If you had $60k what would you buy? An FD or....?
10-26-12, 11:04 AM
#52
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There's is nothing new in the 60k range that does anything for me and Mazda isn't commited to the rotary or the RX7 so forget about a 4th gen which is fine with me because topping this car would be next to impossible.
Lots of props currently for the FRS but I'd go with a used S2K which in my opinion is better than the FRS in every way.
10-26-12, 11:19 AM
#53
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I've thought about lotus's but they are WAY WAY overpriced for what you get (a toy car) and if anything gets damaged even the windshield it's stupid expensive to fix it. Also the car looks a little too much like a kit car (well I guess it is a kit car) for me to really be devoted to it or really pay much attention to it. I've also never been on track with a very fast one because they have little power or top end and limited cornering because of the tire size.
Any well prepped competitor simply drives by it (vettes, P cars, GTRs, EVOs, STIs etc...etc...) with ease as does the FD.
Any well prepped competitor simply drives by it (vettes, P cars, GTRs, EVOs, STIs etc...etc...) with ease as does the FD.
10-26-12, 12:22 PM
#55
I've thought about lotus's but they are WAY WAY overpriced for what you get (a toy car) and if anything gets damaged even the windshield it's stupid expensive to fix it. Also the car looks a little too much like a kit car (well I guess it is a kit car) for me to really be devoted to it or really pay much attention to it. I've also never been on track with a very fast one because they have little power or top end and limited cornering because of the tire size.
Any well prepped competitor simply drives by it (vettes, P cars, GTRs, EVOs, STIs etc...etc...) with ease as does the FD.
Any well prepped competitor simply drives by it (vettes, P cars, GTRs, EVOs, STIs etc...etc...) with ease as does the FD.
10-26-12, 01:04 PM
#56
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There are a few supercharged Elises and Exige Cup cars in the Midwest which put most cars to shame in TT competitions. You are correct that at a track like VIR, that long back straight will still pose problems for cars not putting down serious HP numbers but they can be made to go very fast like any car with some money.
. On the east coast there are no FAST lotus's at the club events I go to or the TTs I run in so I can only go by what I see and this includes Summit Point which is a small low power momentum track. If the fast cars show up in TTU at either track it would likely take a lotus with an engine transplant or one very very expensive lotus to compete
Notice what's at the top of OLOA or the UTCC etc.... no lotus's.
YEP they are cool cars but again I'd spend 50k on a GT3 or even try my hand at a track prepped c6 or viper. To me the lotus is just too little car for too much money.
10-26-12, 02:14 PM
#57
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I don't know about a modern FD. I didn't really like the RX8 so its a bit of a toss up. It could be sweet like the new NSX or something really weird....
But if it was another car, its just short of enough cash to get an GT-R34 which trumps the FD as my all time dream car. The FD is 2nd. After that just too many cars. Astons are too much... So I guess I'd get a nice M3, M5, or Audi A5 maybe.
I like too many cars...
But if it was another car, its just short of enough cash to get an GT-R34 which trumps the FD as my all time dream car. The FD is 2nd. After that just too many cars. Astons are too much... So I guess I'd get a nice M3, M5, or Audi A5 maybe.
I like too many cars...
10-26-12, 06:53 PM
#58
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A used Lotus Evora S would probably do the trick for me but it's a bit more than $60K (new) right now. Likewise with the C6 Corvette Z06.
10-26-12, 08:00 PM
#59
No doubt enough money and a civic will compete BUT the FD does it easily with little invested. 6k roller, invest 30k and you have a very fast car or buy a 15k moderately modded track car like I did .
On the east coast there are no FAST lotus's at the club events I go to or the TTs I run in so I can only go by what I see and this includes Summit Point which is a small low power momentum track. If the fast cars show up in TTU at either track it would likely take a lotus with an engine transplant or one very very expensive lotus to compete
Notice what's at the top of OLOA or the UTCC etc.... no lotus's.
. On the east coast there are no FAST lotus's at the club events I go to or the TTs I run in so I can only go by what I see and this includes Summit Point which is a small low power momentum track. If the fast cars show up in TTU at either track it would likely take a lotus with an engine transplant or one very very expensive lotus to compete
Notice what's at the top of OLOA or the UTCC etc.... no lotus's.
The S2000 which took the top spot is anything but normal (and blew it's diff later that day):
That Elise actually beats it at some tracks, but you can see it's not far off the Viper. It puts a hurting on the Vettes. As for the value, Fritz you can't be serious that you are comparing price of a 1993 car versus a 2005 or newer car? Of course it's going to be cheaper to buy and mod a car that's 10-12 years older...
I also got to witness this Exige Cup tear up the Storm field last weekend:
Just like any car, they can be as fast as you are willing to spend. It's not much different than spending money on a GT3. A modded FD can be as fast or faster than a GT3. The GT3 just comes almost done for you. You have the suspension and other parts in place; you just need to give it more power if you want it. Not much different with a Lotus. The main difference is that most Lotus owners aren't power hungry (or they would be Vette owners).
10-27-12, 10:35 AM
#60
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$60K on a car, too much money unless I am a multi millionaire. If that was the case I would probably buy a Ford GT with a TT kit.
Nothing in the $60K range excites me. Corvettes are too plentiful, Porsche are ok, but look like VW bugs kind of. Ferrari's etc are too maintenance heavy.
I love the 7, because of its price, performance, looks. so clean, so raw, so fast.
Nothing in the $60K range excites me. Corvettes are too plentiful, Porsche are ok, but look like VW bugs kind of. Ferrari's etc are too maintenance heavy.
I love the 7, because of its price, performance, looks. so clean, so raw, so fast.
10-27-12, 01:07 PM
#62
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Mahjik,
I'm not familiar with MAM but those guys are running t1 lap times so that's not very impressive for a TTU car.
Typical TTU hardware on the east coast is a 400 rwhp light car or 700 heavier car and the lap times are several seconds faster than t1 record times.
Clearly a new car will cost more my comment was in relation to the small budget the FD needs in order to dominate or compete with most any production car. A lotus or S2K would be hard pressued to compete against an FD dollar for dollar as would any other make.
I'm not familiar with MAM but those guys are running t1 lap times so that's not very impressive for a TTU car.
Typical TTU hardware on the east coast is a 400 rwhp light car or 700 heavier car and the lap times are several seconds faster than t1 record times.
Clearly a new car will cost more my comment was in relation to the small budget the FD needs in order to dominate or compete with most any production car. A lotus or S2K would be hard pressued to compete against an FD dollar for dollar as would any other make.
10-27-12, 01:57 PM
#63
Regardless of comparing different track timings from different days/years
showing the same day/track conditions does demonstrate that the car can be quite capable if the investment is desired. The SCCA T1 folks were running 1.35's at Hastings this year. The TTU Elise ran 1.32's as did the S2000. The SCCA STO class did hit the 1.32's at Hastings though...Yep, NASA is about power to weight so it depends on the weight of the car as to the power (and of course the other points). IIRC, the S2000 is around 450 with the Elise being around 380. I'm going off hearsay but it's showing basically what I said which is the car with some more power will be competitive on the smaller tracks. You'll still be limited on the tracks with long straights like VIR and RA. This is the main reason the Elise has a harder time at MAM than the other tracks the NASA Central region uses as it has a long straight that the higher HP cars use to their advantage.
10-28-12, 11:11 PM
#65
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If you are comparing some of the SCCA 2009 times that you can find on the web, it's a different track since then (it was flooded last year and there have been some changes). That weekend was also raining so the times are partial wet track times but still....
Regardless of comparing different track timings from different days/years showing the same day/track conditions does demonstrate that the car can be quite capable if the investment is desired. The SCCA T1 folks were running 1.35's at Hastings this year. The TTU Elise ran 1.32's as did the S2000. The SCCA STO class did hit the 1.32's at Hastings though...
Yep, NASA is about power to weight so it depends on the weight of the car as to the power (and of course the other points). IIRC, the S2000 is around 450 with the Elise being around 380. I'm going off hearsay but it's showing basically what I said which is the car with some more power will be competitive on the smaller tracks. You'll still be limited on the tracks with long straights like VIR and RA. This is the main reason the Elise has a harder time at MAM than the other tracks the NASA Central region uses as it has a long straight that the higher HP cars use to their advantage.
Regardless of comparing different track timings from different days/years
showing the same day/track conditions does demonstrate that the car can be quite capable if the investment is desired. The SCCA T1 folks were running 1.35's at Hastings this year. The TTU Elise ran 1.32's as did the S2000. The SCCA STO class did hit the 1.32's at Hastings though...Yep, NASA is about power to weight so it depends on the weight of the car as to the power (and of course the other points). IIRC, the S2000 is around 450 with the Elise being around 380. I'm going off hearsay but it's showing basically what I said which is the car with some more power will be competitive on the smaller tracks. You'll still be limited on the tracks with long straights like VIR and RA. This is the main reason the Elise has a harder time at MAM than the other tracks the NASA Central region uses as it has a long straight that the higher HP cars use to their advantage.
10-29-12, 10:52 AM
#66
You clearly haven't looked at values on them lately. for $60K, you're going to be buying a broke-*** bottom of the barrel 993 TT. Clean, low mile 993 Turbos are bringing upwards of $80-90K these days.
I'm with Fritz. I'd buy a 996 GT3, track the crap out of it and never look back....right after welding the coolant fittings.
I'm with Fritz. I'd buy a 996 GT3, track the crap out of it and never look back....right after welding the coolant fittings.
10-29-12, 12:19 PM
#68
For myself, considering what I use sports cars for I would do one of the following with the $60k:
- 20B NA for my current FD
- Exige S
- 996 GT3
10-29-12, 01:55 PM
#69
I am going to have to agree with Fritz in regards to the Lotus. I was intrigued with them for quite some time coming from a heavy history with light weight roadsters. From what I have experienced with the Lotus' that have crossed my path is that for 50k, they are kind of well, ****. They get praise because of the go kart feel they provide especially because most reviewers hop in them coming from much larger cars. I'd argue that a Miata with a little horsepower and suspension tuning would drive better then the Lotus. Lotus achieves their speed with lightness. Their out of the box handling at the limit of grip characteristics I feel are unconventional and not what I would consider a joy to drive. I'd take an S2000 any day over the Lotus.
As with all small wheel base high grip cars comes their limits of power. My 91 turbocharged Miata with 252 whp is nearing the point to where it becomes a toy / joke car. The same holds true with the Elise/Exige and their small wheel base. The S2000 is a little better, but still after around 300-350 whp, a different platform becomes more appealing. FD/996 would probably be the next best step after the S2000 and are still capable/usable with 400-450 whp. Of course anything with extensive money and modifications can be built to handle more power for road racing scenarios. I am speaking of these cars in terms of their out of the box limitations with the standard brake and suspension mods to handle race compounds on the track.
I guess it really comes down to what your intentions are. If you are OK with the horsepower and speeds of the Elise/Exige, out of the box they pretty much require nothing to make a formidable track day car. For a 400+ horsepower time attack car, I would look into something else.
If I had 60k to spend and had to buy a current offering I would probably go for a used 08 Viper ACR, which can be had around 70k and just spend the extra out of my pocket. If that wasn't an option the FD would be my next choice, followed by the 996 GT3 or possibly even an 08 C6 Z06.
As with all small wheel base high grip cars comes their limits of power. My 91 turbocharged Miata with 252 whp is nearing the point to where it becomes a toy / joke car. The same holds true with the Elise/Exige and their small wheel base. The S2000 is a little better, but still after around 300-350 whp, a different platform becomes more appealing. FD/996 would probably be the next best step after the S2000 and are still capable/usable with 400-450 whp. Of course anything with extensive money and modifications can be built to handle more power for road racing scenarios. I am speaking of these cars in terms of their out of the box limitations with the standard brake and suspension mods to handle race compounds on the track.
I guess it really comes down to what your intentions are. If you are OK with the horsepower and speeds of the Elise/Exige, out of the box they pretty much require nothing to make a formidable track day car. For a 400+ horsepower time attack car, I would look into something else.
If I had 60k to spend and had to buy a current offering I would probably go for a used 08 Viper ACR, which can be had around 70k and just spend the extra out of my pocket. If that wasn't an option the FD would be my next choice, followed by the 996 GT3 or possibly even an 08 C6 Z06.
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