Well Howard, as always very helpful reading. I am about to get my car back from Pineapple Racing that just finished a rebuild with a large streetport and I added, besides all the typical and always mentioned reliability and performance mods, the Aquamist HFS-5 system that is very much an HD-AI since it monitors the fuel injectors duty and mimics their supply. I dont know is that is a way to explain it Basically it delivers the Meth/Water mixture according to the fuel injectors delivery rate so it should be always correct no matter what speed, boost or throttle position. I am aiming to make 500 whp with a GT35R.
As a side note, I designed a special reservoir for the Meth/Water mix and remembered something you said about balancing the weight of the car and adding a little more weight to the rear right so it will go in that position now. Here is the pic of the almost finished product.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...hTanksmall.jpg

Will report a little more as soon as the car is back in my hands. I cant wait to try the AI !!!
I hope it comes out as good as the one you are using.
Leo

 

"with a stock ECU could it work by dialing down the meth to avoid over-enrichening?"

no.

since meth is a fuel you'd be adding to an already rich situation...

the turbo'd rotary is being run really rich AFR-wise in order to cool the motor. we tune in the lowish 11 to 1 range so as to not have high EGTs and knock.

engines make peak torque and hp between 12.5 and 13.5 AFR which is a long way from 11 to 1.

using (excess) gasoline to cool is stupid but was Mazda's only practical option.

how stupid is gasoline to cool CCP?

when we talk cooling efficacy it is all about "latent heat"

latent heat is the amount of BTUs it takes to change a liquid to gas. the more latent heat the more heat is absorbed... that means

more latent heat------more cooling

gasoline---900

methanol----3340

ethanol---2378

isopropyl---2401

water----5801

not only is the excess gasoline we pour into our motors relatively ineffectual but it adds to the carbon buildup.

water is the clear winner as far as cooling but since it doesn't burn we are limited to the amount we can add. methanol is a fuel so we can run alot more.

typical water into a rotary is around 300-500 CC/Min.

i run 1400 CC/min of methanol.

question: which injectant option provides the most cooling?

question: which injectant is most efficient for cooling between water and gasoline?

question: which injectant carbons up your motor and which two clean it?

as to Octane ratings on methanol... they vary all over the place. between 110 and 130. the reason is because octane ratings are measured at a standard temp and methanol cools the mix to a point below the typical rating format! so all alcohol octane ratings are estimates.

on one of my dyno runs at 20 psi a hose slipped off my Power FC MAP sensor and the engine, at over 7500 full throttle 4th gear went to 13 to 1 AFR. at that point my ace tuner, Luke Stubbs, Beyond Redline, Green Bay. Wi got out of it.

looking at the logs, at 13 to one there was no knock increase (versus 11.3 to one) and EGTs were unchanged. power was up 30 rwhp..

hmmmm

we will revisit this next spring.

hc

 

I always knew the ultra rich tuning was dumb, but putting it in these terms is truly eye opening

 

"so howard what you think about alcohol injection vs e85 since the e85 will make you have to use 6 injectors constantly but the alcohol injection you only use it when you need it!"

since E85 is primarily alcohol if properly fixtured it should make more power than pumpgas alone and be kinder on the motor. if you run E85 through stock location injectors you are giving a way a major alcohol benefit as they are so close to the combustion chamber the alcohol doesn't have a chance to chill the charge air.

"and both are alcohol so since everybody praises about the fact that e85 you can run high boost alot. wouldnt a certain amount of methanol injection equal the amount of e85 given??"

properly fixtured meth AI will beat out E85 since the gas they combine w E85 is bad stuff. (perhaps a better gas grade E85 is available but generally not). also see above re the lack of proper location... of course you could reposition E85 injectors.

"plus the fact that probably 2 gallons of methanol used would last the amount of a full tank of gasoline?"

depends on how you drive but i did 23 4th gear 2000-8000 dyno runs and didn't make a dent in my 4 gallon meth fuel cell...

hc

 

Howard you mentioned the amount of meth you inject...which i believe has increased from what you ran before.

I am wondering is there a point at which you're merely injecting more and the benefits are diminished. For instance if you injected half as much as you do currently would your knock still be low and your engine safe, clean, ect?

/////// a good question... with meth you can replace as much or little fuel as you wish. i don't have an answer as to where the min meth point to kill knock is. it would depend on a lot of factors, porting, boost etc... and therefore be diff for most. howard/////////

 

"keep the omp because you are constantly steam cleaning the motor from the carbon build up?"

i do not have an answer for you as i have never run the OMP w AI. i would guess it would depend on how much you were in boost as AI is only triggered in boost. of course your motor would be cleaner with AI V without regardless of whether you ran your OMP.

"can we ditch our heavy bulky intercoolers if we run AI?"

a qualified "yes" is the answer.

there are many more qualified on this board to speak to this point but my friend w the 7.58 second methanol burning 990 rwhp 2 rotor runs no intercooler and you would be shocked at how many runs he gets out of his motors. you also best not touch his intake manifold after a run or your hand would be frozen to the aluminum.

AI combines either water and/or alcohol w gasoline so the same massive cooling is not available. my upper intake manifold after a run is probably less than 32 degrees... that's with about 27% methanol.

so i could get by without my ASP large intercooler.

i say "get by" as it would not be optimum. every degree removed counts. my intercooler removes 130 degrees of heat BEFORE the methanol cooling. it all adds up, er, subtracts down..

further, the IC works all the time, not just under boost. i believe some of heat costs are cumulative.

looking at the water side:

since water doesn't flash and is much harder to atomise the charge air cooling is more dependent on really really effective initial atomisation from pressure in the AI system or orfice characteristics. yes you can spray it in w an ill sized nozzle at less than optimum pressure and it will work in the combustion chamber but don't expect to attain much in the way of charge air cooling...(in the runners.)

the newer HD-AD systems w injectors do provide a significant atomisation advantage over the older nozzle setups.

hc

 

Great thread Howard. What are your thoughts with E85 now in the mix of things. It almost seems with E85 the AI setup may not be needed and really simplify things, what do you think?

Anthony

 

post #85..

"so howard what you think about alcohol injection vs e85..."

since E85 is primarily alcohol if properly fixtured it should make more power than pumpgas alone and be kinder on the motor. if you run E85 through stock location injectors you are giving a way a major alcohol benefit as they are so close to the combustion chamber the alcohol doesn't have a chance to chill the charge air.

properly fixtured meth AI will beat out E85 since the gas they combine w E85 is bad stuff. (perhaps a better gas grade E85 is available but generally not). also see above re the lack of proper location... of course you could reposition E85 injectors.

another consideration is the latent heat (ability to cool) of E85 ethanol is significantly less than methanol.

if you happen to be able to find E85 conveniently and properly fixture additional injectors you will be way ahead of just running pumpgas. alcohol is superior to gasoline.

i would rather run pump non boost and methanol/pump in boost but do agree that E85 is an attractive option to straight gasoline.

both will deliver the cooling needed to sustain the rotary which is what this thread is about.

hc

 

Jokes aside - where do you buy methanol, howard?

 

Racetracks often have it, you could try your local domestic hotrodding shop.

 

Awesome, Howard!

And you gotta love the RiceRacing.com website:

 

this is the first of 3 posts (12 pics/post limit) detailing my 07 Alkycontrol system, my 08 FJO HD-AI system and my modded FJO system.
i hope this gives all a flavor for the hardware.


notice how spiffy clean the throttle body is after a year of meth.

Mazda knew you would be needing a place to put your AI pump so they provided the perfect place.

near and lower than the tank, near the pass compartment battery, outside the cockpit but protected by the black plastic panel. away from the heat. the output from the pump runs forward using the (unused) 4th line in the protected brakeline shield. so perfect.

plastic panel protects

mazda, again, provided mounting points. longer bolts (inboard) needed w Banzai brace which you will need w meth power.

pump mounting panel

Jaz 4 gal fuel cell. (Jegs http://www.jegs.com/p/JAZ/758786/10002/-1) $144.99 call it 145. 12X12.5X8.5. mounted on the floor of the spare tire wheel well. ( you need to remove the center tower. i used the included anti-slosh foam and it lasted almost 2 years. replace w meth safe foam if you are going to use 100% meth. i may replace the cell w a real (metal outside, SCCA approved bladder inside)


more to come

 

here's the bidness end of the Alkycontrol system. two nozzles, each 600 CC/Min

Location is key w AI. the alcohol is situated so it can "flash." probably to the temperature it is currently outside here in wisconsin.... 5 degrees (above). oh well.

maybe you recognize the black box on the upper left... it is the relay from my long since gone Mazda ABS system. 'works like a charm. and the price was right.

Alkycontrol panel. pretty much set it and forget it. LEDs for spray confirm low level fuel cell.

we now shift gears. you are looking at the future of AI and the "FIX" for turbo'd rotary unreliability. 156 cells and you can tune each and everyone. further, because of the use of injectors you can actually obtain the delivery you program! yippie!

fjo pump. you probably knew that.

fjo module... makes it all happen. designed and built by a company thet routinely build MILSPEC electronics for large aerospace companies like Boe.... oops i am not supposed to disclose so i will stop there.

FJO scratch built pressure sensor. i used a few from Honeywell but they stopped making them. i use FJO pressure sensors to digitally log fuel pressure (a must), exhaust back pressure, oil pressure as well as a zero to 200 for the AI rail pressure.

there is over a year of R&D in this solenoid mostly about water and spray patterns and microns whatever they are.

FJO's newest AI module includes a MAP sensor and boost controller. while they are still sorting out the boost controller it is designed to run a four port solenoid. i am currently using my AVC-R but will get back to the FJO once sorted as a 4 port offers some advantages. the other module is the AFR system. both the AI and AFR systems interact so as to offer safeguard.

here's the Mazda supplied mounting for the AI output. of course the protective plastic fits over the lines. neat.

another picture to help you w the mounting setup. notice the rail pressuresensor and filter towards the motor. all of the above is shielded my the plastic Mazda cover.



more to come

 

module on left is AI and right is AFR. at the time, the 4 bar boost control line was tapped into the UIM. if you look closely you will see two digital EGT lines and my exhaust backpressure stainless steel line to an FJO pressure sensor. oh, also an FJO boost solenoid in the background. instrumentation removes the need for genius. i like that.

current dashboard instruments... FJO oil temp and oil pressure in addition to FJO AFR.

i wanted oilpan oil temperature so i gutted the useless oil level sensor and added a boss for the FJO temp sensor. you don't have to remove the pan. be sure to retain the O ring or you will find Mobil One on the floor.

a skinnied down compartment V 07. note master electric switch. pretty much a must. Kenne Bell Boost A Pump w adj dial handles the gasoline requirements and is capable of running a garden variety cosmo pump to 90%+ duty cycle w 850/1600s. since i use meth my duty cycle has dropped from 90% to low 70s

pump all tucked in

location location location

armed and daangerous

here it is installed. power steering wouldn't work w my 6 o'clock location but power steering sucks so ditch it. win win.

during the first (july) dyno session i experienced varying alcohol rail pressure behind my injectors. the pump was cavitating and forming methane gas. back to the drawing board... the fix: a pressure regulator and return line. not a biggie. back on the dyno in sep we had rock solid rail pressure and everything worked perfectly. i also switched pumps but actually regret doing it as i am quite sure the FJO pump would have worked fine freed of it's lack of a return line. i may replace the Bosch pump next spring. the upper line is the return.

i did quite alot of research on regulators and pumps. weldon is the pump and regulator of choice for all those crazies running way too fast for their own good in the quarter on 100% meth. it is completely meth compatible and can adjust up to 200 psi. it works great. i might be able to get them to make us a regulator with smaller ports so we don't have to buy a bunch of reducers.

regulator is shielded by the plastic cover.

this is the Bosch 909 pump. like the 044 but less output since we don't need that much



so that's a look at the hardware. my car is fixtured for 630 rwhp. for those of a more sane predilection there's lots of stuff here you don't need. the thread is about you not me.

now that we have a rational delivery system and are wanting a nice 300=400 rwhp all we need is the FJO HD-AI module, around $300-400. a single injector/solenoid, around $130, the pump about 115, a line kit around 66 and some sort of tank. tune it w water and forget it. and forget your rotary worries.

i believe it is FJO's opinion that a regulator and return line are not needed with water or water/meth mix.


hc

 

methanol availability:

both our Auxiliary Injection section and TurboBuick sites have a sticky that will help you find it. if you live near a short track or have a circle track hardware store nearish you they will provide your answer.

i bought my meth this year for $2.99 per gallon.

 

ther have almost been wars fought over what the correct displacement is and they aren't going to clog up this thread.

i subscribe to the 2.6 liters when comparing to a piston engine because the rotary is a 2 cycle v a piston being a 4 cycle. it is a 2 cycle because every time a combustion chamber passes the sparkplugs we have a power stroke. piston engines have a power stroke every other time they reach TDC.

end of story in this thread. feel free to debate this in another thread

hc

 

HC,

Is the FJO system able to interface with a non-FJO wideband O2... oh, say, an AEM module?

And also, would a simplified water-only injection setup (non-HD) require re-dyno tuning the motor/aftermarket ECU (also AEM) after the addition of the system, or can it be plug-n-play?

 

"simplified water-only injection setup (non-HD) require re-dyno tuning the motor/aftermarket ECU (also AEM) after the addition of the system, or is it plug-n-play?"

if you are well tuned prior to a water setup it would not require retuning.

while anything is possible, the answer is no to the FJO AI and other AFRs interacting.

 

Obviously, dyno-tuning is an expensive process if you require the expertise of a professional tuner. I'm going to head over to the AI forum to find more information about this process and contact my engine builder (Tri-Point Engineering) before running any water setup, but the idea of adding a simple system to combat heat, for relatively little money, is a fantastic prospect indeed. Certainly "tuning up" water/boost with proper engine/ECU tuning is in the cards later given the money required, granted your ancillary systems are up to the task, but I love the idea that an immediate effect can be yielded with minimal investment.

Should I expect power to dip slightly or increase with the addition of water in the combustion chamber?

 

FYI: I contacted AEM about this, and after advising a re-tune, they indicated that I shouldn't see any increase or decrease without tuning.

 

Correct.

 

It has to be that complicated because you are replacing fuel. It has to be equal to the engine's computer map and fuel nozzle timing.

Not so with water. A simple pump, control unit, and 300cc/min nozzle is all that is needed.

Barry

 

All I know is that when I do a hard pull - my air temps will easily drop over 10 deg. based on what the PFC is displaying... not sure if that is what we are discussing but the temperature definitely drops

 

FJO is returning from the PRI show in Orlando tomorrow and i will have further info at that time.

Coolingmist is generally active on this board and may have more pump/nozzle kits on FDs than any company. i believe they have an HD AI system available.

Aquamist has been working on a system that keys off injector duty cycle which in theory would work excellently. Aquamist, a U K based co, gained a good rep by doing the water injection for the World Rally Cars. (WRC). they have an interesting website and had one of the deepest and active AI forums but i think
it was hacked and may still not be back up. AQ was the first to offer an XY grid w a solenoid.

other companies you should check out are Alkycontrol, "Devil's Own" and Snowperformance.

a few comments relate to the complexity of my system.

as mentioned above, since i am partially fueling my car with methanol and also since my car is set up for road racing rather than drag racing, the requirements as to immediate and accurate delivery rise versus drag racing as there is a greater need for modulation hence the HD type of system.

many of the non HD systems are far from crude. my Alkycontrol system triggered within 3 tenths of a PSI every time! total cost of the system with custom cut stainless braided line (cut and finished just for your car), a 3 bar MAP sensor and all the items you need is approx $550. relatively simple to install.

if you are making, or want to make, big hp, are primarily a straightline guy, want to keep it simple and inexpensive and run alcohol this might be your system. easily installed in less than a day. no more blown motors due to knock.

Julio Don, proprietor of Alkycontrol is an Electrical Engineer and probably has sold more alcohol systems than anyone. most of his systems are on turbo buicks. he is a racer and his 3860 pound 236 cu inch v6 2 valve Pontiac TransAm runs in the mid tens on nothing but 93 octane and methanol. he is the most active member on the TurboBuick forum and goes by the name of Razor. it you want to learn alcohol read his thousands of tech oriented posts. above all Julio is a racer and i enjoyed working w him.

water, again as mentioned above, does not require as precise a delivery amount so the non-HD systems work well and numerous members of our board successfully run water on road circuits.

that all said, i will be very interested when someone reports in after installing an FJO HD AI system running water. 'seems like the ultimate setup for having it all w the 400 and under rotary.

hc

 

much, not all, of the recent posts are more appropriate for the Auxiliary Injection section...

while valuable to some, please consider we are in the third gen section and the concept here in this thread is a general introduction to AI.

i would like to see the thread turn more toward AI vendor product presentations and feedback from the many FD owners who are actually using AI.

hc