"Water injection, for the purpose of raising the anti-knock index of a fuel, is worthless."

narrowly correct. water doesn't effect the octane rating of gasoline.

water does provide a combustion chamber enviornment (cool) so that gasoline is capable of acting exactly like it has a higher octane. perhaps this is a distinction without a difference.

"It also must be atomized to a very high pressure (in an already pressurized system) to even have its specific heat and latent heat of evaporation properties be of any use at all."

yes, water is more dense than alcohol so it places higher emphasis on atomisation which is not a problem.

"It is inert in the combustion chamber, providing 0 BTU's as it does not combust."

yes, but by cooling the chamber the boost can be raised greatly and more power produced with no predetonation.

"It can also hydro-lock a motor if the solenoid that's keeping the high-pressurized system from hitting the nozzle fails."

yes, just like alcohol or any liquid. again, w the proper system this isn't an issue.

"The only benefit of water in all practical application is its ability to pull some heat out of the intake charge, and even then its arguable how much it can based upon the amount of water entering the chamber thereafter."

wrong. water does little to cool the intake charge as it doesn't atomise like alcohol. water releases it's massive latent heat (in this case the ability to cool) in the combustion chamber. this is a FACT. it is proven empirically by the U S Air Force studies as well many current dyno tests.

water also cleans carbon out of your carboned up apex and side seal grooves and off your rotor faces as well as being the simplest solution to not blowing your FD motor.

take your pick....

run water, run alcohol, run a mix. solve the huge CCP challenges of the turbo'd rotary.

the one bad pick?

no AI.

howard

 

Heh heh, I still get yelled at from the WI guys for those comments.

 

While that's correct, I still think its an important factor to look at. Alcohol doesn't possess this challenge. Of course, I'm a pro-alcohol guy (as if the original article wrote there didn't show that obvious bias).

That I agree on and didn't know when I wrote that. That was part of what I was corrected on.

True, but the idea behind that comment was to illustrate an inherent weakness between a pre-pressurized system that requires a solenoid or some sort of check valve in place to hold (x) pressure of injectact volume back VS. a system that's driven off of pump pressure, that's open-ended, that has no solenoid. With the pre-pressurized system, if a solenoid does fail, then it blasts an injectant into the charge and could produce this failure.

That's the one thing I've changed my mind and stand corrected on. This is probably the only reason why I like WI even though I still feel it's greatly inferior to alcohol.

Right with you on all of that, Howard.

B

 

alright, that's exactly the part that attracted my attention. Thanks

 

If the water is injected pre intake, Heat and compression supplied by the compression and heat of combustion in the chamber. This gives an advantage or running higher boost pressure, thus generating more power.

The second advantage of water over meth is the volume of liquid that needs to be injected. Meth requires the ability to hold a significantly larger amount as compared to water. Maybe a small advantage, but advantage none the less.

 

my friend/client/assistant Merle will be starting the process of fixturing a Coolingmist CMGS progressive water injection system into his car today. this is the setup where the pump nestles onto the tank as a unit. ultimate easiness.

i will be mounting the injector/nozzle to his Greddy elbow, mounting the gauge and running the elecs and water tubing.

i will post lots of pics of the install on this thread as it develops in the next few days.

i am also finishing the ports on Merle's motor and expect to have it in the car somewhere around the end of the weekend.

dyno tuning w Luke at BeyondRedline will immediately follow so we all can get a glimpse of the end result. (GT35r)

FD-AI... sounds like the plan. keep it simple.

howard

 

FYI I have the same tank with the level sensor - if you have the sensor level in the tank, you may want to do something to ensure it doesn't leak.

I had to mity-vac out about .5 gallon of water from my spare tire well last week.

There's an o-ring under the plastic nut on the fixture. I tightened it, as it seemed to have loosened a bit.

Suggestions as to how to keep a plastic nut tight on a plastic fixture would be welcome.

 

thanks for the tip. i received the kit and it didn't have a level sensor so i called David and one is headed my way along w his advice as to how to install it so it is leakfree. i will approach the install w a bit of respect and see what we all can learn. David had the sensor made of something that is meth friendly BTW... though this install is water.

hc

 

Hello rotorheads,

I have been reading allmost anything the past 2 years about WI and got a pretty good insight how it works and why it would be good on a rotary, but it was thank's to this thread I at last bought a kit, and what a luck, Aquamist was about to launch their new HFS-6 WI and I was in the group buy ! I got the kit 5 days ago and I can only say, it looks promising ;o) I have spoken to Richard a couple of times and he is a very clever guy who knows everything about WI but he still has something to learn about the rotary he says, so he would be very happy if people who actually have installed WI on their rotary would post pic's/comments/bennefits and installation writeups about how people run it in their rotaries ! I have promissed him to give him a lot of feedback about how my installation/experience with the HFS-6 kit goes, right now I am just trying to figure out where to start ! maybe you guys could help me a little ;o)

1. Where is the best place to install the injector noozle ?
2. Should I use 1 or 2 ? (I think I can adjust the flow of the injectors from the controller)
3. I plan to use the washer tank, is it big enough and where would a good place for the pump be ?
4. If better use a trunk tank, any suggestions (pic's/installations)
5. Where to place the controller module/flow module/DDS3 gauge and how to run the wiring ?

Here is the specs for my car:

13B, rebuilt stage 2 modification stock twin turbo, Greddy intercooler, KOYO radiator, Blitz sonic power intake, Downpipe Pettit , Midpipe Pettit, Racing Beat catback, removed air pump, removed secondary valves, Boost Controller Greddy Profec B-Spec 2, Apexi Power FC (already tuned), Apexi Power FC Commander

Low boost is set to 0,6 High boost is set to 0,9 ( Dyno, see picture)

The car will mostly be a dayli driver but will be at trackdays once a while, I know it's a lot of questions, but I really hope you guys will help me, thank you very much.

Rene Barfred
DENMARK

 

Great looking engine bay!

B

 

Howard, I know this is a little off topic but I ran across a video on you tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vA4CSva-NA It is a first gen with a twin turbo V8. I know its an abomination but the injection system is cool. The guy explains the system in part 2, I think. It uses 2 fuel systems the primary running on pump gas and the secondary running on race gas. Just thought you might like it.

 

rene What air filter is that,, ive been looking for something just like that for the last 2 weeks?

 

i am almost finished w the install of a Coolingmist setup for a friend...

here are a few pics:

the tank and pump. i used 1 inch X 1/8 aluminum strap which fit the tank recesses well. the tank is positioned so the pickup is in the rear allowing you to get the last remains on acceleration. the tank includes a low level led.

location of the line thru the chassis.
from the other side:

the line location. remove the un-needed charcoal canister line and replace w the AI line. a perfect location. yes, i did clean and paint the dreadful looking fuel lines. as you know there is a plastic cover for the lines. the line emerges w the fuel lines at the correct spot to be plumbed into the elbow.

gauge. lots of elecs and a boost hose.

nozzle & fresh motor... dyno soon:


hc

 

That looks great, especially the placement of the water line. I have been considering this setup. It looks so easy!

 

Just bought a Snow Performance kit. Got the parts below:

Snow Stage 3 Boost Cooler Kit, 2.5 Gallon Reservoir, Low Level Indicator, SafeInjection, Safeinjection Wastegate Solenoid, Boost Juice 4 Gallon Case, Nozzle Mounting Bung - Aluminum

Can anybody think of anything else I'm going to need. The motor was rebuilt about 10k ago. Basically stock. HKS intake, BOV and Downpipe. Trust exhaust. I've got an Apexi AVC-R, but it's not installed. A PFC, RE-A SMIC and T-78 are in it's future (in the process of getting them, but going to install them within a year or so). Looking to get around 350-400 reliable hp.

Jason

 

Looks good Howard.

I considered using something semi-permanent such as the straps you made.

However I wanted to make the setup easier to remove if needed.

An aluminum plate was bolted to the hatch area floor, and I used the rubber straps that came with the kit.

I know you've seen it, but for the benefit of those that haven't been in the AI section: https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/ai-installed-834535/

The tank stayed in place through several autox's without issue.

The tank did leak through the hole for the sending unit.

When I attempted to tighten it, I overdid it and broke the nut.

Fortunately, the nuts that are used on threaded lamp rod are the same size, so I used two of those, and siliconed around the hole.

Leak testing it tonight.

Autox this weekend.

 

I've also been looking at the snow kit...Very nice looking product and spoke with the tech's and they seemed to be very knowledgeable as well... Do you know of anyone else running this specific set up? It is controlled off the boost readings. We run them on our diesel trucks with great success, I just want to know how complicated installing and successfully running this specific kit is on the FD's.

Howard: Any advice would be greatly appreciated as well. I'm looking for simple but effective for a bone stock FD.

 

Installed my tank in the same location. I like those staps. Looks much better than the ones provided.

 

Barry

 

just returned from a day at the dyno (23 pulls).

93 pump and methanol at approx 20-21 psi 506 rwhp SAE. details and sheet to follow. we quit as the actuators ran out of spring. i will be changing the spring out to a 19 pound item and also will need to extend my N line as there's lots of more RPM in the motor.

no drama no knock. details to follow

howard coleman

 

Outstanding!

:-) neil

 

Holy awesome!!!

 

+1 Howard!!!

 

here are 6 back to back runs centering around 500 rwhp SAE on 93 octane pump gas and methanol... 20.1 psi. knock averages 21! more details later.

 

With a knock count at 21, where are your knock numbers on lower power runs? It seems alot of knock counts vary between setups. Nice numbers BTW!