I threw a web rage because you not only raised the bs flag but said I pulled info out of my ***. Two assertions that were just plain wrong. And at the same time, you didn't bother to back up your BS flag with any factual information coming from someone with more rotary knowledge/experience than yourself. That's why I was angry. And thinking about my response, perhaps I should have been a bit more kind but given your past record with more than a few individuals on this list, I let you have it. See the thing is, when someone on the list who I've known over the years to be competent in their skills, I trust their judgement. Manny is one of those individuals. You are not. I have tried to offer as much help and insight as I can based on my experiences over the past five years with my 7 and I've done quite a bit of tinkering and gathered much knowledge over the years from numerous sources whom I trust. Sorry, but I"m done with you. You haven't provided one real fact of your own or bothered to look anything up. One could argue you are all heresay and nothing more as well. So what's the point really? I guess it's that you can make up "facts" to suit your needs just as easily as anyone else on the list. My only argument was that there isn't a cure all solution. Only a properly engineered and functioning coolant system prevents a rotary from running too hot. Plain and simple. Evans is not a magic bullet. If your Evans coolant levels are at 140 Celcius, other components inside the engine, including the oil system, are out of their optimal temperature range. Don't come crying when you loose a side, corner or even apex seal due to a flattened spring. Ok, you've eliminated the localized hot spot...now your entire engine is operating in a thermal range 40 to 60 degrees outside it's optimal range. Sounds like a recipie for detonation to me...but of course you pull timing out, enrich your fuel maps, etc...to compensate. Still sound like it's a good deal? How much experience do you have tuning rotaries? Ever messed with a PFC and datalogit? Ever notice there's a function to pull timing when water temperatures reach a certain level? Ever wonder why they offer that? No, I suppose not. No one knows more than you. Well Mr. Smartypants, this Bud Light is for you.

 

i think it's funny you guys consider coolant temp to be the vital stat

oil temp is more vital IMO

and it is also reflective of a hot or normal motor, so stop posting stats from a temp gauge, post both

 

rx7tt95, forgot to answer your question on "who is RTS3GEN", that's "Art" from Florida.

There are only a handful of FD owners on this Forum who track their cars, and even a smaller number of those FD opentrackers have FMICs. Art and I are probably the only two with FMIC--to my knowledge. RTS3GEN is not a frequent poster, but his knowledge is well-known.

Thanks for the props on your above post. I try to back up anything I say with personal experience...good or bad.

Cheers

 

Evans clearly states, that if you use their product, you'll need a way to keep oil temps from exceeding 250 F.

 

93, that was exactly my point (in several posts!). It's not just the coolant temps that matter (but they do matter).

I'm going to have to hunt Art down...the name sounds very very familiar. I too have a front mount btw...:-) Same as you I believe, 2 row GReddy. I guess my real question would be is it possible, with a front mount, to run Evans and keep the coolant temps within an acceptable (to me) range? Any trouble running 100% coolant at a track event? I know most sanctioning bodies frown on it. Not sure what my group would say (www.performance-drivers-club.com). It's frequently, well ALWAYS 93+ down here during the summer months and on-track temps are even worse. There was a three rotor guy running at Sebring a while back with a front mount. He'd run 5 or 6 hard laps and come in to cool off.

Hey, you've earned the compliment. I picked your brain dozens of times over the past two years regarding offsets, tire setup, etc...You have always been exceptionally helpful.

 

1. 140C is 284F. I don't know of anyone running 284F. 265F is more common. I have never gotten to 265 yet. You're not very honest intellectually are you. You started the post with 240F and now it has creeped upward to 284F. Next time it's 375F??

2. The fan high speed is set for 236F so it is not out of the realm of possibility that the FD was designed to run close to 240F. My PFC does ignition retard at 120C. I have the datalogit and have modified this setting. Fan is set to run immediately at 200F.

3. You're right, Idon't have any experience tuning rotary. But neither have I blown engines tuning. If I remember correctly, didn't you blow at least one tuning with a T-78?? Just b/c one can play with a keyboard, does it make him an expert?

4. I do play a little with the datalogit by interpolating a map tuned by KDR (rich) and a map supposedly tuned by SR (leaner). I have an Aquamist 2S(uninstalled) just in case knock level goes above 40. Does that make me an expert?

5. We still don't have an answer from you regarding factual basis for the critical temp of 240F where supposedly there will be runaway expansion of Aluminum as compared to the cast-iron plates. This assertion stands unsupported even though the car is designed to run close to this temperature as it came from the factory.

6. FWIW, Ferrari runs their F1 cooling system at 3 bar with pure water. Boiling point for water under 3 bar is about 275F.

 

First engine was the original. Bought at 30K. Failed at 50K.

Second engine was a reman. Failed at 45K. It turns out that this engine had the marks one make when rebuilding engine. It had two marks, meaning that the parts are being used the third time around. Front rotor coolant seals. Never went above 230 until the it started not to return coolant to the engine. Then one day, the temp gauge went to hot even though the VDO gauge said 230F. I did a block well, got me through another year. It ended up sucking so much coolant, 1 gallon every 10 miles that I decided to replace the engine and turbos.

I'm on the third engine. This one is from Malloy. Looks like brand new housings. CAn't tell about the rotors though but chances they are new. Vacuum 19 at 900 rpm idle.

 

Point #2. I think the fan is set for 226F, not 236F.

 

1) Yeah got a bit zealous there...260F is pretty darn close to 265. Splitting hairs but 140C is way too much. Next time your car is running at 260F, pull over, shut the car off, and turn it right back on. Read your temp gauge on the PFC. Have you pulled your engine apart to check for any abnormal wear to internal components? How do you know there's no ill effect? Ever have your oil analyzed?

2)PFC base map produces high speed fan at 110C. 265F is 126C (rounded down). Most tuners will turn the fans on at between 84 and 93. I have 87, 87, 93 for my settings, about the same as yours. Running 260F in traffic is really leaving no room for error. Wouldn't you agree? Do you think it's advisable to run a rotary this hot? Do you believe an engine operating in the 180 to 200 degree range is probably going to run more efficiently and has less chance of detonation?

3)Yes, I blew a stock OEM engine running a T78 with a modified, larger compressor wheel. How is this a disadvantage? Do you know WHY it blew? Or do you just naturally summise it was my tuning...Assumptions only make an *** out of you. I've attempted things you haven't even considered trying yet. I live and learn and now tune a few select cars in my area. No blown engines. I'm pretty sure I push the envelope a bit harder and I certainly don't have to justify my decisions, especially to you. I've also never lost an engine due to o-ring failure so I guess I'm a few up on you there. It certainly doesn't make me an expert. I, like most, learn while doing and continue to do so. You simply repeat what you've read on this forum, dogma if you will. By installing Evans, you summise it's cured all your issues, as if regular coolant/water was the cause of all your engine failures. Could it be they weren't rebuilt correctly? Could it be out of the realm of possibility a properly built engine would have not suffered the same fate? I ran the stock twins to the tune of 340hp, daily driven hard, for about 65K before I swapped to the single. I did all the tuning for the twins myself and could click off 7.8's-8.0's in the 1/8 like clockwork on street tires. Never had one single glitch.

4) No, it doesn't make you an expert, so stop talking like one. Just because we can all raise the BS flag and accuse people of pulling crap out of their ***, doesn't mean we should. The discussion would have gone much better if you had simply asked "why?"

5)You misunderstood what I was trying to say. Maybe I wasn't clear. Clearances inside the engine at less than optimal temperatures may become critical due to thermal expansion of internals. Aluminum and iron do not expand at the same rate. Mazda designed the cooling system for the oil and coolant to run at a predetermined temperature range. 260F is not in that range. You yourself experienced 0-ring failure due to what you believe to be heat soak created by the stock twins on shutdown. Hrm...so the engine warped. It is possible that an engine with improperly torqued tension bolts could loose a coolant seal due to different expansion rates when run too hot. That's just one of many, you experienced another. Think Evans is going to solve that issue? How? It's possible to score the plates with the corner seal quite severely when one runs too hot. Ever hear of the Quad 4 from GM? Aluminum head, iron block, went through what, five major redesigns due to head gasket failure issues related to different expansion rates, inadequate head bolt pattern/torque issues. See, the thing is, when I ask an engine builder of some repute, one with say 40 years more engine building experience than myself, I listen. If he states it isn't too bright to run a rotary at those temps for extended periods, I tend to believe him.

6)It ain't worth much in this discussion unless Ferrari's using a rotary engine.

 

Art was running Evans NPG+ and saw consistent 265 F temps @ Homestead. He's switched back to EG/water with some other additive. I don't recall what that additive is at the moment. Art still thinks Evans is good stuff, he just worried about 265 F being too high for his comfort level. Personally I've never run just straight EG, so I can't comment on that. I wasn't aware you're now into opentracking. Glad to know that. Now there are 3 FMIC opentrackers I know of on the Forum! I freely hand out advice, and sometimes, I get lucky, and that advice actually works for people LOL. Glad my advice worked out for ya

By the time I get my motor rebuilt and reinstalled @ Rx7 Store, it will be October before I can tracktest. Ambient temps will drop down to mid 60s, low 70s, so heat won't be an issue then. I'll have to report back next summer on how the Evans NPG+ works out with 88 to 90 F ambient temps.

I wish Po-man would sign up for an opentrack event. Then I could see what hot lapping coolant temps he's seeing at full tilt boogie boost (11-12 psi). I'm not quite sure if Po-man's driving skills will tax his car's cooling capacity...but something tells me he'll drive his FD faster than "Miss Daisy" would LOL

Good luck with your setup. I wish you continued success with it!

 

Yeah I've actually been tracking for about three years. The last real MADS event up at VIR a few years back promted me to start. I'd done a story on the local POC/BOC events for a magazine and brought the 7. Before I knew it, they'd assigned me an instructor, I borowed a helmet, and I was outrunning modified 996's before day's end! At that point I was hooked. Unfortunately, I've become more involved in the biz side of driving events as of late and spend more time working them than driving. If/when I go three rotor, I'll get back to more of the driving stuff.

 

Yup, see my sig below

 

Thanks for posting your thoughts. This thread has become very informative. I completely understand both sides of the story. Luckily, Last night I bought another FD.. I guess now I could try NPG+ in this one and see how it runs.. Its an 93 black base with blown water seal.. almost identical problems with my current car.. only 5-10K on reman.. I'm going to keep it stock for now and maybe put the single and test it on this one.
I forgot to snap pics last night.. Me and academytim when up to Nashville last night to buy it and didn't get home until 3AM.. Exhausted from the trip and completely forgot to snap some pics.. Its currently sitting at my friends in Nashville..

 

herblenny....so you going to go single on what motor(13B or a 20B)?

 

Congrats on the new FD purchase! Good luck with setting up both of them for long life!

 

It will be on a 13b.. I have a 13brew, 1997 that I bought 3 weeks ago.. I'm tearing it apart, port, new seals and going into my new fd... I'm working on a deal with my builder to put and test a single.. as of now, it will have equal length custom manifold build by some Nascar guy with 12 bend mandel bender, tial wastegate hook up, and some sort of garrett single.. I should know approximate size on the turbo in next couple of weeks.. It will be tune hopefully by steve and hope to make 400+. Once its tested and numbers are proven, its going to be sold thru me.. I'm approximating around Nov. or Dec. of this year.. And price will be very competitive.. 2500-3000 for the kit.. which will include manifold, oil lines, wastegate, and the turbo..

 

Interesting reading I just found.. Its called 'Engine Ice'.. I guess its the solution for NPG+ and Water.. Its was posted on some bike cooling webpage.. what do you guys think??

I acturally use de-i water from work not distill.. I'm thinking about trying this..

 

More info..

 

You know, I looked into this product before the NPG+. It's newer and haven't had as much testing as Evans which I remembered was around in the early 80s. The thing that turned me off was that they didn't have alot of data, just alot of hype: I mean look at the trademark "Engine Ice."


Moreover, I don't know what difference it would be from Sierra which uses PG. And remember, whether it's EG or PG mixed with water, the boiling point is going to be 280F anyway. Regardless, there is still water in the system and therefore you still have the problem of loss of nucleate boiling even before you get to 280F.

 

RE: the Engine Ice "hyperbole". I don't think it's the minerals in the water that cause problems. It's the H2O molecules themselves that cause the "electrolysis" of the metal inside the motor and radiator? This is why you mix water with EG, or remove H2O altogether with a waterless coolant like Evans NPG+.

 

Water is probably the best universal solvent. It is my understanding that if you run coolant with distilled water, the distilled water will try and leach out the metals in the block unless the coolant is specifically formulated to prevent this. The end result is that there is a voltage differential across the coolant. Try sticking a multi-meter probe into the coolant while the common probe is on the block, set the meter to 5V. You'll see 0.15 to 0.6 volts depending on the condition of your coolant.

With NPG+ I saw 0.08 V the entirety 10 months it has been in the car.


To correct a misunderstanding by rxtt95, the car sees 240F in traffic with AC on full blast, not 260F. Without AC, it's 220F.

I got to 260F by installing an AST that didn't have a restriction orifice thus bypassing coolant flow. I have only heard of 260F+ on this forum.

 

I've read this as well. I will set the record by pegging the Evans NPG+ coolant temps at 140 C (284 F) with 12 psi boost, hot day, opentrack LOL

 

Congrats on the new fd. Good luck with your new engine. And totally off topic, I'm so envious of your garage in which you actually have room to work on your car with.

 

Thanks!! LOL!, You might want to consider living in AL.. houses are cheap and no emissions.. And hard core rotorheads everywhere!!

 

Another thing about flushing your system.. Sounds like something I might want to try??

also here is the link to the Engine ice site: http://www.engineice.cc/