just switched from a SMIC to a FMIC
10-05-04 | 01:20 PM
#53
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,209
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From: Delaware
KTW:
1) the 5-6 was based on tests on another car. I still have my dwyer diff gauge hosed into the FD cabin, I'll check the y-pipe pressure tonite at 80mph.
2) good point about the 'hot' intake, and mabe other variables that could influence 80 mph pfc measured temps vs ambient, in one ASP install vs another. It is not as pure a test as I implied.
3) drag racing .... The ASP race unit, precooled the same as a similar fmic, should be thermally about as good, and mabe less pressure drop. The mass of cold aluminum has a lot to do with this.
4) some internal tube fins are cast, but I think this a minority. The stock IC and the Greddy smic use an alarming high fin/inch packing of typical sheet metal fins, as found on the outside. I recall during the scc test, the large M2 had high pressure drop, and the core was switched to a lower internal fin count and dP dropped to the low M2 med levels.
1) the 5-6 was based on tests on another car. I still have my dwyer diff gauge hosed into the FD cabin, I'll check the y-pipe pressure tonite at 80mph.
2) good point about the 'hot' intake, and mabe other variables that could influence 80 mph pfc measured temps vs ambient, in one ASP install vs another. It is not as pure a test as I implied.
3) drag racing .... The ASP race unit, precooled the same as a similar fmic, should be thermally about as good, and mabe less pressure drop. The mass of cold aluminum has a lot to do with this.
4) some internal tube fins are cast, but I think this a minority. The stock IC and the Greddy smic use an alarming high fin/inch packing of typical sheet metal fins, as found on the outside. I recall during the scc test, the large M2 had high pressure drop, and the core was switched to a lower internal fin count and dP dropped to the low M2 med levels.
10-05-04 | 01:36 PM
#55
Originally Posted by KevinK2
His results are relevant. With rx6 single, or stock twins, likely about 5-6 psi boost to IC at 80 mph cruise. The manifold gauge will show vacuum, but will show instant boost if throttle is jabbed, since boost was readily available before the TB. IC is cooling boosted air during this 80 mph test, and fmic will do it better.
general note:
Bar and plate vs tube and fin? Mostly just weight and thermal inertia difference. The bar and plate core can be as thick as the tanks, where the tube type must be about 1/2" narrower, so bar and plate can be a slightly smaller package. Both designs use internal fins (turbulators), and either can be choked with too many internal fins resulting in high pressure drop.
general note:
Bar and plate vs tube and fin? Mostly just weight and thermal inertia difference. The bar and plate core can be as thick as the tanks, where the tube type must be about 1/2" narrower, so bar and plate can be a slightly smaller package. Both designs use internal fins (turbulators), and either can be choked with too many internal fins resulting in high pressure drop.
On the same note what would be the hot side (compressor discharge) temps cruising at 80 mph vs. WOT at the same speed?
10-05-04 | 01:51 PM
#57
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Bimingham, AL
Kevin,
The pressure is normally much higher in the compressor housing, then as the charge enters the much larger IC pipes the pressure drops. Depending on where you measured at the Y pipe the pipe diameter is the same size as the compressor housing. I've never tested it on our car but I'd imagine there is a pressure drop from the runners of the Y pipe as compared to the collector portion of the Y pipe or the IC pipes. If possible try measuring the pressure at the IC pipe before the IC and see if you get the same resultes as you do in the Y pipe.
The pressure is normally much higher in the compressor housing, then as the charge enters the much larger IC pipes the pressure drops. Depending on where you measured at the Y pipe the pipe diameter is the same size as the compressor housing. I've never tested it on our car but I'd imagine there is a pressure drop from the runners of the Y pipe as compared to the collector portion of the Y pipe or the IC pipes. If possible try measuring the pressure at the IC pipe before the IC and see if you get the same resultes as you do in the Y pipe.
10-05-04 | 01:53 PM
#58
Thread Starter
Ghost Ride the Whip
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,467
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From: Foster City, CA
The intake I used was the apex'i air filter off the single turbo RX6 kit.
As far as testing is concerned I do'nt think a hot lapping session would be an accurate assessment either. There are too many variables like lap time, the number of clean runs etc...
Maybe a 0-140mph blast would be a good test with both intercoolers would be a good test? jk =)
As far as testing is concerned I do'nt think a hot lapping session would be an accurate assessment either. There are too many variables like lap time, the number of clean runs etc...
Maybe a 0-140mph blast would be a good test with both intercoolers would be a good test? jk =)
Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
Unlikely, at constant load, lower RPM, non boost at the manifold there should be a very minor pressure produced, around 1psi if that. Where did you come up with 5 or 6 psi? If you were right letting off the throttle under those conditions should result in a very audible pressure relief from the compressor bypass, something that doesn't happen. The turbos are spinning, basically "prespooled" which is why jabbing the throttle produces such fast boost response, not because there's 5 or 6 psi sitting on the other side of the throttle plates.
I can't really comment on the PFS IC but clearly it's not nearly as similar to my Large IC as I've been told because I've used the large for years and under constant speed cruise conditions charge temps, as displayed on an Andial display, were always 5ish degrees F over ambient. The room for error is that he might have a piece of crap intake system whereas mine used a good fresh air source.
I obviously have a bias in this so I don't want to get into any silly pissing contest. Actually I'll make a few minor comments. Jeff is right, a constant speed cruise test is really pretty pointless, under such a test I'm sure the stock IC does pretty well. What you should really be looking for is pressure drop and temp delta at max sustained boost. I don't know a specific test other than lapping on a hot day for the coolant system failures people talk about with some FMICs. The last little tidbit I always find funny is the "common wisdom" on this board that somehow a front mount is best for drag racing. Oddly enough I ran 125mph on a corrected 10 second quarter mile with a stock non-ported block and of course with my large SMIC. I've never heard of anyone with a front mount doing that on a stock block. I've only heard of one other person doing it with the stock twins and a ported motor for that matter. I'm not saying one is better for one thing or another, just pointing out how common wisdom is frequently inconsistent with real world experience. I'm guessing I might produce just a tiny bit more HP next spring on this silly SMIC than some people suggest it's "good for" as well hehe.
As for tube and fin aren't some of them actually cast?
Kevin T. Wyum
I can't really comment on the PFS IC but clearly it's not nearly as similar to my Large IC as I've been told because I've used the large for years and under constant speed cruise conditions charge temps, as displayed on an Andial display, were always 5ish degrees F over ambient. The room for error is that he might have a piece of crap intake system whereas mine used a good fresh air source.
I obviously have a bias in this so I don't want to get into any silly pissing contest. Actually I'll make a few minor comments. Jeff is right, a constant speed cruise test is really pretty pointless, under such a test I'm sure the stock IC does pretty well. What you should really be looking for is pressure drop and temp delta at max sustained boost. I don't know a specific test other than lapping on a hot day for the coolant system failures people talk about with some FMICs. The last little tidbit I always find funny is the "common wisdom" on this board that somehow a front mount is best for drag racing. Oddly enough I ran 125mph on a corrected 10 second quarter mile with a stock non-ported block and of course with my large SMIC. I've never heard of anyone with a front mount doing that on a stock block. I've only heard of one other person doing it with the stock twins and a ported motor for that matter. I'm not saying one is better for one thing or another, just pointing out how common wisdom is frequently inconsistent with real world experience. I'm guessing I might produce just a tiny bit more HP next spring on this silly SMIC than some people suggest it's "good for" as well hehe.
As for tube and fin aren't some of them actually cast?
Kevin T. Wyum
10-05-04 | 01:59 PM
#60
None
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,318
Likes: 1
From: Minneapolis
Originally Posted by KevinK2
KTW:
1) the 5-6 was based on tests on another car. I still have my dwyer diff gauge hosed into the FD cabin, I'll check the y-pipe pressure tonite at 80mph.
2) good point about the 'hot' intake, and mabe other variables that could influence 80 mph pfc measured temps vs ambient, in one ASP install vs another. It is not as pure a test as I implied.
3) drag racing .... The ASP race unit, precooled the same as a similar fmic, should be thermally about as good, and mabe less pressure drop. The mass of cold aluminum has a lot to do with this.
4) some internal tube fins are cast, but I think this a minority. The stock IC and the Greddy smic use an alarming high fin/inch packing of typical sheet metal fins, as found on the outside. I recall during the scc test, the large M2 had high pressure drop, and the core was switched to a lower internal fin count and dP dropped to the low M2 med levels.
1) the 5-6 was based on tests on another car. I still have my dwyer diff gauge hosed into the FD cabin, I'll check the y-pipe pressure tonite at 80mph.
2) good point about the 'hot' intake, and mabe other variables that could influence 80 mph pfc measured temps vs ambient, in one ASP install vs another. It is not as pure a test as I implied.
3) drag racing .... The ASP race unit, precooled the same as a similar fmic, should be thermally about as good, and mabe less pressure drop. The mass of cold aluminum has a lot to do with this.
4) some internal tube fins are cast, but I think this a minority. The stock IC and the Greddy smic use an alarming high fin/inch packing of typical sheet metal fins, as found on the outside. I recall during the scc test, the large M2 had high pressure drop, and the core was switched to a lower internal fin count and dP dropped to the low M2 med levels.
4. They thought they were being clever changing the core to a high density like the medium for those tests. You can see how that turned out. The normal large core has a rated pressure drop of about .7psi at 15psi boost if I remember right. The other oddities were that they didn't use the extension ducts or bother to seal the gaps around the radiator because it wasn't "part of the kit".
Kevin T. Wyum
10-05-04 | 02:56 PM
#61
Why are FMIC's better than SMIC's for drag racing? That's simple. Because "pre-cooling" the SMIC is difficult, if not impossible. Maybe a big fan on the IC helps this a lot, but I don't want to bother with a proper shroud that would guarantee the air came from the front of the car, rather than just doubling back through the IC core and pulling hot underhood air. Not to mention, it just seems like more "band aid" fixes to stick a fan on there. On top of all this, it has never fit all that well, at this point I'd rather the parts under my hood fit and not rub holes in the IC core, the hood, etc.
I have an ASP/M2 Large and I'm trying to get rid of it to buy a FMIC, because I drive on the street and go to the dragstrip once per year or two. And that thing stays freakin' HOT (along with my air temps) unless I'm cruising on the highway for extended periods, which is a rarity.
I can't wait to switch to a FMIC. It's probably going to have no effect on the overall horsepower of my car, but it will be nice to think that I can take off from a stop light without worrying about my engine popping from 180F charge temps. Of course, a lot of people feel the same way I do, so I can only HOPE that someone will buy it. Most likely I'll just be stuck with the sucker because it will cost too much to switch to the FMIC that I want (Blitz).
Wade
I have an ASP/M2 Large and I'm trying to get rid of it to buy a FMIC, because I drive on the street and go to the dragstrip once per year or two. And that thing stays freakin' HOT (along with my air temps) unless I'm cruising on the highway for extended periods, which is a rarity.
I can't wait to switch to a FMIC. It's probably going to have no effect on the overall horsepower of my car, but it will be nice to think that I can take off from a stop light without worrying about my engine popping from 180F charge temps. Of course, a lot of people feel the same way I do, so I can only HOPE that someone will buy it. Most likely I'll just be stuck with the sucker because it will cost too much to switch to the FMIC that I want (Blitz).
Wade
10-05-04 | 03:45 PM
#62
Thread Starter
Ghost Ride the Whip
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 1
From: Foster City, CA
Kevin, have you ever considered coming out with a FMIC kit using your ASP large core? I think it would make for a good candidate because it's a nice core. Plus we would be able to better assess the effectiveness of a FMIC vs. SMIC
10-05-04 | 03:49 PM
#63
Thread Starter
Ghost Ride the Whip
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,467
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From: Foster City, CA
Another thing to note. While I am driving in traffic with a SMIC I see that the air intake temperatures dramatically increase while the car is at idle and takes a long time for it to cool down after i start driving. With a FMIC, the air intake temperatures don't vary as much. And also cools down much faster after take off. Now one may argue that stop and go traffic is not a good measure of performance, it's stupid, blah blah blah, but what if you are on the street and a stupid camaro or something is taunting you at the stop light? Wouldn't you want lower air intake temperatures when you run?
Originally Posted by Wade
Why are FMIC's better than SMIC's for drag racing? That's simple. Because "pre-cooling" the SMIC is difficult, if not impossible. Maybe a big fan on the IC helps this a lot, but I don't want to bother with a proper shroud that would guarantee the air came from the front of the car, rather than just doubling back through the IC core and pulling hot underhood air. Not to mention, it just seems like more "band aid" fixes to stick a fan on there. On top of all this, it has never fit all that well, at this point I'd rather the parts under my hood fit and not rub holes in the IC core, the hood, etc.
I have an ASP/M2 Large and I'm trying to get rid of it to buy a FMIC, because I drive on the street and go to the dragstrip once per year or two. And that thing stays freakin' HOT (along with my air temps) unless I'm cruising on the highway for extended periods, which is a rarity.
I can't wait to switch to a FMIC. It's probably going to have no effect on the overall horsepower of my car, but it will be nice to think that I can take off from a stop light without worrying about my engine popping from 180F charge temps. Of course, a lot of people feel the same way I do, so I can only HOPE that someone will buy it. Most likely I'll just be stuck with the sucker because it will cost too much to switch to the FMIC that I want (Blitz).
Wade
I have an ASP/M2 Large and I'm trying to get rid of it to buy a FMIC, because I drive on the street and go to the dragstrip once per year or two. And that thing stays freakin' HOT (along with my air temps) unless I'm cruising on the highway for extended periods, which is a rarity.
I can't wait to switch to a FMIC. It's probably going to have no effect on the overall horsepower of my car, but it will be nice to think that I can take off from a stop light without worrying about my engine popping from 180F charge temps. Of course, a lot of people feel the same way I do, so I can only HOPE that someone will buy it. Most likely I'll just be stuck with the sucker because it will cost too much to switch to the FMIC that I want (Blitz).
Wade
10-05-04 | 04:09 PM
#65
None
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,318
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From: Minneapolis
Well considering I've never blown a motor and as far as I know still have the record for the best ET on a stock motor after almost 10 years, also including things like long endurance events such as the One Lap of America on that same motor all while using that IC, I'll suggest you might be looking in the wrong places for improvement to your car. I used a fan btw without any kind of shroud and never "pre-cooled" the IC to run those ET's, keep in mind it has always been a street car, not a trailer queen.
If you really worry about your motor popping pulling away from a stoplight because you have a large ASP IC you need to have a very long talk with a real tuner or someone that knows more about the car because that's one of the funniest fears I've heard of, especially when the person thinks a front mount will increase reliability.
Kevin T. Wyum
If you really worry about your motor popping pulling away from a stoplight because you have a large ASP IC you need to have a very long talk with a real tuner or someone that knows more about the car because that's one of the funniest fears I've heard of, especially when the person thinks a front mount will increase reliability.
Kevin T. Wyum
10-05-04 | 04:23 PM
#66
Thread Starter
Ghost Ride the Whip
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 1
From: Foster City, CA
Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
Well considering I've never blown a motor and as far as I know still have the record for the best ET on a stock motor after almost 10 years, also including things like long endurance events such as the One Lap of America on that same motor all while using that IC, I'll suggest you might be looking in the wrong places for improvement to your car. I used a fan btw without any kind of shroud and never "pre-cooled" the IC to run those ET's, keep in mind it has always been a street car, not a trailer queen.
If you really worry about your motor popping pulling away from a stoplight because you have a large ASP IC you need to have a very long talk with a real tuner or someone that knows more about the car because that's one of the funniest fears I've heard of, especially when the person thinks a front mount will increase reliability.
Kevin T. Wyum
If you really worry about your motor popping pulling away from a stoplight because you have a large ASP IC you need to have a very long talk with a real tuner or someone that knows more about the car because that's one of the funniest fears I've heard of, especially when the person thinks a front mount will increase reliability.
Kevin T. Wyum
10-05-04 | 04:53 PM
#67
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Delaware
Originally Posted by SPOautos
Kevin,
The pressure is normally much higher in the compressor housing, then as the charge enters the much larger IC pipes the pressure drops. Depending on where you measured at the Y pipe the pipe diameter is the same size as the compressor housing. I've never tested it on our car but I'd imagine there is a pressure drop from the runners of the Y pipe as compared to the collector portion of the Y pipe or the IC pipes. If possible try measuring the pressure at the IC pipe before the IC and see if you get the same resultes as you do in the Y pipe.
The pressure is normally much higher in the compressor housing, then as the charge enters the much larger IC pipes the pressure drops. Depending on where you measured at the Y pipe the pipe diameter is the same size as the compressor housing. I've never tested it on our car but I'd imagine there is a pressure drop from the runners of the Y pipe as compared to the collector portion of the Y pipe or the IC pipes. If possible try measuring the pressure at the IC pipe before the IC and see if you get the same resultes as you do in the Y pipe.
For KTW, this is why no noise from the relief valve at throttle lift.
At 300 hp and wot, going from 2" to 3" bore has a +1.0 psi change. Going from 3" to a big box with zero flow is only a .2 psi increase.
For pressure drop measurements at high hp, I agree that bores should be same if possible, and have done this with another car. The efini y pipe port is close to 3" bore, and other tap off the aws pipe is by the big end of the elbo, so my meas'd drop of 1.54 psi for Greddy smic at 9.5 boost is likely low by a tenth or so.
10-05-04 | 05:01 PM
#68
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Silicon Valley Bay Area
Yeah, the SMICs do succumb to heat soaking in stop and go traffic.
I figure it's good for keeping cops from sending me to a smog referee, drops in place with ease, decent enough for a quick race on the freeway and I just haven't warmed up to that FMIC look for some reason (that's a subjective and personal thing).
I figure it's good for keeping cops from sending me to a smog referee, drops in place with ease, decent enough for a quick race on the freeway and I just haven't warmed up to that FMIC look for some reason (that's a subjective and personal thing).
10-05-04 | 05:42 PM
#69
Originally Posted by KevinK2
In single mode, 80 mph cruise, I guessed 50 hp or 70 cfm flow. The measured pressure has a static portion and a velocity portion. Assumed a 2" discharge at compressor, going into a 3" pipe. The dP due to velocity change is only .04 psi. This is very low mass flow, and the compressor is kind of dead heading against the TB, so most of my measured pressure will be static type, and can be taken just about anywhere betw turbo and tb.
.
.
Measuring the intake temp at the manifold seems like a larger variable than a SMIC (med sized) vs. a FMIC at cruise on a cool day.
Intake temps quoted for SMIC were 93-100F and 70-73F for cruise at 80 mph.
SCC quoted peak temps of 158F on the track on a hotter day (what was it?) IIRC for the M2 med. I'm questioning the delta of intake temps.
No?
Last edited by turbojeff; 10-05-04 at 05:44 PM.
10-05-04 | 06:25 PM
#70
None
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,318
Likes: 1
From: Minneapolis
I pretty much went as far as I could on a stock motor and took about 20 steps at once replacing the stock motor with a half bridge, lots of fuel, that new twin turbo setup Trev and I made and a Motec. The bulk of the time my car was down was because one of the turbos lunched after a compressor bypass valve tore/stuck open/mucked up and then Turbonetics decided to lose them during repair and make me chase them for over two years. Eventually after going to the BBB they gave up looking and gave me new replacements. Then I got married, had two kids, bought a new house, started on a second degree, worked on my main company etc.
I used the C16 when I was racing, not for driving around on the street. I would strongly suggest anyone running over 17psi to do the same, or do a switched fuel system like I did.
My main point is not about one type being better than another, that's been beaten to death, just that mine worked well enough to run 10's in the quarter and be used extensively by those lapping the cars hard in hot climates and unless someone is exceeding that performance then it's silly to somehow think the IC is any sort of problem spot.
Kevin T. Wyum
I used the C16 when I was racing, not for driving around on the street. I would strongly suggest anyone running over 17psi to do the same, or do a switched fuel system like I did.
My main point is not about one type being better than another, that's been beaten to death, just that mine worked well enough to run 10's in the quarter and be used extensively by those lapping the cars hard in hot climates and unless someone is exceeding that performance then it's silly to somehow think the IC is any sort of problem spot.
Kevin T. Wyum
10-05-04 | 07:10 PM
#71
Thread Starter
Ghost Ride the Whip
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,467
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From: Foster City, CA
Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
I pretty much went as far as I could on a stock motor and took about 20 steps at once replacing the stock motor with a half bridge, lots of fuel, that new twin turbo setup Trev and I made and a Motec. The bulk of the time my car was down was because one of the turbos lunched after a compressor bypass valve tore/stuck open/mucked up and then Turbonetics decided to lose them during repair and make me chase them for over two years. Eventually after going to the BBB they gave up looking and gave me new replacements. Then I got married, had two kids, bought a new house, started on a second degree, worked on my main company etc.
I used the C16 when I was racing, not for driving around on the street. I would strongly suggest anyone running over 17psi to do the same, or do a switched fuel system like I did.
My main point is not about one type being better than another, that's been beaten to death, just that mine worked well enough to run 10's in the quarter and be used extensively by those lapping the cars hard in hot climates and unless someone is exceeding that performance then it's silly to somehow think the IC is any sort of problem spot.
Kevin T. Wyum
I used the C16 when I was racing, not for driving around on the street. I would strongly suggest anyone running over 17psi to do the same, or do a switched fuel system like I did.
My main point is not about one type being better than another, that's been beaten to death, just that mine worked well enough to run 10's in the quarter and be used extensively by those lapping the cars hard in hot climates and unless someone is exceeding that performance then it's silly to somehow think the IC is any sort of problem spot.
Kevin T. Wyum
Another person to chime in would be cossie. He's owned a SMIC, a FMIC, and also a VMIC and he tracks his car heavily with all three of those setups.
10-05-04 | 08:45 PM
#73
i have a greddy 2 row FMIC and it sucks .....personally i am in favor for large SMIC's or V-mount....i have such horrible Coolant temps....i can't even drive on the highway anymore. Its pathetic ...i am going to garage my car soon and save up for a V-mount....seriously i have never been a fan of FMIC because its more bling than actual reliability. The only way a Fmic is better in my own opinion is if you have sufficient ducting to the radiator to be able to maintain low water temps...other than that fmic's aren't the best or the most practical...but then again this is all in my own opinion.
10-05-04 | 08:49 PM
#74
Super Snuggles
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 10,091
Likes: 32
From: Redmond, WA
Originally Posted by BATMAN
I would surmise that the VMIC is the ultimate.
Surely anyone can see that.
Surely anyone can see that.
I think people like the V-mount more because they don't know enough about intercoolers to sift out the hype, or just because it's newer, which makes it the latest thing to have... or maybe for the same reason people are always asking about 6-speeds...
10-05-04 | 08:55 PM
#75
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 102
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From: Silicon Valley Bay Area
Good point.
Issues with the FMIC taxing the radiators cooling abilities would be highlighted during the hot summer months.
It's probably less of an issue when the weather is near the winter months.
Issues with the FMIC taxing the radiators cooling abilities would be highlighted during the hot summer months.
It's probably less of an issue when the weather is near the winter months.