Switched to Mobil 1 yesterday...
#101
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
With all due respect to all your macho chest-thumping on your auto racing exploits, that "girlie-man" chicane has the made the track somewhat safer for motorcycle racers, who are circulating quicker than that particular car ever has.
#102
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally posted by DRAG0NEER
what's wrong with using castrol???
what's wrong with using castrol???
A good synthetic oil will just perform the tasks that oils were intended to do much better.
#103
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Synthetic 2-stroke oils
Plain and simple fact: Synthetic 2-stroke oils run cleaner in the combustion chambers, smoke less, and definitely reduce deposits in the exhaust ports and mufflers.
These are NOT Mobil 1 replacements, they are meant to be consumed with the fuel in the combustion chamber.
As for the comment about the apex seals doing the sealing in the combustion chambers all by themselves, with no reliance on oil, please explain adding ATF to a newly built engine or one that has been sitting for a long time. The oil film creates the seal between the apex seal and the rotor housing. Try starting a piston engine that has been sitting for a long time. You will have no vacuum until you remove the spark plugs and oil the cylinders.
I applaud the gentleman racer's remarks concerning Mobil 1, but still think that the OMP conversion works better when used with a good synthetic 2-stroke oil. The mixture is controlled by the pump and not by guessing at the gas pump. Remember: you can race it on the street, but it still has to get you where you're going the rest of the time. It doesn't just go back on the hauler until the next race.
If everyone took off their A/C units, removed their OMPs and injection lines and modified their power steering to make it pseudo-manual, we would all be driving a late '60s Volvo with a 3 cylinder 2-stroke engine that required premix, was hot in the summer and steered like a truck. Your women must be much easier to impress than the one that I am married to.
<Rant is over. Please feel free to chastise me at your convenience.>
These are NOT Mobil 1 replacements, they are meant to be consumed with the fuel in the combustion chamber.
As for the comment about the apex seals doing the sealing in the combustion chambers all by themselves, with no reliance on oil, please explain adding ATF to a newly built engine or one that has been sitting for a long time. The oil film creates the seal between the apex seal and the rotor housing. Try starting a piston engine that has been sitting for a long time. You will have no vacuum until you remove the spark plugs and oil the cylinders.
I applaud the gentleman racer's remarks concerning Mobil 1, but still think that the OMP conversion works better when used with a good synthetic 2-stroke oil. The mixture is controlled by the pump and not by guessing at the gas pump. Remember: you can race it on the street, but it still has to get you where you're going the rest of the time. It doesn't just go back on the hauler until the next race.
If everyone took off their A/C units, removed their OMPs and injection lines and modified their power steering to make it pseudo-manual, we would all be driving a late '60s Volvo with a 3 cylinder 2-stroke engine that required premix, was hot in the summer and steered like a truck. Your women must be much easier to impress than the one that I am married to.
<Rant is over. Please feel free to chastise me at your convenience.>
#104
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Re: Synthetic 2-stroke oils
Originally posted by allenbillings
As for the comment about the apex seals doing the sealing in the combustion chambers all by themselves, with no reliance on oil, please explain adding ATF to a newly built engine or one that has been sitting for a long time. The oil film creates the seal between the apex seal and the rotor housing. Try starting a piston engine that has been sitting for a long time. You will have no vacuum until you remove the spark plugs and oil the cylinders.
As for the comment about the apex seals doing the sealing in the combustion chambers all by themselves, with no reliance on oil, please explain adding ATF to a newly built engine or one that has been sitting for a long time. The oil film creates the seal between the apex seal and the rotor housing. Try starting a piston engine that has been sitting for a long time. You will have no vacuum until you remove the spark plugs and oil the cylinders.
I didn't mean to imply that the apex seal/piston rings do the sealing without absolutely any help from an oil film; the oil does play a small role. But it's the lubrication properties that are most important; you were stating that using synthetic oil will result in "lower compression and a thinner protective film on engine parts." These, as I said, are myths. The seal in the combustion chamber is mostly created by the proper bedding in of the combustion sealing surfaces themselves.
Last edited by Kento; 05-05-03 at 05:29 PM.
#105
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Originally posted by Kento
Nothing. Your motor will run fine, and, properly cared for, will probably last a long time.
A good synthetic oil will just perform the tasks that oils were intended to do much better.
Nothing. Your motor will run fine, and, properly cared for, will probably last a long time.
A good synthetic oil will just perform the tasks that oils were intended to do much better.
better safe than sorry, I'm sticking with castrol 10-30.
#106
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Check out the Mobil 1 web site. They now recommend synthetic for the 13B-REW. Also, Royal Purple is quoted on the official Mazda Web site (under Seven Stock) as saying synthetic is ok for rotaries. What more do you want? Someone please shoot a letter to Mobil 1 and Mazda and get the new official word...
Again, synthetic at least better for the turbos and their about the same cost as the motor...
I'll also take the 20 years of experience which Racing Beat has (who recommends Royal Purple). They are trusted by Mazda to do their tuning (I believe they will be involved in all their upcoming Mazda Speed models)...
Again, synthetic at least better for the turbos and their about the same cost as the motor...
I'll also take the 20 years of experience which Racing Beat has (who recommends Royal Purple). They are trusted by Mazda to do their tuning (I believe they will be involved in all their upcoming Mazda Speed models)...
#107
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally posted by DRAG0NEER
under the risks of blowing the rotary engine from buildups?
better safe than sorry, I'm sticking with castrol 10-30.
under the risks of blowing the rotary engine from buildups?
better safe than sorry, I'm sticking with castrol 10-30.
#108
Waiting for the RX-9
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Buildups is NOT a myth.
It was one of Mazda's original concerns for not using synthetic. It has been overcome with new synthetic formulations and is apparently no longer an issue, but it is not a myth.
You put ATF or light weight oil in a new engine to prevent apex seal galling at the first turnover. The seals seal just like piston rings. Piston rings are just lucky enough to always have a small supply of oil on the low pressure side
It was one of Mazda's original concerns for not using synthetic. It has been overcome with new synthetic formulations and is apparently no longer an issue, but it is not a myth.
You put ATF or light weight oil in a new engine to prevent apex seal galling at the first turnover. The seals seal just like piston rings. Piston rings are just lucky enough to always have a small supply of oil on the low pressure side
#109
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally posted by tmiked
It has been overcome with new synthetic formulations and is apparently no longer an issue...
It has been overcome with new synthetic formulations and is apparently no longer an issue...
Last edited by Kento; 05-06-03 at 11:01 AM.
#110
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Kento, Mobil 1 syn 15W-50 for racing use (road course)? Do i run premix as well?
Also this might be a stupid question but can i use 2-stroke motocycle syn oil and not use premix?
Thanks
-joe
Also this might be a stupid question but can i use 2-stroke motocycle syn oil and not use premix?
Thanks
-joe
#111
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally posted by LetsGO7
Kento, Mobil 1 syn 15W-50 for racing use (road course)? Do i run premix as well?
Kento, Mobil 1 syn 15W-50 for racing use (road course)? Do i run premix as well?
Also this might be a stupid question but can i use 2-stroke motocycle syn oil and not use premix?
Last edited by Kento; 05-06-03 at 11:23 AM.
#112
Rotary Freak
iTrader: (1)
Hey Allen Billing,
Do you have any pictures or a write up of your adapter (from rotary aviation website?) for the 7?
I'm inclined to run full synthetic with a 2 stroke oil tank for the engine. Just wondering on your experience of the adapter.
Thanks.
PS sent you a PM just in case...
Do you have any pictures or a write up of your adapter (from rotary aviation website?) for the 7?
I'm inclined to run full synthetic with a 2 stroke oil tank for the engine. Just wondering on your experience of the adapter.
Thanks.
PS sent you a PM just in case...
#113
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OMP Adapter
I never have taken any pictures, but sent you a PM outlining what I have done.
Also, just to clear things up.....I never meant to say that thicker vicosity oils are a cure-all for engine wear. (Things can sure get twisted here) Oil does many things in an engine and some of it gets burned. In piston engines, there is a controlled leakage of oil through the valve guides and past the oil control rings to keep the upper cyliner areas lubricated. Think about it. Without ANY oil, the valves in a piston engine would sieze in their guides!
Also, when you are looking for the reason for low compression in a piston engine, you first take a standard compression test and record the results. THEN you oil the cylinder, through the plug hole, and take another reading. If the reading stays the same (low), then it points to a valve problem, but (here's where the oil seal comes in) if the compression reading rises appreciably, then it is definitely a ring problem. The oil has give you a temporary seal around the rings and causes a higher compression reading.
Don't blow things out of proportion!! Oil comes in different viscosities for a variety of applications and reasons. There have been problems with synthethetics since they were first used in World War ll. As with anything, improvements have been made. Ask around and find out how many engines Amsoil paid for when they first intrduced their oil. I personally installed three of them at the Toyota dealership where I worked at the time. Amsoil had a problem. They took their lumps and fixed it.
GM started recommending 10W30 oil instead of 10W40 for one reason. They found that 10W30 increased their mileage enough over their entire line to meet Federal standards.
Sometimes you need to look past the hype to find the real truth.
Also, just to clear things up.....I never meant to say that thicker vicosity oils are a cure-all for engine wear. (Things can sure get twisted here) Oil does many things in an engine and some of it gets burned. In piston engines, there is a controlled leakage of oil through the valve guides and past the oil control rings to keep the upper cyliner areas lubricated. Think about it. Without ANY oil, the valves in a piston engine would sieze in their guides!
Also, when you are looking for the reason for low compression in a piston engine, you first take a standard compression test and record the results. THEN you oil the cylinder, through the plug hole, and take another reading. If the reading stays the same (low), then it points to a valve problem, but (here's where the oil seal comes in) if the compression reading rises appreciably, then it is definitely a ring problem. The oil has give you a temporary seal around the rings and causes a higher compression reading.
Don't blow things out of proportion!! Oil comes in different viscosities for a variety of applications and reasons. There have been problems with synthethetics since they were first used in World War ll. As with anything, improvements have been made. Ask around and find out how many engines Amsoil paid for when they first intrduced their oil. I personally installed three of them at the Toyota dealership where I worked at the time. Amsoil had a problem. They took their lumps and fixed it.
GM started recommending 10W30 oil instead of 10W40 for one reason. They found that 10W30 increased their mileage enough over their entire line to meet Federal standards.
Sometimes you need to look past the hype to find the real truth.
#114
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
"don't blow things out of proportion"
Originally posted by allenbillings
I can see where the thinner viscosity of Mobil 1 might result in lower compression since it DOES actually leave a thinner protective film on the engine parts.A thicker viscosity oil might help seal the chambers and result in better compression, especially after initial startups after sitting for a while.
I can see where the thinner viscosity of Mobil 1 might result in lower compression since it DOES actually leave a thinner protective film on the engine parts.A thicker viscosity oil might help seal the chambers and result in better compression, especially after initial startups after sitting for a while.
Hey, I'm not saying synthetic oils are a cure-all for everything, either. But like you said: you have to look past the hype to get to the truth. And stating that synthetic oils in and of themselves "may offer less compression and a thinner protective film on engine parts" is hype itself.
Done with this thread.
Last edited by Kento; 05-06-03 at 05:37 PM.
#116
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Hooked on Phonics
Hey! Kento!
Evidentally that Hooked on Phonics course didn't work. If you read my reply you would have noticed that I said that the thicker coating would help during cold starts and initial warmups, NOT all of the time! Also, I NEVER mentioned "running crancase oil additives" through the combustion chamber. I said that I did not want to run crankcase oil (period) through my combustion chambers. It's like I've said many times before. If everyone agreed on everything there would be no reason to have various brands and various products within those brands. You have to run what you believe to be best. I've been building, racing, repairing and just plain fooling around with every type of engine imaginable for over 40 years. I've never lost one to an oil problem. I enjoy these forums because things are changing rapidly in the automotive world. I truly believe that we will be seeing a sealed engine in the very near future. Discussions like these will be relegated to the few people that still have what will soon become obsolete, antique automobiles.
Major corporations and the local auto dealers are already purchasing the auto parts yards here in the Phoenix area. First they purchase them and run them for another couple of months and then they crush everything and close them. They are forcing us to the dealers for new parts and making our older cars obsolete for want of repair parts.
Take a chill pill and relax. You're probably the last generation that will be able to widely enjoy modifying and playing with their cars.
No offense meant to anyone. Now, I'm done here, too!
--Al
Evidentally that Hooked on Phonics course didn't work. If you read my reply you would have noticed that I said that the thicker coating would help during cold starts and initial warmups, NOT all of the time! Also, I NEVER mentioned "running crancase oil additives" through the combustion chamber. I said that I did not want to run crankcase oil (period) through my combustion chambers. It's like I've said many times before. If everyone agreed on everything there would be no reason to have various brands and various products within those brands. You have to run what you believe to be best. I've been building, racing, repairing and just plain fooling around with every type of engine imaginable for over 40 years. I've never lost one to an oil problem. I enjoy these forums because things are changing rapidly in the automotive world. I truly believe that we will be seeing a sealed engine in the very near future. Discussions like these will be relegated to the few people that still have what will soon become obsolete, antique automobiles.
Major corporations and the local auto dealers are already purchasing the auto parts yards here in the Phoenix area. First they purchase them and run them for another couple of months and then they crush everything and close them. They are forcing us to the dealers for new parts and making our older cars obsolete for want of repair parts.
Take a chill pill and relax. You're probably the last generation that will be able to widely enjoy modifying and playing with their cars.
No offense meant to anyone. Now, I'm done here, too!
--Al
#117
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
OK...done
Originally posted by allenbillings
Also, I NEVER mentioned "running crancase oil additives" through the combustion chamber.
Also, I NEVER mentioned "running crancase oil additives" through the combustion chamber.
Originally posted by allenbillings
That way the wife doesn't have to worry about premix at the pump and we aren't running crankcase oil with additives through the combustion chambers.
That way the wife doesn't have to worry about premix at the pump and we aren't running crankcase oil with additives through the combustion chambers.
OK, now I'm really done with this thread...
#118
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Okay, back to the porsche engine debate.....I thought that all the cars that came out of Porsche have had their engines pre-broken in.....the run the motors before installing them into their cars or something....is this true?
#119
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Kento (if that is what you are really known by), you know that you're not really done. Keep working on that phonics thing. It looks like it's beginning to work for you.
#120
Lives on the Forum
The old oil debate! Here are my opinions to go in the mix:
Full synthetic is a better product, period. "Blended" synthetics are a complete waste as is mixing some synthetic with dino oil to save money.
Changing your oil every 5000 miles is more than adequate.
Running higher viscosity oil than required is a poor choice.
Having said that, what do I do? I use dino oil and change it every 3000 miles or every two track events, whichever comes first. I do that not because of the quality of the oil but because the oil in a rotary gets dilluted with gasoline, especially after race events. The oil absolutely reaks of gas after spending an afternoon at 5000+ rpm and this will deter any type of oil from performing at its best. The real advantage to synthetics are their resistance to breaking down and their longevity; you don't need to change them as often. Because of the dillution issue however I stick with a good dino oil as I am just going to change it in 3000 miles (or less) and therefore won't really get to take advantage of a synthetic.
If I had any other motor but a rotary in my race car I would certainly run synthetics. If I could afford to spend the money on Mobil 1 I would use it in my rotary (but still change it often due to gas dillution) because it is a better product.
On the subject of engine rebuilds, I have yet to find a turbo rotary that needed a rebuild due to anything other than blown apex seals, blown coolant o-rings or some other non-oil related damage. Your motor will blow up before you ever get to the point where you can win the "Synthetic oil made my engine last longer" argument when it comes to rotaries
Full synthetic is a better product, period. "Blended" synthetics are a complete waste as is mixing some synthetic with dino oil to save money.
Changing your oil every 5000 miles is more than adequate.
Running higher viscosity oil than required is a poor choice.
Having said that, what do I do? I use dino oil and change it every 3000 miles or every two track events, whichever comes first. I do that not because of the quality of the oil but because the oil in a rotary gets dilluted with gasoline, especially after race events. The oil absolutely reaks of gas after spending an afternoon at 5000+ rpm and this will deter any type of oil from performing at its best. The real advantage to synthetics are their resistance to breaking down and their longevity; you don't need to change them as often. Because of the dillution issue however I stick with a good dino oil as I am just going to change it in 3000 miles (or less) and therefore won't really get to take advantage of a synthetic.
If I had any other motor but a rotary in my race car I would certainly run synthetics. If I could afford to spend the money on Mobil 1 I would use it in my rotary (but still change it often due to gas dillution) because it is a better product.
On the subject of engine rebuilds, I have yet to find a turbo rotary that needed a rebuild due to anything other than blown apex seals, blown coolant o-rings or some other non-oil related damage. Your motor will blow up before you ever get to the point where you can win the "Synthetic oil made my engine last longer" argument when it comes to rotaries
#121
Senior Member
this debate is so tiring. It has been proven over and over that synthetic is superior.
Mobil1 15W-50 (made for performance and TURBOS)
MMO
Period. Done. Over. Finito..... whatever.
Shut up and do it. You will be happy.
Mobil1 15W-50 (made for performance and TURBOS)
MMO
Period. Done. Over. Finito..... whatever.
Shut up and do it. You will be happy.
#122
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Er.. not to extend this any longer but... after reading everything, I am still undecided. Either way, since I change my oil every 2-3k miles (sometimes less because I don't drive my car very often), and so I don't think its a huge impact.
However... I was wondering:
1) what do the best tuners now recommend? I think i read a post that said rx7.com recommended dino oil. I'd love to hear what some of the other people are recommending, and they themselves are using.
2) does looking at what mazda recommends on the renesis engine offer any updated view of how they feel aobut this synthetic? Sorry, I'm a complete novice and odn't know if there are differences large enough in the Renesise engine, rendering any comparison useless.
Thanks.
However... I was wondering:
1) what do the best tuners now recommend? I think i read a post that said rx7.com recommended dino oil. I'd love to hear what some of the other people are recommending, and they themselves are using.
2) does looking at what mazda recommends on the renesis engine offer any updated view of how they feel aobut this synthetic? Sorry, I'm a complete novice and odn't know if there are differences large enough in the Renesise engine, rendering any comparison useless.
Thanks.