What chuck has just said makes a lot of sense. I would have to agree that V-mount intercoolers are more efficient than SMIC. lot of japanese cars are using them now, even panspeed and other japanese tuners are creatng their own V-mount set up for racing so that they can get more airflow to both the radiator and the intercooler.

 

I wish I would have known you were going to post this I would of stopped quoting.

 

You need to take into consideration all points of the airflow tract to understand why the "VMIC System" is superior.
I did not know that they use new cores, and Chuck has given you the info you desired. Do you have numbers for the upgraded versions of the M2 Large and Med? I'd like to see them.

It was previously stated that a VMIC would only be better than a SMIC IF it had a vented hood. So i made the comment above to say that a non vented vmic is no different than a non vented smic, except the charge air is able to flow more (and also it's being exposed to air better). At the time I made that statement I didn't know about the upgraded M2 units that you now tell me of.

Correct. I did not know the M2 units were upgraded and now use tube and fin technology as well...I still don't know for sure until you post figures.

You obviously don't understand my main point, being that the "VMIC system" is able to utilize and incorporate the quick and unhindered expendature of the air passing through the IC (this is what reduces RAMMING, because the air can flow more easily through the IC and isn't being pushed back by it.) A SMIC does not, even with a vented hood.

The "VMIC system" is able to utilize and incorporate the quick and unhindered expendature of the air passing through the IC, resulting in the increased amount of cooling air flowing through the IC. Do you still not understand? A hood is only one peice of the "VMIC system". Simply adding a vented hood won't give nearly the same results to a system that doesn't incorporate it into it (not that it might not help atleast some).
You do have a good point here. I never considered airflow turbulence resulting from the air passing through the radiator into the stream of air passing under the car. You may want to do some more research on this, I can't say how severe it would be or if it would even be present or apparent.

Actually, you have to consider that if air on the surface is able to flow easier out then the air behind that air will be easier to flow out, and the air behind that etc. etc. distributing all the way down to the IC face.

I don't think any of my assumptions are outright false. All of them will occur to some degree. Chuck has allready responded to you about the flow numbers, I'd like to have the upgraded M2 IC flow numbers from you now.

 

My main point in this thread is that the VMIC system creates a direct tract for air to flow which neither the SMIC or FMIC does. This direct tract (in the nose, out the hood) is also pretty straight for the most part except where it's curved up to enter the IC. When un-ducted air enters from the nose into the engine bay it has no place to go so it bounces all over the place and creates increased pressure in the engine bay, making it harder for new air to enter through the nose.

This is not nessassarily the greatest aspect of the VMIC system (I'd say keeping the IC tract and radiator tract seperate is) but it was the main point in my post. I hope you understand better what I was trying to say now...

Edit: the vacuum effect created by the air rushing over the hood is also an added bonus that helps "pull" air through the tract.

 

Theres a whole lot of speculation going on in this forum about how air will bend here, won't bend there, bounces around, creates pressure, and flows this way and that, from shade-tree aerodynamacists. Those are some extremely complex problems that only lab or wind-tunnel testing would really answer.

Since only X amount of air will come in through the opening in the front of the car at a given speed though, you can only slice it up but so many ways.... if you "give" extra air to one heat exchanger, you effectively "take" it from another.

I'm still very interested in how Jap tuners or chuck will get a VMIC setup to work with an A/C system. Any pics of the installations?

 

The A/C condensor will be sitting on top of the radiator. There is going to be bracket welding on the radiator for you to bolt on the A/C condesor.

As for the lines, one of the AC line from the dryer is too long so you will have to bend a loop to reduce the length. I don't have the pic with me right now but I will get that uploaded here tonight.

Chuck

 

guess everyone missed my post...IT WORKS

I do think that one addition that may or may not be neccessary is a divider to divide the amount of air going to each heat exhanger. You could effectively change how much air each one sees by changing the position of the divider within the V....

i may try that out in the future as summer hits and warmer weather starts to come, but as of right now on the street and also in the track event i ran, it is working great.

-Nic

 

ptrhahn, you are absolutely correct. Most everything I say is an educated speculation since I have no degree or real knowledge in aerodynamics or physics...yet
Chuck however does have a degree in science from Berkeley, so I'd consider his posts credible enough. Not mere speculation like mine anyways.

As for the problem with having enough heat exchanger to split:

 

Indeed.. i didn't mean to imply that anyones posts weren't credible...

Just that the dynamics of what may or may not be going on with the air in these various configs., is terribly complex and would be tough for an actual aerodynamicist to tell by just supposing.

 

Dayam..is that the RE Amemiya RX-7 that competes in JGTC?

How much is this VMIC? That's the sticky point...with a radiator..or whatever the package deal is?

 

might be time for a GB

 

Here is a pic of the KS vmount and the loop they did with the dryer tube. You can buy a tube bender from summit racing for around $10.

As for prices of the V mount on RE Amemiya, Knight Sports, and Panspeed, they are all retailed at around US$2980 in Japan. If there is enough interest on this, I will probably set up a group buy on any of those including mine but I need to talk to Jason about this first.

Chuck

 

Hmm..I guess I'll have to save up for that sucker..it's something I'd like because I'd really like to get a FMIC, but since my car is a daily driver..the SMIC makes much more sense.

 

The only Prob with using this pic to illustrate the airflow needed for a V-mount is, that car has NO intercooler. It is powered by a NA 20B race motor.

 

Already done

 

Very cool... this is starting to have promise. Do you have any pics of whet they did with the condensor?

 

ZeroR...I dont understand your post...
I dont want to address what I think you MIGHT be trying to say until you can clarify.

I have one semester left in a Mechanical Engineering degree from the USAF Academy if that carries any weight with y'all at all. The aerodynamics and thermodynamics involved with all of this is of course very complicated if you were to dissect it all. However, for the purposes of a street car or even this setup on 90% of your cars, looking at everything on that sort of level is somewhat irrelevant. The important information such as pressure loss through the IC for comparisons purpose, surface area exposed for convection, and how the air will perform when it would interact with any IC and radiator setup is something that all of you seem to understand in a general high school physics sense......which is all you need at this point to determine which is really the better option. After that point it just comes to a decision of how things will be configured - what angle, what will direct the air flow, where the air will go (ducting), etc.

It seems to me that many of the individuals replying in this thread understand these basic principles and there really isnt much to be gained by a few hours of calculation and what seems at this point to require almost too many assumptions for those calculations.

 

I have been on this forum for a very long time, and read many things, but I don't think I have ever read one as condescending, as the one you just posted. Take no offense by what I just said, just try to understand how you just sounded, if your asking that I might be implying that I have already made a splitter, yes I have, If your going to ask to what degree of engineering was involved, I would say only the amount that was needed for the intended purpose, as you said in your post; and that is one hell of a nice street car that occasionally see's track time. I have also made the templates for it to be ducted to the hood just haven't gotten around to finish it yet. Too busy working on other peoples cars.I've also been working on the templates for the front undertray which will diffuse the air from the radiators fans up and torwards the front wheels. The plus side to this will be that I will get a nice little low pressure zone under the car because the front undertray will sit lower than the rest of the panels under the car, until this is all on the car and I do some"highschool physics" testing I can't say that it is the best setup, only that it's better than what I've seen on the market.

 

You'll love your CCW's by the way I have the same size your looking in to.

 

i wasnt meaning to be condescending....sorry if it came out that way

i thought you were trying to say that Chuck had already developed a splitter - which i had no knowledge of. I didnt want to say that he had or hadnt or whether you were trying to say that this was already put into the KS or REAmemiya model because i thought you might have some info that i dont....that's it. your comment was just a little vague....

as far as the high school physics remark - i was just commenting that the basic principles behind directing the air whether it is turbulent or laminar and how it will flow is something that is pretty intuitive or that all of you learned in HS physics. Just trying to tell the other guys not to think so hard when comparing the Vmount setup to a SMIC or FMIC......it doesnt really need to be over complicated to see which one would perform better in my opinion.

cool?

-Nic

 

Definitly cool, I would have never thought of it sounding like Chuck had made something, and you hit it right on the head about people over thinking it for the intended use, it's pretty simple really. I think I miss understood it as condescending because of the way it was worded, ie. "all of you learned" instead of "we all learned".
I give Chuck credit for doing what he does he makes it better for the masses of people who aren't able to put the time or knowhow into their car the way a few of us can.

 

I don't have a pic of it but it's just on top of the radiator which has brackets on the sides for the AC condensor to bolt on.

Chuck

 

I ofcourse I know that JGTC is by far my favorite GT racing and now it's on speed channel! I wonder why they used the 20B also...it's by no doubt a lot heavier than the turbo 2L engines the other manufactures use which makes less power/weight ratio and intertia going into turns, I wonder if a PPed 13B would possibly hit 300hp with some crazy tuning, or if RE Amemiya had the recources and technology to create such an engine?(obviously not )...One thing's for sure though, if the mazda R&D that created the 787B made an RX-7 for the GT500 series you know it'd be one crazy *** **** that probably dominated the field given their incredibly lax rules, especially regarding weight. I'd say the engine would probably be a 3 spark NA rotary like the 26B, only a 20B....mmmmm...3 spark

BTW, I'm sure it's aparent that the fact that that car has a 20B in it has nothing to do with how well that body kit would work with the V-MIC system I guess in a perfect world we could all have N/A 3spark rotary monsters, but since we don't I guess we'll have to settle for hyper-cooled turbo setups

As long as we're talking about JGTC here...wouldn't it be awesome if Tommy Kaira was allowed to participate?! I bet they'd mop the floors with those skylines! using their own engines no less, haha!

3spark N/A 500hp full factory backed RX-7's and the most beautiful car ever made having a nissan engine in it...ohh what a dream world I live in! Atleast one of the two can be a reality

 

Just incase you guys don't know what I'm talking about: Tommy Kaira is a very small Japanese car manufacturer created by the well known Japanese designer, Kikuo Kaira. They've design cars based mostly around function and use Nissan engines in them. It's Japan's version of Europe's Mclaren F1 or our Saleen S7 (bleh! Ford ).

Here's a pic of the ZZII, their greatest acheivement. In my opinion it's one of the nicest bodies ever designed.

Numbers for it are 550hp, allegedly 1500lbs, and capable of about 210mph and sub 11sec 1/4 miles.

 

I have to thank Little Goat for letting me borrow the V-Mount IC I got done for him so I can have my own special V mount made.

Don't you see how nice the V mount is? It even turns my hot air intake into a cold air one. =) Now it gets cold air from the nose directly as well.

Chuck Huang