Howards right on this ... if 700 was not a BIG step up, we'd already be there.
Our injectors are maxed, the shaft will no doubt begin to flex at anything more as HC has said.
Wheelpsin through third, the rear end also breaks loose shifting into 4th...which is around 112 mph.
Other than the clutch, the drivetrain is stock...how long it will hold up? We'll see. The fact that there is limited traction actually helps.
Yes, 13.5" rears are waiting to be put on ... but there's that little factor of making the widebody allowing them to be road legal, which will take some effort.

So, the next step... 2 piece or custom shaft w/ center bearing, new seals, studs, more fuel, a new drivetrain... Howard hit it.

As far as 700 rwhp being attainable....no question. 800 even.
With an optimum A/F we would most likely see 650 +/- rwhp, at 24 psi with our current setup... with the numbers we were making at progressing boost levels during tuning, we were averaging just under 18 rwhp per psi. Given the motor can handle it, and enough fuel to feed it, 700 would most likely be attained at right around 27-28 psi on the current setup.
Or.....swap out the stock intake manifold and throttle body for a custom piece, and perhaps 700 can be made at 24-25 psi?? Having built, flow tested, and driven countless custom manifolds, I don't see this as being a stretch.
With the GT42, or any other comparable turbocharger, just coming into its own at 20-25 psi, you can see how one could go from 6-700 to 800 real quick.

 

looking at the big picture of all this, is a 500 hp FD even truly streetable? a 375 hp FD will blow 99.9% of the cars off the road is blisteringly fast, unless you live on a drag strip or in a dyno room, you have to wonder what the point of a 500 hp RX-7 really is...I'd more than likely end up dead

 

Once the horsepower bug bites it's hard to stop in the quest for more power. Personally having a low 400 hp car currently at 15 psi, I'm adding aux water injection in the hopes to get close to 500 hp at around 20 psi reliably. After increasing boost from 12 psi which probably had me at mid to high 300's, I can say I couldn't go back to the lower power levels. Granted traction is quite a problem even into 3rd gear, but the amount of acceleration the car has once there's traction is just too much fun. It's already wearing off though, so 500 HP with some good sticky tires sounds like the next big ticket, and hopefully will keep me content for longer then a few days.

While there hasn't been a car I didn't beat (so far), I don't just want to beat 99.9% of cars on the road, I want to annihilate them. Pull away from them like they are sitting still. There will be no difference being streetable from 300-500 hp as the power levels are the same at low rpms. (crappy) Provided the car is still reliable the street aspect of 500 hp is fine.

 

I've decided to go single w/ AI mainly for the reliability, having the huge power on tap is nice but on track I will probably adjust the boost so that grip is pretty good.

 

just a bit of rambling here for a moment which i will probably delete in a bit but...

i found that as i added hp, especially when i got to 500, there were less and less places to use it and i live out in the country... i am not going to be blasting along at 150, which you can get to as fast as you can shift, and have some poor soul pull out of his driveway on a county road.

i want do do 200 in the Texas Mile so my build is purpose driven. i also expect to be able to hook up close to 500 rw at Road America and am interested in the Silver State Classic. there is a problem w gearing and 200 and i am looking at options.

the primary point of AI is making the turbo rotary live a normal life. remember we are talking 159 cubic inches.

stock that's 1.6 flywheel hp per cu inch.

500 rwhp is 575 flywheel hp and that is three point six horsepower per cubic inch!!

your normal 400 rwhp FD is 460 flywheel and 2.9 hp per cubic inch! and we consider that a modestly modded engine.

NOT SO...

this is mega hp for the displacement and it is no wonder that we run into reliability problems....

that of course is where AI enters w it's cooling magic.

i am very excited to see what can be done w FJO's HD AI and water. if RiceRacing can make big hp w water w his system the FJO system should be able to do everybit as well if not better from a response aspect. we will see if you can have it all w water in 09.

i was unable to get thru to FJO yesterday and expect to get the details today..

hc

 

Howard, can you ask them the pricing for a dual nozzle setup (2 x 700cc)? Also, do you think they might give me a better deal if I get the wideband and the AI in one shot?/// i expect to have all the pricing. as far as better deal buying a combo, that would be something you might negotiate w the dealer. i may speak to him also and see what he can do on a package tomorrow. hc///

 

quoted in case Howard deletes it

 

the new generation FJO HD-AI unit w boost control should ship to Alamo Motorsports by the end of January. there have been a few delays so until it's shipped it is just a best guess but appears highly probable.

the kit contains:

a command module, a pump, a solenoid/fuel injector, a plumbing kit w all fittings, a 60 micron filter, a tank w (probably) a low level LED.

the boost control solenoid will be extra and available from FJO. (if you have one it will probably work.)

the module is commanded using a USB cable to your laptop. future upgrades will be able to be downloaded into the module and will be free.

the retailer is: http://www.alamomotorsports.com/FJO/waterinjection.html

details on the (above) page relate to the first gen FJO HD-AI setup. disregard pricing you can learn a great deal about the new gen unit by reading about the first gen unit as there are alot of similarities and there actually is alot of info on FJO's website.

the retailer indicated it could put a "package" together re the HD-AI and FJO wideband. (the units are capable of talking to each other and provide an additional "safeguard.")

hopefully, we will be getting user reports after January.

again, for the record, i am not financially affiliated w either FJO or the retailer other than doing the beta testing.

i have PM'd other AI vendors as well as tuners an invitation to participate in this important thread. my view is that there are many good AI products that can be of great help to FD owners.

hc

 

Howard, after reading this thread I picked up a coolingmist system. It's just the boost /MAP activated system which is tuneable via computer, however the unit looks to be of good quality. The priceing is also very good right now if anyone else wants an entry level setup. ////good move, that is a nice unit and is completely capable of solving the turbo'd rotary's CCP problem./////

Eventually I want my haltech to control HD water injection, but that is down the road.////that works although someone on the board had a malfunction w the FJO solenoid that he was controlling w the Haltech so it will require perhaps some interaction w FJO to work it./////

I can't wait to install this thing. My goal is 450rwhp much less ambitious than others here.////it is my belief that the vast majority on this board would be delighted w a 400 rwhp FD which is close to a rocketship/////

I'm still missing a few pieces including the EGT, on list before spring./////pre turbo loggable EGT really cheap and really important.

the TUNING TRIANGLE is AFR---KNOCK---EGT. howard///

Good luck on your builds everyone!

 

Do you know if the command module allows any wideband input or only FJO wideband specifically?

///i will ask///

 

I asked Howard previously about my AEM wideband 02, and he said it would not be compatible with the FJO unit. However, I spoke to David at Coolingmist earlier this week, and he indicated that you can use their proprietary software to configure a 0-5v input from any wideband 02.

 

donz - Which kit did you get exactly?

Thanks

 

please let's stay on topic. this thread has covered the basics and should move forward discussing AI systems and outcomes. if you wish to discuss other issues start another thread

hc

 

I hope this is on topic Howard, but if it isn't I won't feel bad if you delete the post.

Above when you were replying to my intercoolerless setup, you said that your intercooler reduces your charge temp by 130ish degrees F give or take, and that the cooler the charge the better. Well I think this is true but only to a point. There is a sweet spot for the temp of the air entering the engine. This is discussed over on the Aquamist W/I forums but basically that air from 25-35 degree C is a sweet spot for tuning and engine efficiency.

//// a qualified "i disagree." there may be a "sweet spot" as far as water only and relating soley to the mixing of water w the charge air. and that may be around the 85 F degree mark. as has been stated earlier in this thread water has immense latent heat (cooling) but has poor atomisation qualities. water's primary cooling takes place in the combustion chamber so it is of modest value to monitor what water does in the intake runners. further, i completely disagree w the concept of cooler not being better when viewing the overall AI effect. cooler is better. you can't be too $$$ rich and you can't have too cool an IAT. more oxygen molecules per volume. end of story. /////

I won't butcher the details here, as it has been some time since I did my many hours of research and I would need to refresh myself in order to quote it accurately. The point of my setup was to get the charge temp into that range using A/I alone. The point of eliminating the intercooler was to free up the area behind the radiator for air flow (to cool the engine more efficiently) and also shorten, and reduce the volume, of the charge pipe. This created an engine that ran in the sweet spot as far as AIT and coolant temp. I could have added an intercooler but it was redundant in my case with my particular system.

/// i understand the advantages of not running an IC. my 7.58/186 mph 2 rotor friend who runs all methanol and makes 1000 rwhp runs no IC. the methanol cools so well you really shouldn't place your hand on his intake manifold after a run. that said, there may be a new trend in cutting edge meth drag racers... the re-installation of intercoolers...

Anthony posts:

From Ken Scheepers...
"Consequently, I have made changes to the turbo combination and gone back to what I know works. This combination will be tested in Aruba for the first time in a few weeks and I am very optimistic the Nuclear Banana will back to equal or better performance, especially with the intercooler that takes the 443 degree (F) air leaving the turbo and reducing it down to 170 degrees entering the new Gato Performance intake manifold. Depending on the air temperatures we will experience for the night racing, these temperatures may improve. One thing is for sure, the engine uses a lot less fuel than it used to, to make the same or slightly better power."

most of us aren't going to run just meth (no pump gas), aren't going to run 45 psi boost. we are driving lots in vacuum. an IC works all of the time. my intake air temps BEFORE the meth injection at 20 psi are around 90 F. i suspect, but don't know, that the air coming from my compressors pre IC is close to 300 F. i'll take the 200 degree discount. hc////

I wanted to do a lot more research with a more accurate AIT sensor that had faster response but unfortunately didn't get that opportunity. Also a redesign utilizing a proper V mount and pure water injection would have been my next step. Hopefully RCCAZ-1 (whom bought my HFS-5 from me) will be doing just that in the near future and I will again be able to experiment with him and his setup. We will see. As long as the intercooler is size appropriately to control charge temp, pure water does offer the benefits of not replacing gasoline as a fuel and gasoline alone does offer increased power potential over substituting methanol. Whether or not the chemical theroy can be matched with an application at this point, I dont know, but in the mean time you can always institute a little methanol into the mixture for its cooling effects.

Howard, have you experimented with water only or water/meth mixtures? What made you decide to go with such an extreme meth only system?

it is my belief that the rotary can make 500 rwhp all day long if properly supported. AI is essential to calm the huge CCP associated w such a small displacement making so much power. if you look around you will find that while water might accomplish this methanol is doing it everywhere. for higher hp alcohol is a no brainer. maybe it gets done w water but i did not want to speculate. i do not see my system as extreme given my objectives.... 500 knock free rwhp.////

In Wisconsin you could probably rebuild your fuel system with some additional injectors, run a nice engine management to control them appropriately and then just use E85. The power potential there is enormous but you will be using a lot of fuel. It would save on packaging a meth tank into the trunk by using the existing tank and fuel system and would eliminate some of the peripheral systems that are what make up the meth injection system. You would have control over the fuel maps the same as you would with a normal programmable ecu. The fuel/air flow would be the limit as far as power. I know some have had very good success with E85...

yes, i could have done something w E85 as it contains the magic of alcohol. it made more sense to me to use alcohol under boost where it works best. there are alot of re-engineering areas w E85 if you do it right such as relocating the fuel injectors location in the runners etc. E85 is an option. i chose another route.////

I think water with regular gasoline (so not using premium fuel) is the other direction and that is where I was trying to go. Take out a little timing prior to boost, use the higher energy content fuel and use the water to supress the knock in boost. It would also reduce fuel costs b a little bit. I like all the alternatives. I want to boost another car just so I can fool around with A/I again!

///there are a number of AI options and hopefully boardmembers will explore them and share.////

 

The coolingmist system basically takes a 0-5v input, and a boost (direct mechanical) input. I am unsure of what output the AEM has (should be 0-5v as you can rig it up to any guage right?). From what I gather, the system basically works like a standard guage in that you wire in a sensor that sends 0-5 volts, and it sends outputs to the pump in accordance to the map you set. I don't think I cares what it get's the 0-5 volt from be it MAP or MAF or wideband or even throttle position as long as you program the MAP as to what to do. This is the impression I got after reading the manual a few times.

send pm if you need other info... or take over to aux injection for specifics on coolingmist

 

Howard are you running a 4 rotor? You should be making a lot more than 500 hp.
Barry

///Barry has got one of those high performance but evil minds... while this has been covered earlier in the thread here's the skinny on the size of the rotary. based on rotating the motor and measuring the air injested Barry is correct. the motor is 1.3 liters or 79 cubic inches. no argument from me. however a 4 cycle motor fires the spark plug every other time the piston reaches TDC. our rotarys fire every time the rotor reaches TDC. they are 2 cycle motors. i choose to compare based on combustion events and we have twice as many as a 4 cycle motor. perhaps this is merely a philosophical disagreement and if more debate on the subject is wished, although i can't imagine what else there is to say on the matter, a new thread could be started. the reason i bring up the rotary displacement is to emphasize how much hp we are generating out of so little displacement, i e 400 hp out of 159 cu inches is generating alot of CCP that needs to be cooled w AI. howard////

 

FYI, there's a pretty interesting thread going in the AI section...

https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/what-intercooler-809559/

while the thread considers whether an IC is needed w AI and presents some interesting info Brian Caine shares his data re the IAT (intake air temperature) effect of running his air intake out of the engine compartment to the outside... he finds a 40 degree drop in intake temps!!!

i currently run a modded Pettit setup on mine which i suspect actually draws mostly engine compartment air. (around 160 degrees). based on Brian's data i will be re-engineering my setup to draw from the outside.

every withdrawn degree helps there are 40 of them waiting to be gone.

hc

 

Howard,

Sanctioning bodies would tend to agree with you because of the little engines hefty output. However displacement is a scientific measurement not up for opinions. My question to you would be, what size would Felix Wankel and Kenichi Yamamoto say it is?
Sorry to be off topic, I just admire your threads and don't want you to lead others astray. Your opinion has probably been tainted by SCCA racing regulations. Those regulations are focus on equal competition but are not the last word on engineering matters.

Evil Mind,
Barry

 

I think I was one of the first to explore this on the FD and with a true cold air the difference is substantial. Cooler in = cooler out no matter how you slice it. With no intercooler the importance of a true CAI is amplified substantially.

/// i remember your cold air exploits and the fact you were always doing interesting things and sharing. i wonder if there is a connection between the fact you live in a state where in some areas you can cook a steak on the sidewalk and your interest in cool air...////

 

I always thought that water was the best knock surpressant? Methanol has its cooling advantages but isn't as efficient at surpressing knock...hence the high volumes needed. Idealy I would think a creative system using both water and methanol (pure concentrations, injected seperately at different locations) would be the best (most efficient) setup.///water and alcohol work in very different ways to surpress knock. one literally just drops temperatures and one, in addition to massively cooling the IAT, also surpresses knock due to it's octane (rate of burn). i would hesitate to get into it further in this thread but just say they both work well for their application. i absolutely don't want to get into a water-alcohol fracas.///

 

before i continue i would like to say to howard that his OP was LEGENDARY! thank you very much for this eye opening information anyways moving on...

i am already excited about the prospect of adding an AI system to my FD and i would like to list the mods i have to see where i would stand. as of this writing my rebuilt engine (has little over 2.2k miles) is not yet tuned altho i will be getting that done courtesy of BDC later this month. also, this thread makes me even more glad that i purchased a single turbo FD. modifications are:


large streetport (have a pic of early stage i can PM you with if needed)
3mm Apex Seals with dual springs
3" downpipe, its straight exhaust thank you TX for no emissions laws
Garrett T62-1 turbo (had it rebuilt, they marked it as TO4 im not sure if there is a diff)
FMIC
NGK wires
NGK platinum spark plugs, heat range 9
NGK wideband o2 kit (powerdex)
stock primaries and 850cc secondaries
Apexi AVCR boost controller set for 12psi
fuel surge tank in the trunk
battery re-located to passenger bin
wolf 3D version 3 EMS

i am not sure about the horsepower and torque specs yet but id be happy with just a solid 400-450hp range. thats what i have planned anyway after i get better fuel injectors so i can safely run 15psi as well.. im very much interested in scoring that FJO kit or something that will surely work with what i have.

once again, thanks for this information i think this deserves a huge copy & paste into a word processor file

 

I believe this is Howard I am quoting below.

Howard - are you saying you believe more than 50k miles of use is possible out of a 500rwhp 2 rotor motor?

///having spent my entire career in the financial markets i am well aware about the value of futuristic statements... the reason why i made the statement re a 500 hp rotary was that i recently yanked my 4 year 14,000 mile motor just to see what was going on inside. at the time i pulled it, it was running perfectly. 17 inches of vacuum at around 1000 rpm idle. it has completed between 100 and 120 4th gear 2000-8000+ dyno pulls. i figured it would be in good shape since my egts (1600 preturbo) and knock (6000-8250 average knock from Power FC was 9) were always in great shape. the engine was close to carbon free. there was zero carbon in any of the seal grooves. thanks to the AI cleaning. both alcohol and water work. the absolute killer was that my side seals, exactly set at .002 and a key metric for a super built motor were between 2 and 3 thou!!! the motor looked like it had just been around the block. make no mistake here... the rotary must be built right and it must be tuned and fixtured right. also, there no doubt is a big difference between running full boost all the time and.... well you understand. my primary point is looking at all my logged metrics my engine is not breaking a sweat so it should lead a long and happy life. i plan to change out the springs and O rings and put it back together. i am building a new engine w advanced (more than 20 degrees additional duration on my intake ports) porting and NRS ceramic seals so my 14,000 mile engine will get some on the shelf time.///

 

Just ordered the coolingmist trunk mount kit. They are offering some pretty good pricing.

For me I think this was they way to go at this moment. The price was attractive, it will keep my motor happy, and the ease of use looks pretty decent. I'm going to use the Coolingmist kit as my introduction to the world of A/I. Possibly in the future I will take the next step to an HD system such as the one offered by FJO.

For those looking, I would suggest taking the time to look over Coolingmist's site. They also offer a smart injections DMS controller. It can take reading from ANY 0-5v and allow you to tune from it, in 2d. Can be MAP, MAF, TPS, EGT... It also can activate/de-activate anyting with a 0-5v. Set the limits and your boost controller can be turned off if the parameters are reached. The DMS controller also has the ability to datalog. They sell EGT probes, air temp sensors, water temp sensors (or use your existing); all of which can be connected to the DMS. You do not need to use Coolingmist products with it.

I will post my experiences with the kit once installed but prob won't be for sometime. Have to finish another car thats in my garage to get make room for my Rx7 which currently is resting in my sisters garage.

 

I am going to be switching to Wolf EMS pretty soon, does anyone know if I can use its AUX inputs to control AI injectors bypassing any extra electronics? I think it is possible, the Wolf is a very robust unit.

Andy

 

I hope you dont think I was trying to create a water-alcohol fracas...I was just asking if you had experience with water. I know you have lots of experience with methanol. I think both offer their advantages and as such I used a 50/50 mix (probably closer to 60W/40A as I didn't want it flamable). If I was able to run a 3 gallon cell, as you do, I would have been running all meth as well. Water has its packaging benefits in that less is required and it isn't flamable. I think Aquamist is doing a good job of engineering systems for water/alcohol and they were extremely helpful in adapting their existing systems to the FD. If the purpose of the thread is to get out there the systems available for AI, I would offer my endorsement of Aquamist and RichardL. The HFS-5 system I had was very well done and worked well for my application, not to mention the customer support I got from Richard was second to none I have experienced in the automotive parts industry.