VIR Track Weekend,Get your FD on track and drive it the way it was suppose to be!
05-23-12 | 01:21 PM
#226
It's not out of norm. I usually see about 99C to 100C tops, but I've got a lot less motor.
Are you still running without an undertray / ducting? Also it's my understanding that 105c isn't dangerous or abnormal for a car on the track. 
05-23-12 | 01:23 PM
#227
FYI the Shine undertray is NOT a replacement for the stock undertray or proper radiator ducting. It is simply an AERODYNAMIC piece meant to flatten out the underside of the car (front area).
I also have the shine three piece undertray installed on my car. However it is used with dedicated radiator ducting. My car never saw over 88/89C all weekend.
If you did not have a stock undertray installed when you tested the shine undertray that would definitely increase temps as there is a huge gap under the radiator. And assuming you tested it again with no undertray after, you are probably seeing some situation where the car is pulling air from the bottom instead of through the mouth of the bumper like it should. That FMIC does not help matters either.
I also have the shine three piece undertray installed on my car. However it is used with dedicated radiator ducting. My car never saw over 88/89C all weekend.
If you did not have a stock undertray installed when you tested the shine undertray that would definitely increase temps as there is a huge gap under the radiator. And assuming you tested it again with no undertray after, you are probably seeing some situation where the car is pulling air from the bottom instead of through the mouth of the bumper like it should. That FMIC does not help matters either.
05-23-12 | 02:59 PM
#228
Guys, don't want to turn this into a undertray thread. Thanks for all of the helpful advice and I will look into fixing the issue. I've never (Theorie) said my car defies the law of aerodynamics so please stop with those remarks as they are unwanted.
As for the constructive advice, very good ideas. As I recall (and it's been a few years) one of my issues with a stock under tray is the Pettit subframe on the car interferes with installing a 99 spec unit. I don't have the time to deal with the issue this week but will get the car over to Steve Osley's so we can jack it up and assess how to fix the problem. I've got some dedicated ducting under there now but clearly not enough and it's not correct. I'll fix this and see what's up then with temps.
As Pete points out, I've also got 1/3 extra motor in there so that's going to affect temps also but my goal is to get it to under 100C on the track. I am also guessing the 10 AFR readings put some heat into the equation so we will tune that out too.
Now back to the VIR thread.
As for the constructive advice, very good ideas. As I recall (and it's been a few years) one of my issues with a stock under tray is the Pettit subframe on the car interferes with installing a 99 spec unit. I don't have the time to deal with the issue this week but will get the car over to Steve Osley's so we can jack it up and assess how to fix the problem. I've got some dedicated ducting under there now but clearly not enough and it's not correct. I'll fix this and see what's up then with temps.
As Pete points out, I've also got 1/3 extra motor in there so that's going to affect temps also but my goal is to get it to under 100C on the track. I am also guessing the 10 AFR readings put some heat into the equation so we will tune that out too.
Now back to the VIR thread.
05-23-12 | 03:31 PM
#229
Oh, I forgot that you get to dictate the topics of discussion and who is allowed to post what/where.
I distinctly remember you saying:
I too am the exception to the rule. With an undertray on my car, I run 7-10*C HOTTER than with it off the car. 3 rotor, FMIC, large oil coolers, with every sealed up front, the car runs no hotter than 93*C cruising and cools right down to 90*C when stopped in traffic.
WITH the undertray on, however, temps shoot up when cruising to around 100*C and are around 93*C when stopped. Just did the testing last week at Kilo in Orlando. Air temps outside were around 93*F and it was humid as hell but this gave me a worst case scenario to test the two setups. I was very surprised the undertray made the temps go up that much. So I ditched it and it is sitting now at Kilo. We decided to revisit this some later time but for now, no undertray for me.
Like I said, your claim makes absolutely no sense. There is no way a properly setup w/ undertray would result in decreased cooling performance. The same laws of physics apply to all of our cars, so like I said, your car is not "an exception". 
How is talking about your "cooling problems" (the reason you stated for "not being able to drive over 100mph") not "on topic" when you're the one who brought up the subject? I was only offering some advice. I even drew you a pretty diagram in my last post
My next question is regarding your "afr problem", about which, you state:
Maybe you can explain your reasoning to me. It's my understanding that "low 10s" is a very rich ratio, and a richer ratio means there is MORE unburnt fuel coming out of the motor, meaning not all of the potential energy was released in combustion.
Even wikipedia knows...
Is your car once again defying the laws of physics!?
I distinctly remember you saying:
before ducting, my car idled in traffic around 90* on average, but once i get on the highway cruising around 90mph, i would get up to 110*-112* (on my PFC, factory temp guage stays middle)....as soon as i pull off the highway, it cools back down to 90*ish.
so my cooling system works well, but i figured that the radiator just wasnt getting proper airflow at higher speeds. [...] i had to slap [some ducting] together quick just to see if it made a difference. [...] [i made] a rough duct that guides air from the front intake to the radiator (no airflow comes from underneath at all now). [...] im amazed at the difference.
the car still idles around 88-90*....highest ive seen on the hottest day was 91* sitting in traffic. on the highway, the temps now STAY at 89-90* max!!! even in the middle of the day. thats a 20* difference with a leaking crappy duct!
so my cooling system works well, but i figured that the radiator just wasnt getting proper airflow at higher speeds. [...] i had to slap [some ducting] together quick just to see if it made a difference. [...] [i made] a rough duct that guides air from the front intake to the radiator (no airflow comes from underneath at all now). [...] im amazed at the difference.
the car still idles around 88-90*....highest ive seen on the hottest day was 91* sitting in traffic. on the highway, the temps now STAY at 89-90* max!!! even in the middle of the day. thats a 20* difference with a leaking crappy duct!
I too am the exception to the rule. With an undertray on my car, I run 7-10*C HOTTER than with it off the car. 3 rotor, FMIC, large oil coolers, with every sealed up front, the car runs no hotter than 93*C cruising and cools right down to 90*C when stopped in traffic.
WITH the undertray on, however, temps shoot up when cruising to around 100*C and are around 93*C when stopped. Just did the testing last week at Kilo in Orlando. Air temps outside were around 93*F and it was humid as hell but this gave me a worst case scenario to test the two setups. I was very surprised the undertray made the temps go up that much. So I ditched it and it is sitting now at Kilo. We decided to revisit this some later time but for now, no undertray for me.
How is talking about your "cooling problems" (the reason you stated for "not being able to drive over 100mph") not "on topic" when you're the one who brought up the subject? I was only offering some advice. I even drew you a pretty diagram in my last post
My next question is regarding your "afr problem", about which, you state:
It's my understanding that "low 10s" is a very rich ratio, and a richer ratio means there is MORE unburnt fuel coming out of the motor, meaning not all of the potential energy was released in combustion.Even wikipedia knows...
...a richer mixture (lower air-fuel ratio) is used to produce cooler combustion products and thereby prevent detonation and overheating...
A richer air/fuel ratio helps the engine internals operate at a cooler temperature...
05-23-12 | 04:12 PM
#230
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 412
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Dan,
Great pictures and you're a hansom devil
Brent,
Vid of the nemesis is up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mwLlELZLQA
Great pictures and you're a hansom devil
Brent,
Vid of the nemesis is up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mwLlELZLQA
05-23-12 | 04:46 PM
#232
Dan,
Great pictures and you're a hansom devil
Brent,
Vid of the nemesis is up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mwLlELZLQA
Great pictures and you're a hansom devil
Brent,
Vid of the nemesis is up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mwLlELZLQA
05-23-12 | 04:57 PM
#233
Can you tell it says ADIOS in the video? My guy's license plate said "PROJECTILE" and we thought that was the same guy that Fritz was on track with, we could be wrong though.
05-23-12 | 04:57 PM
#234
e.g. If you install your wastegates backwards, and then do "testing" that gives you "data" allowing you to concluded that "the wastegates hurt the performance of the car", it doesn't matter... The problem isn't the part - the problem is the guy who installed them the wrong way, so no amount of "data" is going to prove anything.
You know, you don't have to be so hyper-sensitive about everything. If anyone else (besides me) posted suggesting you look at your ducting/undertray setup, I'm sure you wouldn't be so butt hurt, and wouldn't complain about "unwanted comments" and "thread crapping".
I clearly stated that you needed additional ducting along with the undertray, John was backing up my statements.Let's try to remember that you, David, don't run this forum and you don't get to dictate who posts what/where (as I mentioned already).
You posted about cooling problems at the track, I offered advice based on what I knew about your car. Hopefully you get it sorted out for next time.
Looks like everyone had a great time (except for the accident) - lots of great photos going up, so far. Wish I could have made it. Looking forward to seeing John's videos.
05-23-12 | 05:13 PM
#235
I think you are right Brent, that's the "PROJECTL" guy. The ADIOS guy was in one of Fritz's other runs, to the left of him in the line up. I took Fritz's pic then and pointed out the ADIOS guy to him and then watched Fritz reel him in and pass him.
05-23-12 | 05:14 PM
#236
05-23-12 | 06:08 PM
#238
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7iUK...e_gdata_player
05-23-12 | 06:52 PM
#239
05-23-12 | 08:56 PM
#241
Wish I could have been out there with you guys! Glad you two are OK and am sorry to hear about the condition of the cars.
Hopefully by the time I make it out you guys will be back on the road. Til then.. good luck with your recoveries.
Also, where is a good place to look for upcoming events (HPDE, circuitcross, etc)? The only reason that I made it out to run the Patriot Course last time was because of the NASA Get Fast newsletter. I am sure there are things (like this event) that I am missing.
Hopefully by the time I make it out you guys will be back on the road. Til then.. good luck with your recoveries.
Also, where is a good place to look for upcoming events (HPDE, circuitcross, etc)? The only reason that I made it out to run the Patriot Course last time was because of the NASA Get Fast newsletter. I am sure there are things (like this event) that I am missing.
05-23-12 | 09:11 PM
#242
Dan,
Great pictures and you're a hansom devil
Brent,
Vid of the nemesis is up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mwLlELZLQA
Great pictures and you're a hansom devil
Brent,
Vid of the nemesis is up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mwLlELZLQADid "Dr. Sportsmanship" buy a Corvette?
05-23-12 | 09:36 PM
#243
<SNIP>
Also, where is a good place to look for upcoming events (HPDE, circuitcross, etc)? The only reason that I made it out to run the Patriot Course last time was because of the NASA Get Fast newsletter. I am sure there are things (like this event) that I am missing.
Also, where is a good place to look for upcoming events (HPDE, circuitcross, etc)? The only reason that I made it out to run the Patriot Course last time was because of the NASA Get Fast newsletter. I am sure there are things (like this event) that I am missing.
Also, Google the track's you're willing to travel to, look at their schedule, and then Google the name of the entity renting the track.
I run with various Porsche Clubs, BMW, Z-Club, Alfa-club, and there is no ONE definitive source.
Some clubs that I know that use VIR, CMP, and other tracks near year are:
Tarheel Sports Car Club
Asphalt Ventures
Coastal Empire PCA
First Settlers PCA
Hope this helps.
:-) neil
05-23-12 | 09:50 PM
#244
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 412
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
LOL
He was running on fresh A6s. I tried to catch up with him in the paddock but he wasn't at his car.
He was actually fairly fast 2.05s (I don't think the good DR has run below a 2.07 hehe) the 1st lap behind him and then 2.04 the lap after I passed with him pedaling hard and fairly close behind me but he gave up at around t3 of the 3rd lap.
He was running on fresh A6s. I tried to catch up with him in the paddock but he wasn't at his car.
He was actually fairly fast 2.05s (I don't think the good DR has run below a 2.07 hehe) the 1st lap behind him and then 2.04 the lap after I passed with him pedaling hard and fairly close behind me but he gave up at around t3 of the 3rd lap.
05-24-12 | 08:55 AM
#245
I must have changed the settings on my gopro by accident, this **** does not look right.. The video looks stretched, but here's my video contribution. On lap 4 and 5 you'll see how quickly your lap time climbs as you get caught behind a car that doesn't point you by, no worries though I'm used to it lol.
Edit: Ok it looks like I need to re-edit my video with the correct track DAMN IT!
Edit: Ok it looks like I need to re-edit my video with the correct track DAMN IT!
05-24-12 | 09:01 AM
#246
VIR Full North Course you hang a right before the climbing esses.
Looking forward to watching the video. It's still kind of processing so it's a little choppy at the moment for me. Hurry up youtube!
North Course you hang a right before the climbing esses.Looking forward to watching the video. It's still kind of processing so it's a little choppy at the moment for me. Hurry up youtube!
05-24-12 | 10:26 AM
#249
Fixed! Kinda. Thanks Brent!
http://youtu.be/0P7YlWFCo10?hd=1
I need to mount the camera further forward in the future.
-Dan
http://youtu.be/0P7YlWFCo10?hd=1
I need to mount the camera further forward in the future.
-Dan
05-24-12 | 10:48 AM
#250
Nice video Dan!
I need to edit my data together with my video and post up my slow *** lap times. Might not be until this weekend tho, because I have been pretty busy moving into a new house. There are plenty of up close shots of the back of David's bumper.
I need to edit my data together with my video and post up my slow *** lap times. Might not be until this weekend tho, because I have been pretty busy moving into a new house. There are plenty of up close shots of the back of David's bumper.