount, we modify customer's radiator if you can send it in. But it has to be a Koyo. If you send in your own Koyo, you can knock $300 off the vmount price.

Chuck

 

chuck, i'll see if i can't get an extra copy, i've got a few for myself, i'll try and email you some pics if i ever get my computer up and running agian

talk to you soon,

harrison

 

OMFGWTFBBQHi2ULOLROFLMAO!!!11!!11!!oneOne!!!eleven


that's the exact opposite of what u just said that started all the crap on the other thread. YOU couldn't keep an open mind until results are in before you started spewing about how YOU know YOURS will work best. How suddenly physics breaks all rules in YOUR alternate reality where heat soaks comes from radiator to motor. Give me a ******* break! You try to act like some ******* rotary martyr....oh, man...my sides are hurting.

Good on u for being able to sell a ton of products and keeping some of the customers happy and loyal...there's all kinds. But stop acting like you're doing ppl favours. It's as everyone tells me...if it ain't stuff Chuck's selling, he'll argue till he's blue in the face with you.

that's all i'm gonna add to your "sales thread". hope you make a ton of money out of it.

 

Did I go to your thread and bother you again?

I simply stated my opinion on your IC placement and you wanted to blow it up like I was the worst guy there is, for what?

I was not trying to sell you anything as I stated many times already. Other people on the same thread can understand I am not trying to sell you anything. You already made yours. Did I say anything such as you should buy mine, yours does not work or I simply suggest you to place the IC on the top so your setup can work its best by a very simple concept of radiator blowing hot air vs. cooler air blowing onto the motor, which one will reduce the chance of heat soak? During hot summer time, you want to use blow dryer to cool you down or you want to use a A/C? This has nothing to do with open mind. This is a known fact. Blowing the hot air into your engine bay will increase heat soak.

Anyway, this thread has nothing to do with you. It's simply VMIC vs SMIC. Enjoy your vmount and have a nice day. If you have any technical insight to share, please do. If not, please stay away.

I am going to make so much money because all the profit goes to the charity. Again, please read the whole thing before you jump into conclusion.

Did I jump to other people's custom vmount threads simply because they made it themselves and tell them to buy mine? Never once.

Find one quote I wrote that I told you to buy mine and stop making yours. You won't find it because I never did.

Next time, calm down and read the whole thing. It seems like you are still mad.

Chuck

 

I know how the hell is this supposed to help us? I personally don't see why we should care, unless you have thrown down $2000 for one of these and want bragging rights. Otherwise this has no purpose other for both of you too make more money off of us. This is BS, I know that both of these gentleman are going to do what's in THEIR best interest, that's why they knock every intercooler thread if it ain't theirs. Just like when I showed Kevin the inside of my XSpower intercooler, after bashing everything made in Asia and then degrading the core, stated that it was worth the money, but an older core. Yeah worth not paying $2000 more and getting close to or the same results as the ASP/M2 or any other stock mount. Its all marketing, and its all BS. Kevin jumps on every intercooler thread, not just Chuck's. I respect Chuck for what he is doing, prove your product is better, but I just don't see how either one of you are going to attract more perspective clients with all the bias? so maybe it is good we can finally see some results, that way all of you that threw that kind of cash, can feel vindicated.

 

There are a lot of people wondering which one really works better because this debate has been going on for a couple of years.

I am the one who is spending all the money and energy organizing this. It might not benefit you in any way since you already got the XS Power IC but I am doing this for people who care and people who want to know.

Chuck

 

saxyman990, I think your view/perspective was limited at best. Try being harrassed and pestered by someone who offers no real proof, attacking your products and credibility. It's INFURIATING. And to have to deal w/ it as long as Chuck has... if you're asking him to do nothing about it, you must like insensitive inhuman emotionless ppl, cuz that's what you're asking of him. I'm actually impressed Chuck's held up this long. I woulda done this LOOONG ago. And the worst part is, Kevin's story keeps on changing. First it was "it doesn't work," then it was "it doesn't work as well," then it's "no substantial improvement," and now he wants to make ADDITIONAL PARTS for the IC and duct/seal it off? What the?!?! Did Kevin sell the kit as such (w/ the ducting)?? I didn't think so. Talk about reaching out to hold on to ANYTHING...and it's obvious to everyone.

Oh, and I also think what you said to Chuck could have easily been PMed to him, as it really had no place in the thread. But that's just my opinion (didn't see it as being very relevant... just a personal comment).

As for me, hmm...I'm still trying to figure out where's the proof behind Kevin's accussations? He keeps on saying Chuck's physics is wrong and messed up, but he's offered up no evidence to back up his claims? (nor has anyone else for that matter)?

Also, I'm still wondering how ppl such as Neofreak (don't know you, so nothing personal), but how do you feel about every single Japanese company out there that aren't called RE Amemiya, C-West, or Mazdaspeed? I don't think ANY of the other companies came up w/ their own test-proven products or designs other than those three (except very very few examples). All the GT spoilers are based on RE Amemiya's and C-West's. Feed copied the Greddy elbow. HKS copied the Knightsports V-mount. BNR copied the Knightsports/Border twins. Some of these were blatant copying, while others were the way the world works: buy your competitor's product, study it, find it's shortcomings/room for improvement, modify it to make it better, and sell it as your own, modified, and better product. That's how the world WORKS. To be mad at Chuck for doing that is being mad at one out of a million, just out of convenience. It's a cheap shot if you ask me.

In addition, are you guys boycotting every other company in the world for taking an existing design, improving it, and selling it as their own? Cuz that's what your posts are insinuating. Also, it's a FACT that Chuck's parts - across the board - are of the finest quality, with the best design. So what if he's not the greatest inventor; he sure knows how to improve an already-existing concept, and that's what being business-savvy is all about. We don't give kudos to the person who reinvents the wheel; we give kudos who takes the wheel and makes it even BETTER. Heck, even in his body parts are better than the originals, such as better fitment, and even better material (urethane, etc).

I'd really like to see these questions answered.

~Ramy

 

True, but you could gain that much more by creating contoured end tanks, the cost justification probably isn't there, due to the fact that it would require special tooling and extra welding. It's probably only a 2-5% improvement, but it would be an improvement. Either way I will probably be making my own. I would say good luck on you performance comparison test, but I already know your going to win.

 

If you are talking about the contoured end tanks such as the cast ones, sorry, it can't be done. The initial cost of making cast end tanks are too high and I simply do not sell enough to justify the cost. Since I never made one like that, I can't tell you how much the improvement there is going to be. It might be too small to be measured. But the cores I am using all have very low pressure drop. The monster vmount IC core has pressure drop of 0.25 psi at 15 psi. I lost the efficency map for the small one. I think it's around 0.6 psi at 15 psi. If you can make your own by yourself, not hiring anyone, you can definitely save money. A lot of the cost goes to the labor.

Chuck

 

OK..i'm a ******* liar since I AM RESPONDING TO THIS THREAD

hahahahahaha...YOUR thread...didn't know sponsoring entitles you to thread ownership. BTW, mebbe kev was right about ur english skills...it wasn't MY thread u decided to go pissing into...thx for trying anyhoo.

u stated an opinion...fine and dandy...others did too...that didn't bother me. it's your pompous attitude that you perpetuating on how YOU've done all the research and YOU know all the answers and other designs JUST WON"T WORK. All i've said was, let me do it this way and post the results. But no...somehow yours is like the second coming of VMIC design. You're not the worst guy...just just major idiot who can't see the **** he stepping in.

there you go again...jeebus. OK...in any of your cars (or ur customers)...swap the rad around and post some readings. ambient air temp, intake temp, water temp (idle and in motion), boost setting, pressure drop, temp at rear of cores, temp on motor. If it shows that the concepting i'm trying is gonna cause noticeable lag, higher temps, more heat soak, any of your claims that it's inferior, I'll post a huge apology and admit that i was the fool to get upset at the almighty dr. nick...er...chuck.


cooler air? haha...what planet do u live on? it's a ******* heat exchanger...it exchanges the compressed air's heat to atmosphere. the only way u would have cold air is if your core DOESN'T WORK! lmao. the temp diff b/w rad and ic out may be measurable but the effect on the motor is not gonna make a big diff. and u seem to think that somehow the air exiting the cores in a conventional VMIC design seem to split to 2 different locations. last i checked, they both go to the engine bay. must be nice to have non-smoking sections in your world...the smoke prolly stops dead at the dividing line in your restaurants. lol....

hey...u said in the other thread that it's a public forum and u can form an opinion aloud. so i'll do the same...I think chuckaloos is a tard and is trying to drum up sympathy....just a theory that i'm thinking aloud...in a public forum.

i'm so damn curious now...i should see if the CWR works as well as the VMIC. seems to be cold on the exit side just like u claimed on the vmic. I KNOW that the one i have is cold to touch on the exit side...so I guess that the "cooler air" that u speak of must not work up in Canada, eh?

aw...ur poor martyr. ppl should offer up their daughters to bear your offsprings....we all could use more good souls like you. not to mention all those little chucks can work at offshore factories making more replicas (for the business you're selling).


no but u did jump into other ppl's thread telling them they are wrong when you've never tried it (or at least posted findings to back it up). it's just so you to double talk about how ur customers are happy and that should substantiate ur claims. nice try. they are two separate items...ur stuff may work and the customers can certainly be happy about that (after all that's what they paid for)...but to be so cavalier and wander into the thread under the guise of "offering help" is just a little too much for this "old fart" to take.

yeah, i can't read...poor me. mebbe u should apportion some of that charity to help me get a Speak-n-Spell.

You offer nuthing technical and get to spout off...why can't others? are u untouchable? what a ****.

ok...now i promise i won't respond anymore...no point...even if u make fun of my mother...hahaha....

i feel so special being able to "chat" with such a deified personality like u. :rolleyes"

 

So his engine brace, hood dampers, are all improved upon, not mearly color changes?

No, it's your opinion. I've seen the real Knightsports kit in person, the real HKS kit in person, sure, they're both V-mounts but they're different enough from each other and you can see where they were each trying to be better than each other.

I give props to those companies (all of the ones you've mentioned, in fact) who go out, RACE, develop their products and bring them to market. If chuck had designed his own bumper, sure, this wouldn't even be an issue. If he did, it'd be funny if someone knocked it off though, and ooo made it urethane! Afterall, that's "BETTER".

 

I'm not going to try and quote Kevin or Chuck, but I agree with Kevin. I highly doubt you'll really notice a diffrence between the two.

For starters, i'd like to know the intercooler size of both the regular VMIC, and the SMIC.

Everyone seems to think that because the intercooler sits above the radiator in the SMIC setup, that it'll heat soak. Well, doesn't the intercooler still sit above the radiator in a VMIC setup? Yes.

So now you might say, well the hot air is sucked from the back of the radiator, so there's no issues. Well, doesn't the same fans suck the same hot out from the bottom of the radiator in a SMIC setup? Yes.

Ok, so now you might want to argue that there's more air flowing to the intercooler in a VMIC setup because there's no duct involved. Well, as Bell and many others have stated, a 1/4 of the total surface area is what's recommended when using a duct, which Kevins SMIC has.

Right, ok, so lets move on. Your probably now going to say/think that the radiator gets more air because the duct isn't blocking the on coming air to the radiator. Well, in a VMIC, lets just say the on coming air is split in 2. Half going to the radiator, half going to the intercooler. Well, in a SMIC setup, the radiator will get 3/4 of the oncoming air, because the duct for the intercooler only takes up 1/4 of the surface area.

The next argument is that hot air from the intercooler goes straight to the motor, heat soaking the intake manifold. Well, where the hell does the hot air go from the intercooler in a VMIC setup? The same damn place.

Now, the most famous argument, is that an aftermarket hood will help the VMIC. Well an aftermarket hood will help the SMIC just as much.

So, unless i'm just totally stupid, I don't see how the VMIC is really going to help things.

-Alex

 

So, unless i'm just totally stupid, I don't see how the VMIC is really going to help things.
-Alex

 

QUOTE=neofreak

So his engine brace, hood dampers, are all improved upon, not mearly color changes?

You are really out of your mind! I made the hood damper and engine brace damper from scratch. Show me which company I copied those from. You just can't quit, can you?

No, it's your opinion. I've seen the real Knightsports kit in person, the real HKS kit in person, sure, they're both V-mounts but they're different enough from each other and you can see where they were each trying to be better than each other.

How about RE-A vs KS. Dream Works vs KS. Have you seen those? Do they all copied RE-A?

I give props to those companies (all of the ones you've mentioned, in fact) who go out, RACE, develop their products and bring them to market. If chuck had designed his own bumper, sure, this wouldn't even be an issue. If he did, it'd be funny if someone knocked it off though, and ooo made it urethane! Afterall, that's "BETTER"

I don't race but I sponsor racers such as Calvin Wan and Falken Tire FD. They all use my prodcuts for national competitons and many other customers use my products for competition. I have no time to race because I have to deal with this kind of crap.

 

TT rex 7

air from the VMOUNT radiator does not flow upward to the intercooler.

a vmount will heat soak at a stop light like other intercoolers, but nothing like a stock mount while racing.

now if you think back about 6 years ago you will remember that alot of people who would road race had heat soak problems. most turbo cars do after so many track laps. the large CWC was made because of the heat soak problems and it helped alot, but would still heat soak some after awhile. i would think the ASP would suffer from similar circumstances.

 

I could be wrong (please correct me if I am), but Chuck's ETB is the one one I've seen that actually dampens, and isn't a solid unyielding rod. The hood dampers, I don't know, but who else offers ones in diff strength - one for the stock hood, and one for CF lightweight hoods? But I think you see my point as well (even if you don't want to admit it). His toe links and trailing arms are the best, and they're improvements over the M2's etc.

Are you saying that Chuck's V-mount is EXACTLY the same as the Knightsports or HKS? I can tell you that I know for a FACT that the entire setup (IC + radiator) are different (not each, but point is, as a whole, there are differences...and they're improvements). Plus, IIRC, the other units didn't make clearance for the A/C unit, did they?

Yea it would be funny/ironic, but again, I think you're picking single examples. Many ppl have attested to the crappy fitment of several genuine parts. There's also the question of supply and demand. If there's a big enough demand for parts non-existant here, because the Japanese companies don't think we're a big enough market for them to distribute to here, or the shipping costs are too high, hey, I think Chuck's smart for taking those products, making his copy here and providing them to US customers. He's filling a gap in a fairly large market often overlooked by foreign companies.

 

It still flows up in a VMIC setup, the air just flows up at a more severe angle in a SMIC setup. However, all this does is slow down the air. It, in no way, reduces how much air actually flows to the intercooler. Keep in mind that the air is being forced into the duct, and through the radiator. So if the duct slows down the air, that problem will be eliminated at speed. I highly doubt intercoolers and radiators flow enough air to not create any back pressure at speed.

I'd say there's alot more track data on the SMIC setup, than on the VMIC. I have yet to see any hardcore data on the VMIC from Chuck on the track. I'm sure the info is somewhere, I just havn't seen it. Again, i'd like to know the size of the regular VMIC intercooler, along with the SMIC.

I still doubt that the VMIC setup won't have heat soak problems. No matter how the intercooler/radiator are setup, they'll still receive the same amount of air from the stock bumper. Period. They just receive it in 2 diffrent ways. Do I think that the VMIC setup will have reduced temps by a couple degrees? Yes, but a couple degrees is about it.

Keep in mind alot of people never had the duct fully sealed to the intercooler. It's a well known fact that a fully sealed setup will result in better performance. Search around on http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/index.html You'll see several write up's about that issue alone.

-Alex

Edit: Keep in mind, testing of both setups must be done in the same car, with the same variables. This includes fresh coolant in both setups, with both being the same type/brand/mixture. They must also be tested with the exact same temps, and in the exact same locations. Also, as already stated, the car must retain the stock front bumper, stock hood, etc.

 

oh i agree a VMOUNT will heat soak of course, but not right away.

 

hahahahahaha...YOUR thread...didn't know sponsoring entitles you to thread ownership. BTW, mebbe kev was right about ur english skills...it wasn't MY thread u decided to go pissing into...thx for trying anyhoo.

Good. My English skill sucks. Thanks for letting me know.


u stated an opinion...fine and dandy...others did too...that didn't bother me. it's your pompous attitude that you perpetuating on how YOU've done all the research and YOU know all the answers and other designs JUST WON"T WORK. All i've said was, let me do it this way and post the results. But no...somehow yours is like the second coming of VMIC design. You're not the worst guy...just just major idiot who can't see the **** he stepping in.

OK, I am an idiot.


cooler air? haha...what planet do u live on? it's a ******* heat exchanger...it exchanges the compressed air's heat to atmosphere. the only way u would have cold air is if your core DOESN'T WORK! lmao. the temp diff b/w rad and ic out may be measurable but the effect on the motor is not gonna make a big diff. and u seem to think that somehow the air exiting the cores in a conventional VMIC design seem to split to 2 different locations. last i checked, they both go to the engine bay. must be nice to have non-smoking sections in your world...the smoke prolly stops dead at the dividing line in your restaurants. lol....

Water has higher specific heat capacity than air. Air existing the IC core will have lower temp vs air existing the radiator In your setup, the air existing IC goes to the bottom of the car, not into the engine bay. You even have a venting hole at the bottom of your undertray for that purpose. So I have no idea what you are trying to proof.


i'm so damn curious now...i should see if the CWR works as well as the VMIC. seems to be cold on the exit side just like u claimed on the vmic. I KNOW that the one i have is cold to touch on the exit side...so I guess that the "cooler air" that u speak of must not work up in Canada, eh?


I think you are missing my points. You also have radiator heat blasting into the engine bay in SMIC setup.


aw...ur poor martyr. ppl should offer up their daughters to bear your offsprings....we all could use more good souls like you. not to mention all those little chucks can work at offshore factories making more replicas (for the business you're selling).

Nice personal attack. Nothing better to say but personal attack. Why is everyone who thinks of himself highly educated but does this?? Especially those who laugh at others' language skill. If your language skill is so good, you should have something more meaningful to say.


no but u did jump into other ppl's thread telling them they are wrong when you've never tried it (or at least posted findings to back it up). it's just so you to double talk about how ur customers are happy and that should substantiate ur claims. nice try. they are two separate items...ur stuff may work and the customers can certainly be happy about that (after all that's what they paid for)...but to be so cavalier and wander into the thread under the guise of "offering help" is just a little too much for this "old fart" to take.

I guess one bad apple can ruin the whole damn bunch. I only went to "that" thread. Never into other people's custom vmount threads, insulting them and tell them they should just buy mine.


ok...now i promise i won't respond anymore...no point...even if u make fun of my mother...hahaha....

I won't make fun of your mother. As for now, I have never attacked you in an unprofessinal way by calling you names and stuff. I will not lower myself to your level.

 

Alex, we don't need any speculation and argument here. Just let the testing be done. Results speak for itself. There are already people posting that by swapping from SMIC to VMIC, the air temp is cooler. So now you know why I have to do this test. Even with customer's testimony, there are still unbelievers.

If you want to read about vmout theories, just read all the vmount IC threads I have posted. I don't feel like typing all of them again. There are some misconceptions you have. I have worked the whole day and too tired to type. It's Friday! Go have some fun!



Chuck

 

You, myself, along with everyone else knows that's not testing. I could switch to 5 diffrent intercooler/radiator setups, and they'll all give diffrent readings. It could be a diffrent mixture of coolant, diffrent brand, or simply new coolant. Also keep in mind, the results from switching might be on a cooler day. There's just to many variables for any of that to mean ****. Period.

I understand why you want to do this, you should have just handled it in a diffrent way. Going public like this isn't the answer. You won't have anymore beleivers after this little test your doing. All info is based from your shop. The only true way to do this is to have some independent company that both you and Kevin agree on do the testing.

Now, if I understood correctly from the convo between you and Kevin in this thread, your closing up shop. If that's true, then to me that says your just trying to get rid of your stock. You know the diffrence in temps isn't by much, but there is a slight diffrence. That slight diffrence keeps you from having to pay out, because, in fact, your setup cools a few degrees better. Nice scheme! However, if I misunderstood, then neglect this comment(s).

Anywho, your right, it's Friday! I think I will go have some fun. As for this thread, I think there's enough info here for everyone to make the decision on the subject, so i'll probably just leave it as is. No reason for me to continue.

-Alex

 

You, myself, along with everyone else knows that's not testing. I could switch to 5 diffrent intercooler/radiator setups, and they'll all give diffrent readings. It could be a diffrent mixture of coolant, diffrent brand, or simply new coolant. Also keep in mind, the results from switching might be on a cooler day. There's just to many variables for any of that to mean ****. Period.

I already said I am going to do this in a best controlled environment. With the same ambient temp, same coolant, etc. Water temp is the least thing I worry about. The main plus of going vmount is that it will offer cooler air temp and significatnt enough to be measured. I am not talking about 1-2 degree C.

I understand why you want to do this, you should have just handled it in a diffrent way. Going public like this isn't the answer. You won't have anymore beleivers after this little test your doing. All info is based from your shop. The only true way to do this is to have some independent company that both you and Kevin agree on do the testing.

Did you see my reply to Kevin? Please read. I am open to suggestions on how to get the test done in a fair way.


Now, if I understood correctly from the convo between you and Kevin in this thread, your closing up shop. If that's true, then to me that says your just trying to get rid of your stock.

No, I do not keep vmounts in stock. You are welcome to send anyone you know down here and check. I have those made to order.

You know the diffrence in temps isn't by much, but there is a slight diffrence.

We will find out and why do you keep jumping into conclusion?

That slight diffrence keeps you from having to pay out, because, in fact, your setup cools a few degrees better. Nice scheme!

Nice Scheme? I do not keep vmounts in stock. Any profit or if there is any from the this will be going to a charity.

However, if I misunderstood, then neglect this comment(s).

I don't think you misunderstood anything. You are making assumptions. If you have never dealt with me or know me as a person, do not pass on judgements.

-Alex

 

Ok, I can't help it. I guess this will be my Friday night entertainment! (Maybe I just don't have a life?! )

I was speaking of other customer results from switching to your VMIC, not the upcoming test.

Yes, I read it all. The whole point was keep this between you and him, and go public with the results, not the battle. Either way, as long as you keep the testing out of your hands, along with Kevins, most should beleive the results. There's nothing else you can do past that point. However, no matter what you do, there's still going to be people that won't beleive. Your test isn't going to change that.

Just because you don't keep completed setups in stock, doesn't mean you don't have all the supplies to make them in stock. Either way, I said to neglect my comment if you was in fact not closing up shop. However, you chose not to.

I didn't jump to a conclusion, I stated my oppinion. Without the test at hand, that's all there is to do. However, it's not like it's based off the sky being blue. It's based off other tests that have been done with various setups. The results are always small. There's no win all situation. All setups have their benefits. Price, performance, diffrence in performance, etc. all play a role in what people buy.

Again, I stated to neglect the comment being made if you going out of business isn't true. Either way, I stated what I felt it looked like. Wether what I said is true or not doesn't matter. Were all entitled to our oppinion based off your current actions. I havn't been the only one to comment on what I beleive your real plan is. If you would have kept this personal, and not gone public like this, just about everone that commented on what they beleive your true plan is wouldn't have said a word. By keeping it between you and Kevin, and you posting the results, it would have simply looked like tested data. Nothing more, nothing less.

I didn't pass judgement. I didn't say you are an evil person or anything. Hell, I even stated that i'm sure your a nice guy. That doesn't hide the fact that many nice men have done bad schemes. Wether you wan't to beleive I misunderstood you going out of business or not is up to you. Your only hurting yourself with this thread Chuck.

-Alex