No Start - I cannot figure this out...
08-30-24, 08:33 PM
#26
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
I took the car to the local Mazda dealership. Prior to doing so, I called and asked them if they had anyone familiar with the 13BREW engine, the Service Manager huffed, "Sir! ALL of our technicians are Mazda Certified and are QUITE familiar with the rotary engine!"
I replied okay, just checking...I need a proper diagnosis ASAP.
My son takes over the task of interaction with the service department.
On day one they call him and say, "It appears to be insufficient voltage going to the starter." You can't make this **** up. So my son takes them through the likelihood of the battery being drained due to all the testing he and I had been doing, and he reminded them that we had told them the engine was turning over fine and fast, as we had a booster on it the whole time as well as a new battery.
Oh, they reply...let us look some more.
They just called him a while ago and said, "We think it is a total loss of compression."
Now, I remember back several years ago when the engine 'blew', it lost apex and side seals from several rotor faces, but would still run, albeit EXTREMELY roughly.
The car SOUNDS like it has compression, though admittedly I didn't do a compression test, didn't even pull a plug out. I suppose it COULD be the issue, but the way the car died according to my son sure doesn't support that. He wasn't boosting it, just driving down the road, and it just shut off.
My confidence in the dealership's technicians is not high, let's just put it that way.
I replied okay, just checking...I need a proper diagnosis ASAP.
My son takes over the task of interaction with the service department.
On day one they call him and say, "It appears to be insufficient voltage going to the starter." You can't make this **** up. So my son takes them through the likelihood of the battery being drained due to all the testing he and I had been doing, and he reminded them that we had told them the engine was turning over fine and fast, as we had a booster on it the whole time as well as a new battery.
Oh, they reply...let us look some more.
They just called him a while ago and said, "We think it is a total loss of compression."
Now, I remember back several years ago when the engine 'blew', it lost apex and side seals from several rotor faces, but would still run, albeit EXTREMELY roughly.
The car SOUNDS like it has compression, though admittedly I didn't do a compression test, didn't even pull a plug out. I suppose it COULD be the issue, but the way the car died according to my son sure doesn't support that. He wasn't boosting it, just driving down the road, and it just shut off.
My confidence in the dealership's technicians is not high, let's just put it that way.
I had a "veteran" Mazda tech tell me in the mid 2000s that rebuilt rotary engines didn't last more than 1,000 miles, and that I should buy a factory keg.
If it sounds like it has compression, it has enough compression to start while cold. Hot starts and driving are another story.
You say it has spark, but do you mean you can visually see a spark, or that the engine will catch when you use lighter fluid?
Because seeing spark and having a good spark are two different things. A single loose ground can make all the difference in the world.
When the fuel pump is running, do you get fuel mist when you turn the car over with the plugs out (and spark disabled)?
Assuming you have fuel pressure, if you aren't getting fuel mist, the most likely cause is that your injectors aren't getting a signal.
Unless the fuel filter is clogged or something.
That would at least narrow it down.
08-31-24, 03:04 AM
#30
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
The alternator is completely irrelevant in a no-start situation. If you have enough battery to crank the car, you have more than enough to run it.
08-31-24, 10:13 AM
#31
Constant threat
Thread Starter
I have no confidence that they even know HOW to check compression on a rotary, given their lack of diagnostics skills so far.
One of the more frustrating things about this whole deal with the service department is that I gave VERY detailed explanations of all I had done in my trouble shooting, referencing the various sections of the FSM and the procedures outlined therein. I told them the engine only had about 20,000 miles on it. The service manager took notes of this.
Then when the car arrived and they were talking to my son the questions were, "so...has it ever ran?" and statements like, "oh, it has over 100,000 miles on it, probably definitely needs a rebuild...these engines just don't last that long..." and "have you tried putting a new battery in?", **** like that.
I wonder if there are any good mechanics even left in the Wichita, Kansas area? Seems like, back in the day, there were a few in the Topeka/Kansas City area.
One of the more frustrating things about this whole deal with the service department is that I gave VERY detailed explanations of all I had done in my trouble shooting, referencing the various sections of the FSM and the procedures outlined therein. I told them the engine only had about 20,000 miles on it. The service manager took notes of this.
Then when the car arrived and they were talking to my son the questions were, "so...has it ever ran?" and statements like, "oh, it has over 100,000 miles on it, probably definitely needs a rebuild...these engines just don't last that long..." and "have you tried putting a new battery in?", **** like that.
I wonder if there are any good mechanics even left in the Wichita, Kansas area? Seems like, back in the day, there were a few in the Topeka/Kansas City area.
09-01-24, 09:42 PM
#32
I don't think diagnosing a no-start condition should need a rotary specialist, but modern dealership techs are too reliant on onboard diagnostic scans to be effective trying to troubleshoot a pre-1996 car. If you can find a local hotrod/musclecar shop that does both carburetors and standalone EFI swaps like Holley or Motec or Fueltech, those guys should know how to find why your fuel-injected car doesn't start. The engine just needs compression, air, close-enough fuel mixture, and a correctly-timed spark to run. Before you start, be sure the battery is charged. If you don't own a battery charger, a trickle-charger that can sit overnight is a nice thing to have for cars that sit for days or weeks without driving.
If you suspect a compression problem, the least-effort thing to try might be posting a video of the engine cranking on the starter so people here can to tell you if it sounds wrong.
Or do a poor-man's compression test listening for the whoosh-whoosh-whoosh sound:
Or get a piston-engine compression tester and take a video so you can replay it in slow motion:
Air is a little harder to test, but you can usually hold you foot around 5% throttle in case the idle air control valve is somehow not getting power or signal or is mechanically stuck shut. Don't hold your foot all the way to the floor, this usually puts the ECU in a 'clear flood' mode which will not inject any fuel.
Fuel is hard to measure precisely, but if you can smell fuel at the exhaust pipe after cranking the engine that's a good sign. You can also remove the spark plugs and see if they are completely dry or smell like fuel.
Spark timing might be the hardest, since it's not something most gearheads have to do on fuel-injected setups. It's probably easier to just proactively swap in a fresh set of spark plugs and spark plug wires. If you want to check timing, get a timing light from the auto parts store or motorcycle parts store, ideally you want one that simply flashes when there is a spark. Dialback or digital features are not helpful for testing when an engine is cranking over slowly on the starter. Clamp around the front trailing plug wire, point it at the crankshaft pulley, and there is a notch on the pulley (near the trigger teeth) that represents -20 degrees (20 degrees after TDC). When cranking the engine, the timing light should flash each time the ECU commands a spark from the front trailing coil. When that flash happens, the notch on the pulley should be pretty near the indicator on the front cover. The timing light might not be very accurate when the engine is spinning slowly on the starter, especially if it's a digital timing light with dialback (those are useful for adjusting distributors, but only after the engine is running and idling). I don't know the exact timing the ECU will use when cranking, but my guess is something between TDC (0 degrees advance) and -20 so you should expect the indicator to line up within one tooth of the notch. There are 12 teeth on the pulley, so each tooth is spaced about 30 degrees apart.
This video is NOT a good how-to for checking timing, but in some frames you can see the timing notch on the crankshaft pulley and the triangle-shaped indicator on the front cover.
If you think you have compression and air and spark but not sure about fuel, removing the intake pipe and spraying some starting fluid into the open throttle might help. I haven't tried this myself, this might be where an experienced musclecar shop would be helpful.
If you suspect a compression problem, the least-effort thing to try might be posting a video of the engine cranking on the starter so people here can to tell you if it sounds wrong.
Or do a poor-man's compression test listening for the whoosh-whoosh-whoosh sound:
Air is a little harder to test, but you can usually hold you foot around 5% throttle in case the idle air control valve is somehow not getting power or signal or is mechanically stuck shut. Don't hold your foot all the way to the floor, this usually puts the ECU in a 'clear flood' mode which will not inject any fuel.
Fuel is hard to measure precisely, but if you can smell fuel at the exhaust pipe after cranking the engine that's a good sign. You can also remove the spark plugs and see if they are completely dry or smell like fuel.
Spark timing might be the hardest, since it's not something most gearheads have to do on fuel-injected setups. It's probably easier to just proactively swap in a fresh set of spark plugs and spark plug wires. If you want to check timing, get a timing light from the auto parts store or motorcycle parts store, ideally you want one that simply flashes when there is a spark. Dialback or digital features are not helpful for testing when an engine is cranking over slowly on the starter. Clamp around the front trailing plug wire, point it at the crankshaft pulley, and there is a notch on the pulley (near the trigger teeth) that represents -20 degrees (20 degrees after TDC). When cranking the engine, the timing light should flash each time the ECU commands a spark from the front trailing coil. When that flash happens, the notch on the pulley should be pretty near the indicator on the front cover. The timing light might not be very accurate when the engine is spinning slowly on the starter, especially if it's a digital timing light with dialback (those are useful for adjusting distributors, but only after the engine is running and idling). I don't know the exact timing the ECU will use when cranking, but my guess is something between TDC (0 degrees advance) and -20 so you should expect the indicator to line up within one tooth of the notch. There are 12 teeth on the pulley, so each tooth is spaced about 30 degrees apart.
This video is NOT a good how-to for checking timing, but in some frames you can see the timing notch on the crankshaft pulley and the triangle-shaped indicator on the front cover.
If you think you have compression and air and spark but not sure about fuel, removing the intake pipe and spraying some starting fluid into the open throttle might help. I haven't tried this myself, this might be where an experienced musclecar shop would be helpful.
09-01-24, 11:35 PM
#33
I think OP at the beginning said there was no power to the fuel pump at the fuel pump end. Was that remedied, and now the car will still not fire up?
Here is my story: llast January i went to pick my car from the shop. It started instantly but within a QUICK minute stalled out and would not fire up again. Figured it was flooded and what followed was a 30 hour exercise to deflood and get it running again.
After trying many things * we finally co0ncluded I had got a bad tank of gas just before going to the shop and that weak coils made the weak gas situation worse.
We remedied that, but still no catch. The next guess was maybe leaky injectors flooding the car before we could get it to fire. The remedy was to remove the ISC and let air pour in.
That worked.
(* "many things included: plugs-out deflood procedure maybe 12 times with several new sets of plugs, changed MAP sensor, changed TPS, tried alternate ECU, tested spark at coils, tested power at injectors, tested fuel flow, replaced vac hose to FPR. and more.)
Here is my story: llast January i went to pick my car from the shop. It started instantly but within a QUICK minute stalled out and would not fire up again. Figured it was flooded and what followed was a 30 hour exercise to deflood and get it running again.
After trying many things * we finally co0ncluded I had got a bad tank of gas just before going to the shop and that weak coils made the weak gas situation worse.
We remedied that, but still no catch. The next guess was maybe leaky injectors flooding the car before we could get it to fire. The remedy was to remove the ISC and let air pour in.
That worked.
(* "many things included: plugs-out deflood procedure maybe 12 times with several new sets of plugs, changed MAP sensor, changed TPS, tried alternate ECU, tested spark at coils, tested power at injectors, tested fuel flow, replaced vac hose to FPR. and more.)
09-02-24, 01:31 PM
#34
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
OK I breezed through the thread, but I have seen MANY cases of rebuilt/cleaned injectors locking up after sitting for a while. Like the ECU is telling them to fire but they are stuck closed.
Spray some starting fluid into the throttle body when cranking. If it tries to start on that you've got good ignition. If you hear the fuel pump running that's good, if you have good fuel pressure that's even better.
My money is on locked up injectors.
And, yeah, dealerships in general aren't wizards, they typically know how to do general maintenance and work on newer stuff. Deep dive troubleshooting they will not be able to help with, even less so on an engine that they stopped putting in new cars in 2011.
Dale
Spray some starting fluid into the throttle body when cranking. If it tries to start on that you've got good ignition. If you hear the fuel pump running that's good, if you have good fuel pressure that's even better.
My money is on locked up injectors.
And, yeah, dealerships in general aren't wizards, they typically know how to do general maintenance and work on newer stuff. Deep dive troubleshooting they will not be able to help with, even less so on an engine that they stopped putting in new cars in 2011.
Dale
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b3delta (09-04-24)
09-02-24, 02:55 PM
#35
Racecar - Formula 2000
OP said his son was driving and it was running fine but just suddenly quit - doesn't sound like a stuck fuel injector issue.
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bajaman (09-02-24)
09-02-24, 05:22 PM
#36
Constant threat
Thread Starter
This whole saga is going to become a book someday. I believe there is a unique 'profile' if you will to what the 13BREW will show on a compression test. I need to go dig through some old threads on this. Tomorrow we talk to the service tech again. The fact they went straight to "yep, needs rebuilt", tells me they are seeing dollar signs. I am just cynical I guess. I don't have an open checkbook for this car, my son isn't in a good place financially at this time, moved out of his condo and into a home with HOA restrictions (e.g., can't have a dead car sitting out front), no garage, etc. I'd offered to keep it at my house, that way I could tinker with it off and on. I guess we'll see what tomorrow brings.
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gracer7-rx7 (09-03-24)
09-03-24, 10:14 AM
#37
@bajaman
https://www.jesseprathermotorsports.com/ is in Topeka. Call and ask if he has any recommendations. He has some knowledge of rotaries but mostly focuses on other stuff these days but he is in that area and probably knows someone.
https://www.jesseprathermotorsports.com/ is in Topeka. Call and ask if he has any recommendations. He has some knowledge of rotaries but mostly focuses on other stuff these days but he is in that area and probably knows someone.
09-04-24, 09:01 AM
#38
It was working and died while driving.
Popped fuse
Dead relay
Burnt circuit board component
wiring - broken, worn through
ECM did a bit flip (not likely but possible)
It's 99% an electrical problem, and the way they make cars and program ECMs, a lot is intertwined.
What are your crank angle sensors looking like? If either of those isn't communicating that'll stop the engine from firing.
Can you give us a summary of everything you tested so it's all in one spot? What all is done to the car? Still running emissions stuff? Sequential, simplified, single?
Popped fuse
Dead relay
Burnt circuit board component
wiring - broken, worn through
ECM did a bit flip (not likely but possible)
It's 99% an electrical problem, and the way they make cars and program ECMs, a lot is intertwined.
What are your crank angle sensors looking like? If either of those isn't communicating that'll stop the engine from firing.
Can you give us a summary of everything you tested so it's all in one spot? What all is done to the car? Still running emissions stuff? Sequential, simplified, single?
09-04-24, 10:33 AM
#39
@bajaman
https://www.jesseprathermotorsports.com/ is in Topeka. Call and ask if he has any recommendations. He has some knowledge of rotaries but mostly focuses on other stuff these days but he is in that area and probably knows someone.
https://www.jesseprathermotorsports.com/ is in Topeka. Call and ask if he has any recommendations. He has some knowledge of rotaries but mostly focuses on other stuff these days but he is in that area and probably knows someone.
09-04-24, 06:08 PM
#41
Constant threat
Thread Starter
It was working and died while driving.
Popped fuse
Dead relay
Burnt circuit board component
wiring - broken, worn through
ECM did a bit flip (not likely but possible)
It's 99% an electrical problem, and the way they make cars and program ECMs, a lot is intertwined.
What are your crank angle sensors looking like? If either of those isn't communicating that'll stop the engine from firing.
Can you give us a summary of everything you tested so it's all in one spot? What all is done to the car? Still running emissions stuff? Sequential, simplified, single?
Popped fuse
Dead relay
Burnt circuit board component
wiring - broken, worn through
ECM did a bit flip (not likely but possible)
It's 99% an electrical problem, and the way they make cars and program ECMs, a lot is intertwined.
What are your crank angle sensors looking like? If either of those isn't communicating that'll stop the engine from firing.
Can you give us a summary of everything you tested so it's all in one spot? What all is done to the car? Still running emissions stuff? Sequential, simplified, single?
I gave it to my son 3 years ago and it was whilst he was driving it one night that it just...died, like turning off the switch. No banging or bucking or drama of any sort. He replaced the fuel pump and we replaced the fuel pump relay and tested the EGI and circuit opening relays per the FSM.
The issues with the power to the fuel pump are documented earlier in the thread. I didn't get a chance to talk to the service manager/tech today as I was just too busy.
Depending on what my son decides to do, I would really like to have it towed to my house so I can tinker with it. Never thought to try Starting Fluid as I had in my mind that was A Bad Thing For Rotary Engines.
09-04-24, 06:45 PM
#42
Thanks, it's good to be able to see everything that's been done.
I'd bust out the meter and start checking all the sensors starting with the 2 crank angle ones.
Then ECU, CPU2, Joint Box, and the clutch interlock switch could use a set of eyes on em too.
Have you tried bypassing the fuel pump resistor completely? The ECU may all of a sudden not like that circuit....thinking out loud here.
I'd bust out the meter and start checking all the sensors starting with the 2 crank angle ones.
Then ECU, CPU2, Joint Box, and the clutch interlock switch could use a set of eyes on em too.
Have you tried bypassing the fuel pump resistor completely? The ECU may all of a sudden not like that circuit....thinking out loud here.
09-04-24, 06:51 PM
#43
Senior Member
About 20K on a new Mazda short block. Mild streetport. '99 spec turbos. Thermal pellet delete, Stock injectors rebuilt at time of engine rebuild. Mostly new "rats nest" components, all Viton hoses. All other hoses and all belts replaced. Upgraded 3-row radiator. Air box mod to draw in additional cold air from behind front fascia. K&N filter. Pettit downpipe. Racing Beat Dual stainless exhaust. Stock ECU. All the normally replaced items like fuel pulsation dampener replaced at time of rebuild, basically everything was returned to a 'better-than-new' condition. Car ran flawlessly and very, very strong whilst I owned it.
I gave it to my son 3 years ago and it was whilst he was driving it one night that it just...died, like turning off the switch. No banging or bucking or drama of any sort. He replaced the fuel pump and we replaced the fuel pump relay and tested the EGI and circuit opening relays per the FSM.
The issues with the power to the fuel pump are documented earlier in the thread. I didn't get a chance to talk to the service manager/tech today as I was just too busy.
Depending on what my son decides to do, I would really like to have it towed to my house so I can tinker with it. Never thought to try Starting Fluid as I had in my mind that was A Bad Thing For Rotary Engines.
I gave it to my son 3 years ago and it was whilst he was driving it one night that it just...died, like turning off the switch. No banging or bucking or drama of any sort. He replaced the fuel pump and we replaced the fuel pump relay and tested the EGI and circuit opening relays per the FSM.
The issues with the power to the fuel pump are documented earlier in the thread. I didn't get a chance to talk to the service manager/tech today as I was just too busy.
Depending on what my son decides to do, I would really like to have it towed to my house so I can tinker with it. Never thought to try Starting Fluid as I had in my mind that was A Bad Thing For Rotary Engines.
my car had an intermittent no start issue and suddenly died on the road on several occasions because an intermittent short in the coolant temp sensor made the idle speed control valve go full open and stall the car out with too much air getting past the throttle body. If your sensor has a full short and is reporting -38c to the ecu then it may cause the same issue on your car. There are other reasons the iscv might be letting a lot of air past the throttle body but that sensor is why mine was doing it.
you can test by replacing the coolant temp sensor, or try taking off the iscv and covering up the port to see if the car will catch. Starter fluid may have a similar effect by richening the fuel mixture.
If its not fuel delivery, and not too much air getting in the engine while cranking then probably electrical, ignition or compression
Last edited by Oppai; 09-04-24 at 06:58 PM.
09-04-24, 07:16 PM
#44
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
the fact that the fuel pump isn't getting power, but the car also won't start with the fuel pump is running, is interesting.
ECM did a bit flip (not likely but possible)
checking for fuel fumes and using starter fluid should have been some of the first things they tried.
don't bother doing this to solve a no-start with no combustion. it would be a waste of time and money.
the car would also start fine with a bad temp sensor. the problem is when it warms up.
the complete lack of partial combustion is indicative that it's not getting fuel.
you should get some partial combustion even with a weak spark and bad compression.
Last edited by Valkyrie; 09-04-24 at 07:25 PM.
09-06-24, 03:49 AM
#48
Rotary Freak
Originally Posted by bajaman
Immediately thought fuel pump so changed that,
Other than that, if he's financially stressed and parking on the street, any dodgy alarm or stereo install in the last 3 years?
09-06-24, 01:45 PM
#49
Here is the email for the shop fender cover thing.
Ridies.com@gmail.com;
and Website:
https://ridies.com/
I don't see the item listed, so it might be discontinued, which would be too bad.
Seller referred to them as : "Service Covers".
Ridies.com@gmail.com;
and Website:
https://ridies.com/
I don't see the item listed, so it might be discontinued, which would be too bad.
Seller referred to them as : "Service Covers".
Last edited by Redbul; 09-06-24 at 01:53 PM.
09-10-24, 06:09 PM
#50
Constant threat
Thread Starter
Was that the supra pump you'd run when not submerged in fuel? We did have a supra pump that was seemingly fine until several minutes of running, then it presented with all sorts of intermittent annoying issues. I think what caused that, was short term fuel surge starvation in a previous month.
Other than that, if he's financially stressed and parking on the street, any dodgy alarm or stereo install in the last 3 years?
Other than that, if he's financially stressed and parking on the street, any dodgy alarm or stereo install in the last 3 years?
So...is it safe to use ether (starting fluid) for test purposes? As I said earlier, somewhere in my memory it seems there was a thread...maybe 20 year ago now...about using caution when doing this or NOT to do it as one 'backfire' and there go the apex seals...
?
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