Kento

With all due respect to all your macho chest-thumping on your auto racing exploits, that "girlie-man" chicane has the made the track somewhat safer for motorcycle racers, who are circulating quicker than that particular car ever has.

Kento

Nothing. Your motor will run fine, and, properly cared for, will probably last a long time.

A good synthetic oil will just perform the tasks that oils were intended to do much better.

allenbillings

Plain and simple fact: Synthetic 2-stroke oils run cleaner in the combustion chambers, smoke less, and definitely reduce deposits in the exhaust ports and mufflers.
These are NOT Mobil 1 replacements, they are meant to be consumed with the fuel in the combustion chamber.
As for the comment about the apex seals doing the sealing in the combustion chambers all by themselves, with no reliance on oil, please explain adding ATF to a newly built engine or one that has been sitting for a long time. The oil film creates the seal between the apex seal and the rotor housing. Try starting a piston engine that has been sitting for a long time. You will have no vacuum until you remove the spark plugs and oil the cylinders.
I applaud the gentleman racer's remarks concerning Mobil 1, but still think that the OMP conversion works better when used with a good synthetic 2-stroke oil. The mixture is controlled by the pump and not by guessing at the gas pump. Remember: you can race it on the street, but it still has to get you where you're going the rest of the time. It doesn't just go back on the hauler until the next race.
If everyone took off their A/C units, removed their OMPs and injection lines and modified their power steering to make it pseudo-manual, we would all be driving a late '60s Volvo with a 3 cylinder 2-stroke engine that required premix, was hot in the summer and steered like a truck. Your women must be much easier to impress than the one that I am married to.

<Rant is over. Please feel free to chastise me at your convenience.>

Kento

That's because you're talking about a cold engine. Does it remain that temperature after you've run a few laps/driven hard/made a dragstrip pass? The metals (apex seals/piston rings and rotor housing/cylinder walls) haven't had a chance to reach proper operating temperature and therefore expand to the proper tolerances. Or, in the case of the newly built engine, the apex seals/piston rings also haven't had a chance to bed in. If the oil film on the rotor housing/cylinder walls had an appreciable effect on compression when the engine is at operating temps and working rpms, then shouldn't we see racing teams around the world using 90 weight oils and hardly rebuilding their engines?? And what about-- pardon me here, ultra-serious rotorheads-- valves (in the case of piston engines)? Their role in combustion sealing is just as important, but you don't see much oil being thrown their way.

I didn't mean to imply that the apex seal/piston rings do the sealing without absolutely any help from an oil film; the oil does play a small role. But it's the lubrication properties that are most important; you were stating that using synthetic oil will result in "lower compression and a thinner protective film on engine parts." These, as I said, are myths. The seal in the combustion chamber is mostly created by the proper bedding in of the combustion sealing surfaces themselves.

DRAG0NEER

under the risks of blowing the rotary engine from buildups?

better safe than sorry, I'm sticking with castrol 10-30.

rotary-tt

Check out the Mobil 1 web site. They now recommend synthetic for the 13B-REW. Also, Royal Purple is quoted on the official Mazda Web site (under Seven Stock) as saying synthetic is ok for rotaries. What more do you want? Someone please shoot a letter to Mobil 1 and Mazda and get the new official word...

Again, synthetic at least better for the turbos and their about the same cost as the motor...

I'll also take the 20 years of experience which Racing Beat has (who recommends Royal Purple). They are trusted by Mazda to do their tuning (I believe they will be involved in all their upcoming Mazda Speed models)...

Kento

"Buildups"? Of what? More myths. Synthetics burn cleaner than dino oil.

tmiked

Buildups is NOT a myth.
It was one of Mazda's original concerns for not using synthetic. It has been overcome with new synthetic formulations and is apparently no longer an issue, but it is not a myth.

You put ATF or light weight oil in a new engine to prevent apex seal galling at the first turnover. The seals seal just like piston rings. Piston rings are just lucky enough to always have a small supply of oil on the low pressure side

Kento

That, in my book, puts that subject in the category of "myths" (just as "using a thicker viscosity oil is more protective for engine parts", which may have been the case 40 years ago when motor oil technology was still in its infancy). But, in the interests of semantics and fairness, I'll rephrase it as "history".

LetsGO7

iTrader: (2)

Kento, Mobil 1 syn 15W-50 for racing use (road course)? Do i run premix as well?

Also this might be a stupid question but can i use 2-stroke motocycle syn oil and not use premix?

Thanks

-joe

Kento

Shouldn't be a problem IMHO. Although you might want to check into oils from other companies that have formulations for racing specific applications such as Redline, Royal Purple, Motul, Amsoil, etc. Not sure about the premix; those with extensive road course experience would have better knowledge there.

No, if I'm reading you correctly. You can't use synthetic 2-stroke oil in the crankcase, because 2-strokes use ball-bearing crankshafts, so their lubrication needs are far different from an engine like the rotary, that also must lubricate the eccentric shaft gears, rotor ring gear, etc.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

Hey Allen Billing,

Do you have any pictures or a write up of your adapter (from rotary aviation website?) for the 7?

I'm inclined to run full synthetic with a 2 stroke oil tank for the engine. Just wondering on your experience of the adapter.

Thanks.

PS sent you a PM just in case...

allenbillings

I never have taken any pictures, but sent you a PM outlining what I have done.
Also, just to clear things up.....I never meant to say that thicker vicosity oils are a cure-all for engine wear. (Things can sure get twisted here) Oil does many things in an engine and some of it gets burned. In piston engines, there is a controlled leakage of oil through the valve guides and past the oil control rings to keep the upper cyliner areas lubricated. Think about it. Without ANY oil, the valves in a piston engine would sieze in their guides!
Also, when you are looking for the reason for low compression in a piston engine, you first take a standard compression test and record the results. THEN you oil the cylinder, through the plug hole, and take another reading. If the reading stays the same (low), then it points to a valve problem, but (here's where the oil seal comes in) if the compression reading rises appreciably, then it is definitely a ring problem. The oil has give you a temporary seal around the rings and causes a higher compression reading.
Don't blow things out of proportion!! Oil comes in different viscosities for a variety of applications and reasons. There have been problems with synthethetics since they were first used in World War ll. As with anything, improvements have been made. Ask around and find out how many engines Amsoil paid for when they first intrduced their oil. I personally installed three of them at the Toyota dealership where I worked at the time. Amsoil had a problem. They took their lumps and fixed it.
GM started recommending 10W30 oil instead of 10W40 for one reason. They found that 10W30 increased their mileage enough over their entire line to meet Federal standards.
Sometimes you need to look past the hype to find the real truth.

Kento

Look, I don't want to go back and forth over this and suck up bandwidth, but I'm just clarifying what you originally stated. If you read my replys carefully, you'll note that I'm replying exactly to what you stated. You're the one blowing things out of proportion here. For instance, did I say anything about valves not getting any oil whatsoever? No. All I said was "not much oil gets thrown their way." And lubrication of the valve guides has nothing to do (other than making sure the valve face seats fully) with your original statement above, which was the subject of my reply. Which is, once an engine is up to operating temp and rpms, the oil's role (and we're not even talking about viscosity) in sealing the combustion chamber is extremely small compared the proper bedding in of the sealing surfaces. Sure, oiling the cylinder walls to check for compression works when the engine is cold and not at working rpms, where combustion pressures are higher. And the role of the "oil scraper" in piston rings/apex seals is...?
Hey, I'm not saying synthetic oils are a cure-all for everything, either. But like you said: you have to look past the hype to get to the truth. And stating that synthetic oils in and of themselves "may offer less compression and a thinner protective film on engine parts" is hype itself.

Done with this thread.

Street King

DIE THREAD DIE!

allenbillings

Hey! Kento!

Evidentally that Hooked on Phonics course didn't work. If you read my reply you would have noticed that I said that the thicker coating would help during cold starts and initial warmups, NOT all of the time! Also, I NEVER mentioned "running crancase oil additives" through the combustion chamber. I said that I did not want to run crankcase oil (period) through my combustion chambers. It's like I've said many times before. If everyone agreed on everything there would be no reason to have various brands and various products within those brands. You have to run what you believe to be best. I've been building, racing, repairing and just plain fooling around with every type of engine imaginable for over 40 years. I've never lost one to an oil problem. I enjoy these forums because things are changing rapidly in the automotive world. I truly believe that we will be seeing a sealed engine in the very near future. Discussions like these will be relegated to the few people that still have what will soon become obsolete, antique automobiles.
Major corporations and the local auto dealers are already purchasing the auto parts yards here in the Phoenix area. First they purchase them and run them for another couple of months and then they crush everything and close them. They are forcing us to the dealers for new parts and making our older cars obsolete for want of repair parts.
Take a chill pill and relax. You're probably the last generation that will be able to widely enjoy modifying and playing with their cars.
No offense meant to anyone. Now, I'm done here, too!

--Al

Kento

sahrri alin. i kudint hellp miself.

OK, now I'm really done with this thread...

REDLINE

Okay, back to the porsche engine debate.....I thought that all the cars that came out of Porsche have had their engines pre-broken in.....the run the motors before installing them into their cars or something....is this true?

allenbillings

Kento (if that is what you are really known by), you know that you're not really done. Keep working on that phonics thing. It looks like it's beginning to work for you.

DamonB

The old oil debate! Here are my opinions to go in the mix:

Full synthetic is a better product, period. "Blended" synthetics are a complete waste as is mixing some synthetic with dino oil to save money.

Changing your oil every 5000 miles is more than adequate.

Running higher viscosity oil than required is a poor choice.

Having said that, what do I do? I use dino oil and change it every 3000 miles or every two track events, whichever comes first. I do that not because of the quality of the oil but because the oil in a rotary gets dilluted with gasoline, especially after race events. The oil absolutely reaks of gas after spending an afternoon at 5000+ rpm and this will deter any type of oil from performing at its best. The real advantage to synthetics are their resistance to breaking down and their longevity; you don't need to change them as often. Because of the dillution issue however I stick with a good dino oil as I am just going to change it in 3000 miles (or less) and therefore won't really get to take advantage of a synthetic.

If I had any other motor but a rotary in my race car I would certainly run synthetics. If I could afford to spend the money on Mobil 1 I would use it in my rotary (but still change it often due to gas dillution) because it is a better product.

On the subject of engine rebuilds, I have yet to find a turbo rotary that needed a rebuild due to anything other than blown apex seals, blown coolant o-rings or some other non-oil related damage. Your motor will blow up before you ever get to the point where you can win the "Synthetic oil made my engine last longer" argument when it comes to rotaries

xurotaryrocket

this debate is so tiring. It has been proven over and over that synthetic is superior.

Mobil1 15W-50 (made for performance and TURBOS)

MMO

Period. Done. Over. Finito..... whatever.

Shut up and do it. You will be happy.

nycrx7

Er.. not to extend this any longer but... after reading everything, I am still undecided. Either way, since I change my oil every 2-3k miles (sometimes less because I don't drive my car very often), and so I don't think its a huge impact.

However... I was wondering:

1) what do the best tuners now recommend? I think i read a post that said rx7.com recommended dino oil. I'd love to hear what some of the other people are recommending, and they themselves are using.

2) does looking at what mazda recommends on the renesis engine offer any updated view of how they feel aobut this synthetic? Sorry, I'm a complete novice and odn't know if there are differences large enough in the Renesise engine, rendering any comparison useless.

Thanks.

DaedelGT

I know Mazda recommends you use a non-synthetic, but I have not seen a post on the 8 forum stating that they are still against it.

LetsGO7

iTrader: (2)

RE Amamiya and R-magic run Synthetic. Fujita Engineering however run mineral base.

hope this helps

-joe

Fatman0203

If you do use synthetic i have heard that it burns faster than dino juice so you should be checking your oil periodically.