Mazda Reman Engine - recommendations ?
11-18-02, 05:55 AM
#52
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If you live on the west coast, then Pineapple sounds good. What if you're pressed for time? Does Rob Golden have basic rebuilds ready to ship? I know that KD Rotary is backed up for months...
I have a shop in town that can do the motor swap. I can order a motor through him (a Mazda Reman), and have swap the motor in a matter of weeks.
I guess I don't have the luxury of waiting for the "Jedi Masters" to provide me a rebuild, because my FD is a daily driver...
I have a shop in town that can do the motor swap. I can order a motor through him (a Mazda Reman), and have swap the motor in a matter of weeks.
I guess I don't have the luxury of waiting for the "Jedi Masters" to provide me a rebuild, because my FD is a daily driver...
11-18-02, 05:58 AM
#53
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Anytime you mis-represent yourself just to get what you want, I think that is dishonest...
As a business person yourself, I don't see how you expect to make money if people don't buy your products at full retail?
It's a free country, and I guess it's only illegal if you get caught...
As a business person yourself, I don't see how you expect to make money if people don't buy your products at full retail?
It's a free country, and I guess it's only illegal if you get caught...
11-18-02, 04:13 PM
#54
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hey sleep r1...you can either do it right or do it again in six months or a year like a lot of the guys going with that rebuilt ***** from mazda have to do.
call rotary reliability and racing...they can get you a motor asap and you can get a streetport etc...they have a two year 24k warrantee too 7148398018 ask for nick
j
call rotary reliability and racing...they can get you a motor asap and you can get a streetport etc...they have a two year 24k warrantee too 7148398018 ask for nick
j
11-18-02, 05:10 PM
#55
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Originally posted by artguy
hey sleep r1...you can either do it right or do it again in six months or a year like a lot of the guys going with that rebuilt ***** from mazda have to do.
call rotary reliability and racing...they can get you a motor asap and you can get a streetport etc...they have a two year 24k warrantee too 7148398018 ask for nick
j
hey sleep r1...you can either do it right or do it again in six months or a year like a lot of the guys going with that rebuilt ***** from mazda have to do.
call rotary reliability and racing...they can get you a motor asap and you can get a streetport etc...they have a two year 24k warrantee too 7148398018 ask for nick
j
Last edited by Mr rx-7 tt; 11-18-02 at 05:34 PM.
11-18-02, 05:33 PM
#57
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it depends what you need. argh....3mm can be beneficial to you at times. TRUST ME....I would have not motor if i did not have my 3mm ceramics.
***There are many problems with 3mm seals that non engine builders have no idea about.
1) The oil system is designed for 2mm not 3mm you just increased the sweep area by 50% not to mention the weight..hope you are running an oil adder with your gas.
2) If the tooling is not perfect when cutting the rotor (1/1000) off from corner to corner your engine isn't going to last, the apex seal beats itself up. Time will tell..
3) Stock seals can handle over 1000 hp and why do you think mazda went from n/a cars with 3mm to a higher performance twin turbo car using 2mm..?
4) The 2mm seal is a 3 piece seal and it also seals better and they make more hp...
5) Shops push 3mm seals because they can reclaim bad rotors out of spec....
6) Iannetti makes the ceramic seals and when they let go they totally and completely destroy your engine and turbos...
"I use 3mm Ianetti ONE PIECE which are built for high rpm abuse and also withstand detonation better than stock. mazda builds them to handle higher boost as well."
Ive told this story a hundred times but here ya go....when I got my second batch of **** maps from xs engineering, I went out to test drive the car with my engine builder in the passenger seat. we pulled out of the driveway and at 3000rpms or so there was HUGE detonation under light throttle. the guy that built my new streetported motor was curled up like a fetus in the passenger seat in the biggest cringe I ever saw. His words were to the effect of "good thing you went with the 3mm ceramics because your motor would be gone"..."that was the most detonation Ive ever heard"
the compression is perfect.
**I have seen stock seals take repeated abuse and NOT break also...bottom line tune the car right. I was in my buddies car two weeks ago and he ran it hard and the engine detonated for a solid 4-5 seconds and I mean loud. I told him I bet his engine just went. We stopped and he had a perfect idle...The car has stock 2mm seals.
I know they can break...I saw a broken one in a display once...but they took the abuse and saved me from xs engineerings stupidity.
Im a believer...but they are EXPENSIVE.
**They have poor sealing capabilities and when they let go your motor and turbos are done. They are not worth the money. I wouldn't use them if they were free.
"maz remans are junk...too many guys on the list and the forums over the past four years losing them to make me at all interested in that scam."
**The mazda remans arn't junk.. I have taken apart and ported manywith upgrades to the water/oil system etc.. Almost everyone has all new housings or housings that are in perfect shape. I have yet to disasseble a bad motor. Call up Dave at KDR as he told me he has had the same experience..(PFS said the same).
Chris
***There are many problems with 3mm seals that non engine builders have no idea about.
1) The oil system is designed for 2mm not 3mm you just increased the sweep area by 50% not to mention the weight..hope you are running an oil adder with your gas.
2) If the tooling is not perfect when cutting the rotor (1/1000) off from corner to corner your engine isn't going to last, the apex seal beats itself up. Time will tell..
3) Stock seals can handle over 1000 hp and why do you think mazda went from n/a cars with 3mm to a higher performance twin turbo car using 2mm..?
4) The 2mm seal is a 3 piece seal and it also seals better and they make more hp...
5) Shops push 3mm seals because they can reclaim bad rotors out of spec....
6) Iannetti makes the ceramic seals and when they let go they totally and completely destroy your engine and turbos...
"I use 3mm Ianetti ONE PIECE which are built for high rpm abuse and also withstand detonation better than stock. mazda builds them to handle higher boost as well."
Ive told this story a hundred times but here ya go....when I got my second batch of **** maps from xs engineering, I went out to test drive the car with my engine builder in the passenger seat. we pulled out of the driveway and at 3000rpms or so there was HUGE detonation under light throttle. the guy that built my new streetported motor was curled up like a fetus in the passenger seat in the biggest cringe I ever saw. His words were to the effect of "good thing you went with the 3mm ceramics because your motor would be gone"..."that was the most detonation Ive ever heard"
the compression is perfect.
**I have seen stock seals take repeated abuse and NOT break also...bottom line tune the car right. I was in my buddies car two weeks ago and he ran it hard and the engine detonated for a solid 4-5 seconds and I mean loud. I told him I bet his engine just went. We stopped and he had a perfect idle...The car has stock 2mm seals.
I know they can break...I saw a broken one in a display once...but they took the abuse and saved me from xs engineerings stupidity.
Im a believer...but they are EXPENSIVE.
**They have poor sealing capabilities and when they let go your motor and turbos are done. They are not worth the money. I wouldn't use them if they were free.
"maz remans are junk...too many guys on the list and the forums over the past four years losing them to make me at all interested in that scam."
**The mazda remans arn't junk.. I have taken apart and ported manywith upgrades to the water/oil system etc.. Almost everyone has all new housings or housings that are in perfect shape. I have yet to disasseble a bad motor. Call up Dave at KDR as he told me he has had the same experience..(PFS said the same).
Chris
Last edited by Mr rx-7 tt; 11-18-02 at 05:52 PM.
11-18-02, 05:49 PM
#58
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Here is also a post I agree with from another member (JimLab):
"Yeah, let's start talking about the facts...
Fact: 3mm seals are a waste of time and money. They won't last any longer under detonation than a 2mm seal, and they actually seal worse and cause accelerated wear. If 2mm seals are good enough for Abel Ibarra, they're good enough for you.
2mm seals can handle boost up to 45 psi with adequate fuel, so there's no reason you can't make power with 2mm seals. If you damage a rotor's apex seal channel(s) and it is salvageable, then you might consider having it machined for 3mm seals, but there's no justification for using them otherwise.
Fact: '87-'88 FC turbo rotors are heavier than FD rotors (10.04 lbs. vs. 9.54 lbs.), and the reason shops (like Hayes Rotary) want to use them instead of FD rotors is because they're a lot cheaper and readily available, so they can keep a surplus of pre-machined rotors in stock instead of sending out your FD rotors to be machined. They can also have them machined in bulk, so they save even more money.
Unfortunately for Hayes, 3mm Ianetti ceramic apex seals don't just "drop in", and require custom fitting. One engine they built using the "drop in" method cracked two seals within 500 miles because the tolerances weren't correct. Luckily, we found out about my engine (same seals, same hack assembly job) before any damage was caused, and Hayes was forced to remedy all the short cuts they'd taken in building me a big pile of crap, but that's another story...
Ianetti ceramic apex seals, by the way, will only take a few more pings than a stock seal before breaking, and I know someone who had several sets broken while a well-known (and respected) tuner was tuning his car with a new Motec engine management system (not to be confused with the new TFATF Motec exhaust...). It turned out they had a bad engine harness from Motec, but he said that the seals still only held up to 3 or 4 pings and that was it. They're a huge waste of money, in my opinion, and I'm sorry I let myself be talked into buying a set.
Fact: The reason the FC turbo rotors are more resistant to detonation is because they're also lower compression than FD rotors (8.5:1 vs. 9.0:1). Therefore you may be buying yourself some small margin of error, but you'll have to run more boost to make the same power. Worth it? No, not really. Not to mention that you're slowing your engine down and putting more strain on the eccentric shaft because they're heavier.
My advice? If you have an FD, stick with FD engine parts. If you're having an engine built, stick with 2mm seals and spend the extra money on fuel/engine management. The only way you're really going to have an engine last appreciably longer is by ensuring that it has enough fuel under all conditions (coupled with adequate cooling) to avoid detonation."
"Yeah, let's start talking about the facts...
Fact: 3mm seals are a waste of time and money. They won't last any longer under detonation than a 2mm seal, and they actually seal worse and cause accelerated wear. If 2mm seals are good enough for Abel Ibarra, they're good enough for you.
2mm seals can handle boost up to 45 psi with adequate fuel, so there's no reason you can't make power with 2mm seals. If you damage a rotor's apex seal channel(s) and it is salvageable, then you might consider having it machined for 3mm seals, but there's no justification for using them otherwise.
Fact: '87-'88 FC turbo rotors are heavier than FD rotors (10.04 lbs. vs. 9.54 lbs.), and the reason shops (like Hayes Rotary) want to use them instead of FD rotors is because they're a lot cheaper and readily available, so they can keep a surplus of pre-machined rotors in stock instead of sending out your FD rotors to be machined. They can also have them machined in bulk, so they save even more money.
Unfortunately for Hayes, 3mm Ianetti ceramic apex seals don't just "drop in", and require custom fitting. One engine they built using the "drop in" method cracked two seals within 500 miles because the tolerances weren't correct. Luckily, we found out about my engine (same seals, same hack assembly job) before any damage was caused, and Hayes was forced to remedy all the short cuts they'd taken in building me a big pile of crap, but that's another story...
Ianetti ceramic apex seals, by the way, will only take a few more pings than a stock seal before breaking, and I know someone who had several sets broken while a well-known (and respected) tuner was tuning his car with a new Motec engine management system (not to be confused with the new TFATF Motec exhaust...). It turned out they had a bad engine harness from Motec, but he said that the seals still only held up to 3 or 4 pings and that was it. They're a huge waste of money, in my opinion, and I'm sorry I let myself be talked into buying a set.
Fact: The reason the FC turbo rotors are more resistant to detonation is because they're also lower compression than FD rotors (8.5:1 vs. 9.0:1). Therefore you may be buying yourself some small margin of error, but you'll have to run more boost to make the same power. Worth it? No, not really. Not to mention that you're slowing your engine down and putting more strain on the eccentric shaft because they're heavier.
My advice? If you have an FD, stick with FD engine parts. If you're having an engine built, stick with 2mm seals and spend the extra money on fuel/engine management. The only way you're really going to have an engine last appreciably longer is by ensuring that it has enough fuel under all conditions (coupled with adequate cooling) to avoid detonation."
11-18-02, 05:49 PM
#59
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Dave Barninger of KD Rotary
I've been exchanging emails with Dave Barninger of KD Rotary. He seems quite knowledgeable, and from what I've read from midwest customers, Dave builds a SERIOUS motor.
I've ridden as a passenger in rceron's silver beast at Road America (I was assigned as his instructor) last month, and Ramon was picking up 5th gear and 145 to 150 mph going into Turn 5 and 12 (Canada). Ramon says his motor was from KD Rotary with street port--oil and coolant passages ported, intake and exhaust passages were also ported. Ramon runs a CWC IC, stock twins, and 10.5 psi of boost. Exhaust was downpipe, midpipe, RB catback (remarkably quiet considering it's an open exhaust). I'm not sure what computer he's using.
I think my plan is to do what rceron did, and what Dave recommends--order a Malloy reman, and have Dave tear the reman down, and rebuild it with reliability mods, and street port.
Now I have to figure out what IC, intake, and computer.
Dave likes the Trust/Greedy FMIC 2-row. I'm stuck with a Trust Airinx or some other cone type intake.
BUT--I'm hot on the HMIC made by Rotary Extreme. They also have a cold-air intake....
So many options--so little money and time.
Well, at least I've decided on which motor builder I'm going with KD Rotary all the way
I've ridden as a passenger in rceron's silver beast at Road America (I was assigned as his instructor) last month, and Ramon was picking up 5th gear and 145 to 150 mph going into Turn 5 and 12 (Canada). Ramon says his motor was from KD Rotary with street port--oil and coolant passages ported, intake and exhaust passages were also ported. Ramon runs a CWC IC, stock twins, and 10.5 psi of boost. Exhaust was downpipe, midpipe, RB catback (remarkably quiet considering it's an open exhaust). I'm not sure what computer he's using.
I think my plan is to do what rceron did, and what Dave recommends--order a Malloy reman, and have Dave tear the reman down, and rebuild it with reliability mods, and street port.
Now I have to figure out what IC, intake, and computer.
Dave likes the Trust/Greedy FMIC 2-row. I'm stuck with a Trust Airinx or some other cone type intake.
BUT--I'm hot on the HMIC made by Rotary Extreme. They also have a cold-air intake....
So many options--so little money and time.
Well, at least I've decided on which motor builder I'm going with KD Rotary all the way
11-19-02, 01:04 PM
#61
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rx-tt....you have your arguments. I simply disagree with many things you said. I did my research for months before going with the set I did and my motor is strong and has withstood the detonation from the xs tuning.
if you had a motor built by rr&r and didnt buy new rotors then that is your fault. nick doesnt charge for parts that you say you dont need...ya know what i mean? if you cheap out you gonna pay for it later. you seem to believe that a rebuilt motor should use new rotors...why didnt you pay for new rotors? nick will build you whatever you ask for you know. I wouldnt let anyone else build my motor.
in all my experience with that shop they have always treated me with respect and gave me options. when it came time to do my motor i was given the option of going with new rotors...new housings came with as part of the cost...so did new injectors.
my motor went because of my driving it at the track in high heat....you know what?? NICK warranteed it.
so how you like them apples?
if nick didnt warrantee your motor he had a reason...ive been dealing with that shop for three years and Ive seen them warrantee everything from a motor lost by customer turning up the boost...to the labor on a set of used turbos that the customer brought in and had to be rebuilt...etc...he has always stuck to his word.l He has always been honest and fair with me too.
you sound very convincing...and experienced mrrx. It's good to have guys like you around. You make the arguments you present sound very convincing and valid. It's just that there are a lot of professionals who disagree with you in regards to what seals should be used....and sophmoric me included.
i would buy the ceramics again. they were worth the money to me. they are built for high rpm high boost abuse and the stock 2mm are not. Nick swears by them for the way I drive (and he knows how I drive) and the guys at pineapple racing do too.
this debate does not end...you cant end it with your old arguments. I cant end it with mine.
it is true that different seals are better for different applications. different pros have different feelings on the matter. My motor held up to the abuse because of the seals i have...I wouldnt have gone with anything different.
j
if you had a motor built by rr&r and didnt buy new rotors then that is your fault. nick doesnt charge for parts that you say you dont need...ya know what i mean? if you cheap out you gonna pay for it later. you seem to believe that a rebuilt motor should use new rotors...why didnt you pay for new rotors? nick will build you whatever you ask for you know. I wouldnt let anyone else build my motor.
in all my experience with that shop they have always treated me with respect and gave me options. when it came time to do my motor i was given the option of going with new rotors...new housings came with as part of the cost...so did new injectors.
my motor went because of my driving it at the track in high heat....you know what?? NICK warranteed it.
so how you like them apples?
if nick didnt warrantee your motor he had a reason...ive been dealing with that shop for three years and Ive seen them warrantee everything from a motor lost by customer turning up the boost...to the labor on a set of used turbos that the customer brought in and had to be rebuilt...etc...he has always stuck to his word.l He has always been honest and fair with me too.
you sound very convincing...and experienced mrrx. It's good to have guys like you around. You make the arguments you present sound very convincing and valid. It's just that there are a lot of professionals who disagree with you in regards to what seals should be used....and sophmoric me included.
i would buy the ceramics again. they were worth the money to me. they are built for high rpm high boost abuse and the stock 2mm are not. Nick swears by them for the way I drive (and he knows how I drive) and the guys at pineapple racing do too.
this debate does not end...you cant end it with your old arguments. I cant end it with mine.
it is true that different seals are better for different applications. different pros have different feelings on the matter. My motor held up to the abuse because of the seals i have...I wouldnt have gone with anything different.
j
05-26-04, 07:30 PM
#63
DinoDude
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Artguy. just to add a little additional info, PFS used nothing but the stock seals & Ray Wilson's car put out some 700+ HP. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30+ lbs of boost too, and I think he lost one engine on the dyno in a couple of seasons of serious drag racing . Based on that I would say that stock seals can handle boost. Farrell had an awful lot of experience road racing too. They ONLY use stock seals.
Riceracing was pretty convincing too if you looked at his posts.
Seems to me that at best, the case for non-stock seals is a close call. There are SO many other things to spend money on.
Riceracing was pretty convincing too if you looked at his posts.
Seems to me that at best, the case for non-stock seals is a close call. There are SO many other things to spend money on.
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