It's a lower temperature thermostat that keeps your water temperatures lower. Companies such as Billion and ARC make them. I have it in my car as a means to support the cooling capacity and am very happy with it.

Why would it be bad to go WOT at that temp?

 

That is correct.

 

the car needs to be at an operating temperature.. too cold can be just as bad as too hot.

i like my car to be around 180f, you are running around 159.8 which i wouldent consider fully warmed up yet.

 

Why would it be bad to go WOT at that temp?[/QUOTE]
They are saying that the car does not reach it optimal temp till water temps are over 81c...my car always runs at about 73c to 76c while cruising on a cold night and I get paranoid to gun it...have you had any problems going WOT at that low water temp?

 

I have been running my car with the billion thermostat for over a year now without any problems. As long as the oil temperature is warmed up the car should run fine. The only drawback is that the 02 sensor is still in closed loop until the water temp hits 80, therefore gas mileage suffers. But when I am at WOT for extended periods of time, water temps rise to mid 80's, so it really is only low 70s when cruising on the freeway

 

where did you get this information and is there any data to prove it? I am not saying this in an accusing manner, but I would like to learn how the design and structure of an intercooler can affect it's performance characteristics.

 

I wonder if I have the same t-stat..your water temps is identical to mine...I have the 82c t-stat at home but I have been lazy to replace it since I work so much...I guess it will just have to wait since now at least there is another person out there running the same as me with no problems...

 

I'm using the Billion one but ARC makes lower temperature thermostats as well. Tony at Rotary Xecret 7 stocks the ARC ones. They are like $70 I believe and a worthy investment for road racers and track ******

 

At what ambient temperatures are you getting 21-23C?

 

Does anyone even make a bar and plate design for the FD? I went from Large ASP to large 3 row GReddy when I went single. The install was a pain in the *** and I had to trim almost the entire front end in order for it to fit.

 

21-23C is 70-73F so it had to be pretty cold outside to get the intake temps that low.

No doubt in my mind that the generally FMICs will cool better than SMICs given all else is equal.

 

bar and plate is supposed to have less pressure drop. I got this information from some reputable engineers.

I thought the greddys were bar and plate?

either way i have a b&p fmic on my 7... custom.

 

EDIT: Whoops, got'em mixed up. D'oh!

Fin/tube has a slightly higher pressure drop, but they are more efficient. Bar/plate design has better internal flow for less pressure drop, but because of that improved flow they don't transfer heat quite as well. There's a aerodynamic term called "boundary layer" which describes a layer of air that adheres to the surfaces/walls of any object subjected to smooth "laminar" airflow. This boundary layer can act as an sort of insulator, preventing good heat transfer of the air flowing through the IC core. However, many newer designs usually are now including some type of internal structure that promotes turbulence inside the core, inducing better heat transfer for improved efficiency.

 

I run the Blitz FMIC and love it. (in fact, all Blitz gear seems first-class).
I run at the track frequently, and had to add a Koyo radiator to keep the temps down.
On really hot days I'm still retaining too much heat between sessions, and will add some extra oil cooling next.

Some pix at : (Toward the bottom of the page)

http://rx7.bnis.net.au/Series7.htm

 

all japanese tuners use tube and plate except apex'i which uses delta fin and arc

 

finally comments from someone who's actually owned BOTH.

im about to install my apexi. i guess its a good thing it kind of sits back, both for airflow and so it wont be as ugly as a fully front mounted ic. i'm definitely going to mount my radiator vertically.

 

The ambient air temperatures during these runs were about 67-69 degrees farenheit here in the bay area. Relative to other parts of the country I guess that it's pretty cold.

 

Thanks for the reply. Was that cruising or under boost? Stock air intake temp sensor or aftermarket?

 

Those were under cruising speeds at 80mph in fifth gear without boost. On the street it is too hard to replicate full boost runs consistently and also in a controlled manner. In my opinion cruising speeds can still be considered reliable data.

Another thing I noticed with the front mount. When I park the car after extended driving and the intercooler heatsoaks, The air intake temperatures drop a lot quicker after driving than with a SMIC.

The air intake temperature sensor is a stock one. I am using an Apex'i Power FC to monitor my results.

 

I see alot of low numbers in this thread....makes me wonder.

 

Good to know what the test conditions were. What worries me is that your test isn't really accurate, no boost is being produced at 80mph like you said. So that is basically a no load test for the IC.

Again I'm sure the FMIC is better at cooling, but your test results aren't really relevant.

 

His results are relevant. With rx6 single, or stock twins, likely about 5-6 psi boost to IC at 80 mph cruise. The manifold gauge will show vacuum, but will show instant boost if throttle is jabbed, since boost was readily available before the TB. IC is cooling boosted air during this 80 mph test, and fmic will do it better.

general note:

Bar and plate vs tube and fin? Mostly just weight and thermal inertia difference. The bar and plate core can be as thick as the tanks, where the tube type must be about 1/2" narrower, so bar and plate can be a slightly smaller package. Both designs use internal fins (turbulators), and either can be choked with too many internal fins resulting in high pressure drop.

 

a very good decision for a tracked fmic. on a hot day scc tracked the m2 med, and peaked at 158F intake temp at 12-13 psi on a 90F day. even with some bypass, I bet air temps will be lower than the scc tested m2.

assuming a full flow fmic provides 110F peak intake at the track, where a blitz gives 130F, the density loss is only 3%, but the rad will be much happier.

 

When I first got my M2 large I did the 'no boost on the highway' test. It was 21 deg C ambiant temp and my intake temps were 26 deg C on the highway (I only drove it for 1/2 mile prior to getting on the hghway). Point is that whenever I drive the car normally, the temps are not nearly that low (more like 35 deg C). Given that, how much better does the IC perform under normal conditions?

 

Unlikely, at constant load, lower RPM, non boost at the manifold there should be a very minor pressure produced, around 1psi if that. Where did you come up with 5 or 6 psi? If you were right letting off the throttle under those conditions should result in a very audible pressure relief from the compressor bypass, something that doesn't happen. The turbos are spinning, basically "prespooled" which is why jabbing the throttle produces such fast boost response, not because there's 5 or 6 psi sitting on the other side of the throttle plates.

I can't really comment on the PFS IC but clearly it's not nearly as similar to my Large IC as I've been told because I've used the large for years and under constant speed cruise conditions charge temps, as displayed on an Andial display, were always 5ish degrees F over ambient. The room for error is that he might have a piece of crap intake system whereas mine used a good fresh air source.

I obviously have a bias in this so I don't want to get into any silly pissing contest. Actually I'll make a few minor comments. Jeff is right, a constant speed cruise test is really pretty pointless, under such a test I'm sure the stock IC does pretty well. What you should really be looking for is pressure drop and temp delta at max sustained boost. I don't know a specific test other than lapping on a hot day for the coolant system failures people talk about with some FMICs. The last little tidbit I always find funny is the "common wisdom" on this board that somehow a front mount is best for drag racing. Oddly enough I ran 125mph on a corrected 10 second quarter mile with a stock non-ported block and of course with my large SMIC. I've never heard of anyone with a front mount doing that on a stock block. I've only heard of one other person doing it with the stock twins and a ported motor for that matter. I'm not saying one is better for one thing or another, just pointing out how common wisdom is frequently inconsistent with real world experience. I'm guessing I might produce just a tiny bit more HP next spring on this silly SMIC than some people suggest it's "good for" as well hehe.

As for tube and fin aren't some of them actually cast?

Kevin T. Wyum