NickSimcheck

your a funny motha fwaka jim, but you have to admit it gets annoying wehn you see somebody ask if a supra is faster then an rx7 or if a rx7 can beat a s2000...why don't they go out and see for themselfs? i guess ignorant people get on my nervs. and the funny part is that these guys go on a rx-7 forum and ask if the supra is better... WELL HELLO, if i thought the supra was better i would have caught a supra.
Nick

jimlab

It's also annoying when people ask "I'm thinking about buying an RX-7, what should I look for?", "How can I tell if I have an R1/R2?", "How much will I dyno with these parts?", or "What times can I expect with this horsepower?", but you don't have to read those threads either.

Anyone asking about a Supra may be an RX-7 owner with second thoughts, a new car buyer who is evaluating both, or possibly someone who doesn't realize that there is a Supra forum. Regardless, they don't deserve a hostile answer or an antisocial "use the DAMN search function" response unless they're obviously here only to start trouble.

Lighten up, you'll live longer.

EricM

Basically the Supra is for whiny old man who can't get his hands dirty and RX-7 is for extreme young people w/ a lot of patience..

NickSimcheck

not to poke sticks at Jim.. but if Jim's a whiny old man who can't get his hands dirty then what the hell is he doing with a rx-7?? supras are great cars... in fact if i could get one for less then 15 grand that wasn't in shabby shape i would get one. but if i wanted a car that heavy and that expensive i would buy a corvette... Jim hows the vette handle to the supra?
Nick

EricM

hehe.. you know I'm joking right ? Read the whole sentence and you'll understand.

Freaky Monkey007

Ive been in both the supra and 7 with basicaly BPU upgrades(not driving of course, stinks not to have ur license yet) and the 7 feels like its faster. It also feels more stable in turns and transmits what is going on better. The supra on the other hand is like a s class. Its big dosent handle very well but the interior is far more confterable than the 7. This is just what i felt from the passanger side.. Sry for my spelling im not the bst in the world.

jimlab

It's a Z06. How do you think it handles?

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

I like Dawg's the make me very happy and chase away all the *****!

Silex

My god glss man! The last thing we want is for you to chase all the ***** away! Ahem...supras are nice cars IMHO. I was originally going to get a supra, but then opted for the rx7. I guess it just depends on your current sitaution. Certain facts to consider is "how much time do i have to spend with my car?" or "Do I need to often drive long distances?" or "Do I have the money to maintain it?"
Ask these questions to yorself (not too loud since the people next to you might do something funny *hint*) and then the answer will come to you .
BTW, jim, you sound like an author and it's great knowing that every post that I've read that you have written truely makes the whole thread worthwhile. You learn more from one of jim's posts than everyone else's combined. Thx jim and keep up the good work!

RyanREX

The rivals are in different leagues. If you want stait line performace you want a Supra. But if it's all about track, RX7. But the RX7 is a pretty good performer for both. The Supra is a pig, the RX7 is a wild boar!

ludeowner

Thanks for the info Jimlab!!!

**cuts and pastes**

mrb63083

iTrader: (4)

yea, my friend has a supra, handling in my rex is wayyyy better

NickSimcheck

I know it's a Z06, but that doesn't mean it's not a Corvette. And i know the Z06 is great on the skid pad but I've never driven one so I was curious how it handled in the real world.
Nick

[Edit] Never mind, at first it sounded like you were telling me that your car was a Z06 not a vette but then I realized your not that stupid. But I still wanna know how it drives...

jimlab

Well, let's be honest here... handling may *feel* better in the RX-7, but the numbers don't lie. Stock for stock, the Supra "handles" as well as the RX-7 in subjective skid pad and slalom comparisons. It *feels* looser because the car is heavier and tends to lean more, but that doesn't mean that your tires aren't holding the corner.

The RX-7 feels like it handles much better because it's smaller, doesn't have as much overhanging hood, is lighter, and has less body roll. You're more connected to what the car is doing, and if anything, the Supra isolates you more from road feel. It's more Lexus than sports car in that regard.

But it can easily generate numbers just as good, if not a little better, than an RX-7 in the slalom and on the skid pad, because it brings a lot more contact patch to the gunfight. P225/50-16s on the RX-7 at all four corners, but the Supra has 235/45-17s in front and 255/40-17s in the back. The extra rubber does counteract the extra weight very well. It won't help control body roll, though, and the Supra definitely has a lot more roll than the RX-7.

It's only in tight corners like those found on autocross courses that the Supra can't change direction nearly as nimbly as the RX-7 can. The RX-7 simply has less mass to control and directional changes are tighter and quicker. The Supra has to stop considerable more weight and move it in another direction, and this tends to be a slower process, which is why I stated above that watching a Supra autocross is like watching a transit bus slalom. It "wallows" in the corners. That's not to say that you can't get one around a road course, though.

In the recent magazine shootout, Wolfgang's RX-7 driven by Rhys Millen was only a very short margin ahead of the second place Supra, driven by its own driver. If you don't think that's impressive, you should. Horsepower isn't always the answer, although it can make up for bad cornering on the straights, to some degree. But if you can hit your corners well enough to get a much heavier Supra around the course not far behind the RX-7, even if it was only mildly modified, then you're doing something right. And the difference in driver skill also has to be considered here. It's not purely car against car.

Then again, I've noticed that the magazine winner usually has Rhys Millen behind the wheel... if all the cars were RX-7s, equally modified, you'd still have Rhys Millen in first place, more than likely, unless the other drivers were very, very good.

jimlab

There's not a cliche in the book that doesn't apply. Rock on the end of a string? On rails? It's handling is every bit as good as an RX-7, and with the much wider tires, probably even better. Goodyear F1 Supercar P275/40-17s in the front, P295/35-18s in the rear, stock. Far more power on the low end, and the top end doesn't suck either.

In other words, it's a very well-rounded, lightweight, thinly-veiled race car for the street. Just like the RX-7. But ask RX-7 owners who compete in Solo II Stock or Street Prepared what car they fear the most...

EricM

actually, the RX-7 does 1:05 and the Supra does 1:07. Two seconds in a one-minute lap, one mile road course, translates to 5-6 cars per lap, not quite very short IMO. The supra is driven by a professional driver, I forgot his name but definitely not by his owner. Also, the Supra has upgraded suspension and wheel/tires, granted the RX-7 is tuned far better. Not to mention it has twice the power.
On another note, Rhys Millen drove the 360 Modena around the same course in 1:02 w/ Hoosier tires. Considering the fact that they are usually 2-5 seconds faster than BFG KD, one can conclude that 360 Modena and Wolfgang's RX-7 is equal on that track....

hmmm... and his FD is only boosting 10# w/ stock ECU, wonder if FD can run w/ F40 with single turbo conversion.

EricM

what makes a car handle on rails is light suspension components and tires/wheels. So, actually by going wider tires, feel might actually suffer by slightly heavier tire/wheel combo but definitely you got more grip, better numbers, faster lap, etc.

I don't think it's fair pitting a 255 hp car w/ 405 hp car which weighs pretty close in a race track. As you mentioned earlier, torque rules exiting the corner, even if RX-7 type RZ was here, Z06 would still be king.

jimlab

It was my understanding that the owner drove his car.

Regardless, for a test to be more valid, especially since they ran the cars sequentially, the driver should be the same for each car. Besides, who better to have behind the wheel of the Supra than Rhys Millen? It would have been very interesting to see the results of that match-up.

I understand that some owners would not allow their car to be driven by another driver, but in order to have a fair comparison of the merits of each car, and the car alone, the driver skill should be a constant.

More power doesn't necessarily level the playing field, it can be a liability. Especially when it's a big single turbo car with peaky power in a fairly narrow band with substantial turbo lag at low rpm, which the article mentioned was a problem. A Supra with a smaller single or even the stock twins at high boost would have faired better, I'm willing to bet. Unfortunately, Supra owners usually concentrate on making big RWHP on the dyno to the exclusion of building a well-rounded car with more usable power.

TailHappy

Wow, I'm surprised at the positive feedback on this. I came in expecting a flame war...

I just wanted to say that I took my first ride in a 500+rwhp Supra yesterday and personally I'd sell my FD and my soul for it! It had the single turbo upgrade along with about everything else that could be done, but surprisingly it didn't seem to have lost any of its streetability. And it didn't feel at all like a turbo car....the power was absolutely perfectly linear. It would spin the hell out of the tires all the way to third gear. It does 0-201 in 47 seconds!!!!!! I'd be willing to give up a little (and I stress little) handling for that kind of acceleration! Nuff said.

And I'm extremely jealous at how bulletproof everything is from the engine all the way to the drivetrain. It really feels solid (guess the 3500lbs helps there)

But what I didn't see anyone taking into account is price. These things are still WAAY up there (and appreciating) compared to a FD, and THAT'S what makes all the difference in the world (at least for my measly budget!)

(but I still love my FD!)

EricM

I believe that Supra used custom twin Greddy turbos(16G or 20G), the other silver Supra w/ big single T04R did worse. I watched the video @my friends house.

Nevertheless, I completely agree w/ all you said.
Still, I think RX-7 handles much better, unless they start putting 3S-GTE engine in the Supra and shave at least 500#.

peace...

EricM

just remember something...

My buddy who own single turbo Supra just showed me an article couple months ago about a Supra winning 2nd place to the Ferrari 360 Modena. That Ferrari was driven by guess... Rhys Millen, and the Supra was driven by its owner. I think that was the article that you were referring to.

Steve Jarvis

If anyone is going to the BMWCCA event at VIR on March 9th and 10th, I would be more than happy to compare lap times. I will be on street tires.

The Supra is very near the RX7 when it comes to the roadcourse. It always bothers me that they pick Supra's that are basically setup for drag racing to put in handling tests. And they pick short 1 minute tracks to call roadcourses. We all know the RX7 owns the Supra in an autocross. I won the state AS championship in my stock 1993 RX7 R1. In the G-Games (or what ever they were called) the Supra's were running 245's on the front of a heavy car with huge turbo's and a lot of lag. In the Ultimate Sportscar Challenge Mani's Supra had a large (completely untuned) T66. He was running very low boost because of he had no idea what his A/F ratio was. He was not running the same level that he ran on the dyno. And the Ferrari owner hired Rhys to drive his car, Mani drove his own.

I was personally faster in my Supra than in my RX7. At CMP my 300rwhp Rx7 turned a 1:57 and my BPU (380rwhp in roadcourse tune) Supra turned a 1:55. Both on stock wheel and tires. My car is currently making about 475rwhp (and spools the same as stock twins) in roadcourse tune and has springs, shocks and swaybars. I also run 275/35R18's on 18x9.5" front and 295/30R18's on 18x10.5" rear.

I know Sandy Linthicum is going to be there and he used to own a pretty trick RX7, but I wonder if anyone else will be?

TailHappy on this forum actually owns my old FD

Later, Steve

jimlab

Just curious how you arrived at those numbers.

Car Test shows a 3,450 lb. 550 RWHP (~640 bhp) Supra reaching a 196.1 mph terminal speed at about 69 seconds. Too much frontal area on that car, and the 0.32 cd isn't the greatest either.

Also, the Supra speedometer only goes to 180 mph. Was a radar gun employed to determine speed, or was it determined by some other means?

jimlab

Sandy's apparently had enough of rotary engines after his 10 psi Motec-controlled ceramic seal engine went south, and has been talking to me about an LS1 conversion...

yzf-r1

iTrader: (1)

JIM LABRECK'S ROTARY ELIMINATION SERVICE, FOR THIRD GEN OWNERS THAT JUST CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!

as much as I think the whole conversion idea is very practical and logical, it's just kind of anti-climatic

"wow, that RX-7 really kicks ***, what are you running in that thing?"

"a 396 Chevy"

"oh....ok"