Horizontal intercooler
11-26-02 | 12:56 PM
#101
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 653
Likes: 0
From: TX
Originally posted by Kevin T. Wyum
IMO it does not matter if the IC is vertical or horizontal as long as you have a duct forcing air thru it and clearence for the air to exit out.
Gah! Okay what are we talking about here? There are apparently two HMIC's, Chucks Rotary Extreme which has a duct and SR's that has no duct and was discontinued right?
IMO it does not matter if the IC is vertical or horizontal as long as you have a duct forcing air thru it and clearence for the air to exit out.
Gah! Okay what are we talking about here? There are apparently two HMIC's, Chucks Rotary Extreme which has a duct and SR's that has no duct and was discontinued right?
"The big advantage to the SR HMIC is that the IC pipes are very short and that they have no bends in them. "
Not sure what you're looking at but the SR pipes look almost identical to the ASP Medium ones. Same bends and distance etc. The Rotary Extreme one has longer tubes and more bends than either of the others.[/B]
Not sure what you're looking at but the SR pipes look almost identical to the ASP Medium ones. Same bends and distance etc. The Rotary Extreme one has longer tubes and more bends than either of the others.[/B]
"This means less heat tranfer which leads to pressure drop. "
I think you misunderstand Pressure Drop when used in reference to IC's. Pressure drop is meant to describe how restrictive a core is. How hard it is for the air to pass through the core at different pressures.[/B]
I think you misunderstand Pressure Drop when used in reference to IC's. Pressure drop is meant to describe how restrictive a core is. How hard it is for the air to pass through the core at different pressures.[/B]
"This is a big plus over FMICs and even SMICs. Other advantages include keeping the battery and radiator in the stock locations. Add a vented hood to the mix and you have and all around IC."
I don't see any advantages though. Nothing you just mentioned applies to the ASP Medium which I thought we were talking about.[/B]
I don't see any advantages though. Nothing you just mentioned applies to the ASP Medium which I thought we were talking about.[/B]
Last edited by gohorns; 11-26-02 at 01:08 PM.
11-26-02 | 01:04 PM
#102
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,533
Likes: 355
From: Stockton, CA
How about both of you and Kevin come to Cali and I will take you guys to Sears Point, Thunderhill, or the Mazda home track Laguna Sega? You can stay at my place for free. =)
Chuck
Chuck
Originally posted by SleepR1
Kevin...yeah, apparently the guy who used pliers on Jim Phend's M2/ASP large IC pipes was Brian himself of M2 Performance
As you read in Jim's email, that sorry story happened at MADS VIR 2001 (as I recall)...
Chuck, yes, Jim Phend, the guy with all the problems with his M2/ASP large IC is one of my Motorsports Driving Club members. He's an active road racer with lots of time at Putnam Park, Mid Ohio, Gingerman, and VIR.
I have to say this is the most civlized discussion I've read concerning intercoolers. It's not often we have the opportunity to read "competing" theories on air charge cooling by the inventors of the respective intercoolers
I myself am left wavering, but am still leaning toward Chuck's HMIC setup if for no other reason than being able to use the Anfini Y-pipe WITHOUT any modifications. I'm willing to bet that Chuck's HMIC used with both an inlet and outlet duct in conjunction with a vented hood will be the cooler charged setup...
To Kevin and Chuck--I'm willing to A/B compare your respective IC setups on my '93 R1, if you guys want to fly out to Indy and have your parts installed on my car and track tested at Putnam Park Road Course. You have to wait until I have Dave Barninger (of KD Rotary)install my "secret sauce" ported motor, and J-spec sequential twins first, though
Kevin...yeah, apparently the guy who used pliers on Jim Phend's M2/ASP large IC pipes was Brian himself of M2 Performance
As you read in Jim's email, that sorry story happened at MADS VIR 2001 (as I recall)...Chuck, yes, Jim Phend, the guy with all the problems with his M2/ASP large IC is one of my Motorsports Driving Club members. He's an active road racer with lots of time at Putnam Park, Mid Ohio, Gingerman, and VIR.
I have to say this is the most civlized discussion I've read concerning intercoolers. It's not often we have the opportunity to read "competing" theories on air charge cooling by the inventors of the respective intercoolers
I myself am left wavering, but am still leaning toward Chuck's HMIC setup if for no other reason than being able to use the Anfini Y-pipe WITHOUT any modifications. I'm willing to bet that Chuck's HMIC used with both an inlet and outlet duct in conjunction with a vented hood will be the cooler charged setup...
To Kevin and Chuck--I'm willing to A/B compare your respective IC setups on my '93 R1, if you guys want to fly out to Indy and have your parts installed on my car and track tested at Putnam Park Road Course. You have to wait until I have Dave Barninger (of KD Rotary)install my "secret sauce" ported motor, and J-spec sequential twins first, though
11-26-02 | 01:51 PM
#105
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,533
Likes: 355
From: Stockton, CA
If you look at the V Mount, air from the mouth flows through the radiator and it also flows through the intercooler. The intercooler is exposed directly to the air flow unlike a HMIC or a SMIC which needs a duct but the size of the duct is limited to that slot between the radiator and the bar above it. So a V Mount IC has a lot air flowing through it than any kind of SMIC or HMIC and it's almost like a front mount. Front mount still has more air flow exposure.
Intercooler air exposure:
1. front mount
2. v mount IC
3. SMIC or HMIC
Radiator air exposure:
1. SMIC or HMIC
2. V mount IC
3. front mount IC
An IC generally needs much less air flowing through it than a radiator because a fluid (coolant) holds a lot more heat than air. You can tell by the heat coefficient of the material.
If you look at the position of the V Mount, the radiator still has more exposure to the air flow so you don't have to worry about over heating with the V mount radiator.
BTW, the V mount will come with side shields that has a center divider so you can adjust how much air flowing to the radiator or the intercooler. One of my customers already had the prototype v mount installed on his car and according to his testing datalogged by the Haltec, the IC and Radiator work fine without the shields so far but I believe vmount will perform even better with the side shields and center divider.
Here is a picture of the Panspeed road race car. They used to use front mount IC on their road race car and after blowing a few motors, they switched to the V Mount.
Chuck
Intercooler air exposure:
1. front mount
2. v mount IC
3. SMIC or HMIC
Radiator air exposure:
1. SMIC or HMIC
2. V mount IC
3. front mount IC
An IC generally needs much less air flowing through it than a radiator because a fluid (coolant) holds a lot more heat than air. You can tell by the heat coefficient of the material.
If you look at the position of the V Mount, the radiator still has more exposure to the air flow so you don't have to worry about over heating with the V mount radiator.
BTW, the V mount will come with side shields that has a center divider so you can adjust how much air flowing to the radiator or the intercooler. One of my customers already had the prototype v mount installed on his car and according to his testing datalogged by the Haltec, the IC and Radiator work fine without the shields so far but I believe vmount will perform even better with the side shields and center divider.
Here is a picture of the Panspeed road race car. They used to use front mount IC on their road race car and after blowing a few motors, they switched to the V Mount.
Chuck
Originally posted by SleepR1
Chuck, how is a V-mount IC and Rad similar to having a FMIC and radiator at the same time?
Chuck, how is a V-mount IC and Rad similar to having a FMIC and radiator at the same time?
11-26-02 | 02:14 PM
#107
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 2
From: IN
Chuck, so it looks like the v-mount is the best compromise of both the SMIC/HMIC and FMIC's drawbacks?
I just ordered a Koyo radiator from Jason at the Rx7 Store. Will a Koyo work with the V-mounted IC, and have you figured out a way to mount the A/C condenser?
He's got a wicked deal going on a Greddy FMIC. Apparently the Greddy FMIC allows you to mount the Koyo vertically?
Dave Barninger (KD Rotary) says that his personal preference is the FMIC/Koyo. He apparently has no overheating issues...at least with his drag racers...I'm not sure if he has any road racers using the FMIC/Koyo setup successfully ???
I just ordered a Koyo radiator from Jason at the Rx7 Store. Will a Koyo work with the V-mounted IC, and have you figured out a way to mount the A/C condenser?
He's got a wicked deal going on a Greddy FMIC. Apparently the Greddy FMIC allows you to mount the Koyo vertically?
Dave Barninger (KD Rotary) says that his personal preference is the FMIC/Koyo. He apparently has no overheating issues...at least with his drag racers...I'm not sure if he has any road racers using the FMIC/Koyo setup successfully ???
11-26-02 | 02:14 PM
#108
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,533
Likes: 355
From: Stockton, CA
I am so sorry man. After you see these few more pictures, you will see what a V mount is.
The intercooler part of the V Mount looks like the HMIC but the radiator is mounted differently to form a "V" with the intercooler. Hence the "V" Mount.
On my V mount, it shares the same intercooler as the HMIC but the bracket is a little different. So you can actually upgrade the HMIC to a V mount later by purchasing the radiator part and all the other hardware that goes with it.
Chuck
The intercooler part of the V Mount looks like the HMIC but the radiator is mounted differently to form a "V" with the intercooler. Hence the "V" Mount.
On my V mount, it shares the same intercooler as the HMIC but the bracket is a little different. So you can actually upgrade the HMIC to a V mount later by purchasing the radiator part and all the other hardware that goes with it.
Chuck
Originally posted by SleepR1
Chuck, that pic shows an IC setup that looks more like an HMIC? or are does the camera deceive because we're looking at a 2-dimensional image of a 3-dimensional object?
Chuck, that pic shows an IC setup that looks more like an HMIC? or are does the camera deceive because we're looking at a 2-dimensional image of a 3-dimensional object?
11-26-02 | 02:19 PM
#109
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 2
From: IN
Oh...dude, I see now...that's DEFINITELY THE WAY TO GO ROAD RACING--V-MOUNT's the ticket!
Sh*t I just ordered a Koyo from Jason...oh well...I guess I have to stay with HMIC, FMIC, or SMIC--still haven't decided though...
Sh*t I just ordered a Koyo from Jason...oh well...I guess I have to stay with HMIC, FMIC, or SMIC--still haven't decided though...
11-26-02 | 02:26 PM
#110
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,533
Likes: 355
From: Stockton, CA
V mount comes with its own radiator. You can't use the Koyo with it. V mount has to be purchased as an IC/Radiator combo. They work together. Buying just one of them is not going to work.
I can only tell you by my own experience. With a front mount intercooler, the water temperature of my car starts to go more than 110 C on a 100 F day when I was going at 120 mph+. I have a custom made 2" radiator. I find that front mount IC cannot withstand a long period of high speed driving during a hot day. Once I lower the speed to 100 mph, the water temp went down but when I brought it up to 120+, the water temp goes up again.
During a cold day such as 60-70F, it's ok. The water temp stays at about 95C even when I was driving 120+ mph. There is a 30-40 F drop in ambient temp so the water temp drops as well. No magic here.
Chuck
I can only tell you by my own experience. With a front mount intercooler, the water temperature of my car starts to go more than 110 C on a 100 F day when I was going at 120 mph+. I have a custom made 2" radiator. I find that front mount IC cannot withstand a long period of high speed driving during a hot day. Once I lower the speed to 100 mph, the water temp went down but when I brought it up to 120+, the water temp goes up again.
During a cold day such as 60-70F, it's ok. The water temp stays at about 95C even when I was driving 120+ mph. There is a 30-40 F drop in ambient temp so the water temp drops as well. No magic here.
Chuck
Originally posted by SleepR1
Chuck, so it looks like the v-mount is the best compromise of both the SMIC/HMIC and FMIC's drawbacks?
I just ordered a Koyo radiator from Jason at the Rx7 Store. Will a Koyo work with the V-mounted IC, and have you figured out a way to mount the A/C condenser?
He's got a wicked deal going on a Greddy FMIC. Apparently the Greddy FMIC allows you to mount the Koyo vertically?
Dave Barninger (KD Rotary) says that his personal preference is the FMIC/Koyo. He apparently has no overheating issues...at least with his drag racers...I'm not sure if he has any road racers using the FMIC/Koyo setup successfully ???
Chuck, so it looks like the v-mount is the best compromise of both the SMIC/HMIC and FMIC's drawbacks?
I just ordered a Koyo radiator from Jason at the Rx7 Store. Will a Koyo work with the V-mounted IC, and have you figured out a way to mount the A/C condenser?
He's got a wicked deal going on a Greddy FMIC. Apparently the Greddy FMIC allows you to mount the Koyo vertically?
Dave Barninger (KD Rotary) says that his personal preference is the FMIC/Koyo. He apparently has no overheating issues...at least with his drag racers...I'm not sure if he has any road racers using the FMIC/Koyo setup successfully ???
11-26-02 | 02:27 PM
#111
If there was some way to keep the A/C condenser with the V-mount setup, it would probably be the best deal.
Say, how about re-mounting a new condensor in the hole for the second oil-cooler, then run a monster oil cooler in place of the drivers-side. :-)
Say, how about re-mounting a new condensor in the hole for the second oil-cooler, then run a monster oil cooler in place of the drivers-side. :-)
11-26-02 | 02:39 PM
#112
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,533
Likes: 355
From: Stockton, CA
I haven't figured it out how to relocate the A/C condensor. The pipes on the A/C do not like to be re-bend. They crack. It can be done if you have a A/C shop to bend new pipes for you. You just put the A/C condensor in the middle to be use as a divider.
Chuck
Chuck
Originally posted by ptrhahn
If there was some way to keep the A/C condenser with the V-mount setup, it would probably be the best deal.
Say, how about re-mounting a new condensor in the hole for the second oil-cooler, then run a monster oil cooler in place of the drivers-side. :-)
If there was some way to keep the A/C condenser with the V-mount setup, it would probably be the best deal.
Say, how about re-mounting a new condensor in the hole for the second oil-cooler, then run a monster oil cooler in place of the drivers-side. :-)
11-26-02 | 02:42 PM
#113
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
From: South Florida
Why couldn't you simply mount the condenser in the same place wrt the radiator as in the stock configuration? Sure, it would interfere somewhat with airflow to the radiator...just as it does in stock form. It doesn't seem like the v-mount radiator would get significantly less air than a stock mounted setup, but maybe I'm wrong. Neither the AC performance nor the engine cooling in a stock setup is exactly optimal, so if there is less airflow that would possibly cause both systems to work poorly...but it doesn't seem that that would be so just from looking at it.
jds
jds
Originally posted by ptrhahn
If there was some way to keep the A/C condenser with the V-mount setup, it would probably be the best deal.
Say, how about re-mounting a new condensor in the hole for the second oil-cooler, then run a monster oil cooler in place of the drivers-side. :-)
If there was some way to keep the A/C condenser with the V-mount setup, it would probably be the best deal.
Say, how about re-mounting a new condensor in the hole for the second oil-cooler, then run a monster oil cooler in place of the drivers-side. :-)
11-26-02 | 02:50 PM
#114
The way I see it, we need the following:
1. Outside air temperature
2. Pressure/Temperature at the IC inlet
3. Pressure/Temperature at the IC outlet
Outside of this, it is all speculation.
1. Outside air temperature
2. Pressure/Temperature at the IC inlet
3. Pressure/Temperature at the IC outlet
Outside of this, it is all speculation.
11-26-02 | 03:43 PM
#118
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 2
From: IN
This kind of objective data from an extended track test would be ideal in comparing the two different types of ICs...
Originally posted by johnchabin
The way I see it, we need the following:
1. Outside air temperature
2. Pressure/Temperature at the IC inlet
3. Pressure/Temperature at the IC outlet
Outside of this, it is all speculation.
The way I see it, we need the following:
1. Outside air temperature
2. Pressure/Temperature at the IC inlet
3. Pressure/Temperature at the IC outlet
Outside of this, it is all speculation.
11-26-02 | 03:48 PM
#119
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 2
From: IN
Chuck,
This is distressing news on the FMIC. I was hoping to take Jason (Rx7 Store) up on his hellacious deal on the Greddy FMIC kits!
From what I've seen thus far, it appears the V-mount IC/Rad would be the ideal setup for the road racer, if his/her car were a dedicated race car.
For those of us who race our cars on the weekends, and drive them during the weekdays, we must choose between HMIC and SMIC--unless you can figure out a way to mount the A/C condenser on the V-mount
This is distressing news on the FMIC. I was hoping to take Jason (Rx7 Store) up on his hellacious deal on the Greddy FMIC kits!
From what I've seen thus far, it appears the V-mount IC/Rad would be the ideal setup for the road racer, if his/her car were a dedicated race car.
For those of us who race our cars on the weekends, and drive them during the weekdays, we must choose between HMIC and SMIC--unless you can figure out a way to mount the A/C condenser on the V-mount
Originally posted by rotaryextreme
V mount comes with its own radiator. You can't use the Koyo with it. V mount has to be purchased as an IC/Radiator combo. They work together. Buying just one of them is not going to work.
I can only tell you by my own experience. With a front mount intercooler, the water temperature of my car starts to go more than 110 C on a 100 F day when I was going at 120 mph+. I have a custom made 2" radiator. I find that front mount IC cannot withstand a long period of high speed driving during a hot day. Once I lower the speed to 100 mph, the water temp went down but when I brought it up to 120+, the water temp goes up again.
During a cold day such as 60-70F, it's ok. The water temp stays at about 95C even when I was driving 120+ mph. There is a 30-40 F drop in ambient temp so the water temp drops as well. No magic here.
Chuck
V mount comes with its own radiator. You can't use the Koyo with it. V mount has to be purchased as an IC/Radiator combo. They work together. Buying just one of them is not going to work.
I can only tell you by my own experience. With a front mount intercooler, the water temperature of my car starts to go more than 110 C on a 100 F day when I was going at 120 mph+. I have a custom made 2" radiator. I find that front mount IC cannot withstand a long period of high speed driving during a hot day. Once I lower the speed to 100 mph, the water temp went down but when I brought it up to 120+, the water temp goes up again.
During a cold day such as 60-70F, it's ok. The water temp stays at about 95C even when I was driving 120+ mph. There is a 30-40 F drop in ambient temp so the water temp drops as well. No magic here.
Chuck
11-26-02 | 04:00 PM
#120
Originally posted by SleepR1
Notice the IC fan used in conjunction with the Scoot vented hood!
Notice the IC fan used in conjunction with the Scoot vented hood!
I'm also making duct work for the IC to the hood.
It's all been sealed along the sides and feeds through a filter element into the turbo.Solves all my problems at once, I got a cold air intake and plenty of air to both IC and rad. Both run fans.
Thanks
11-26-02 | 09:18 PM
#121
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,533
Likes: 355
From: Stockton, CA
Because the power steering line is on the way and also the a/c piping has to be re-bend. Not an easy thing to do without breaking them. Trust me. I tried. I want A/C too. Driving on a 100F hot day without A/C isn't that much fun but I rather take the heat than the engine takes it.
Chuck
Chuck
Originally posted by bureau_c
Why couldn't you simply mount the condenser in the same place wrt the radiator as in the stock configuration? Sure, it would interfere somewhat with airflow to the radiator...just as it does in stock form. It doesn't seem like the v-mount radiator would get significantly less air than a stock mounted setup, but maybe I'm wrong. Neither the AC performance nor the engine cooling in a stock setup is exactly optimal, so if there is less airflow that would possibly cause both systems to work poorly...but it doesn't seem that that would be so just from looking at it.
jds
Why couldn't you simply mount the condenser in the same place wrt the radiator as in the stock configuration? Sure, it would interfere somewhat with airflow to the radiator...just as it does in stock form. It doesn't seem like the v-mount radiator would get significantly less air than a stock mounted setup, but maybe I'm wrong. Neither the AC performance nor the engine cooling in a stock setup is exactly optimal, so if there is less airflow that would possibly cause both systems to work poorly...but it doesn't seem that that would be so just from looking at it.
jds
11-26-02 | 09:20 PM
#122
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,533
Likes: 355
From: Stockton, CA
Are you who I think you are?? =)
Chuck
Chuck
Originally posted by Zero R
I'm also making duct work for the IC to the hood.
It's all been sealed along the sides and feeds through a filter element into the turbo.Solves all my problems at once, I got a cold air intake and plenty of air to both IC and rad. Both run fans.
Thanks
I'm also making duct work for the IC to the hood.
It's all been sealed along the sides and feeds through a filter element into the turbo.Solves all my problems at once, I got a cold air intake and plenty of air to both IC and rad. Both run fans.
Thanks
11-26-02 | 09:32 PM
#123
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 2
From: IN
Which FMIC were you using?
Originally posted by rotaryextreme
V mount comes with its own radiator. You can't use the Koyo with it. V mount has to be purchased as an IC/Radiator combo. They work together. Buying just one of them is not going to work.
I can only tell you by my own experience. With a front mount intercooler, the water temperature of my car starts to go more than 110 C on a 100 F day when I was going at 120 mph+. I have a custom made 2" radiator. I find that front mount IC cannot withstand a long period of high speed driving during a hot day. Once I lower the speed to 100 mph, the water temp went down but when I brought it up to 120+, the water temp goes up again.
During a cold day such as 60-70F, it's ok. The water temp stays at about 95C even when I was driving 120+ mph. There is a 30-40 F drop in ambient temp so the water temp drops as well. No magic here.
Chuck
V mount comes with its own radiator. You can't use the Koyo with it. V mount has to be purchased as an IC/Radiator combo. They work together. Buying just one of them is not going to work.
I can only tell you by my own experience. With a front mount intercooler, the water temperature of my car starts to go more than 110 C on a 100 F day when I was going at 120 mph+. I have a custom made 2" radiator. I find that front mount IC cannot withstand a long period of high speed driving during a hot day. Once I lower the speed to 100 mph, the water temp went down but when I brought it up to 120+, the water temp goes up again.
During a cold day such as 60-70F, it's ok. The water temp stays at about 95C even when I was driving 120+ mph. There is a 30-40 F drop in ambient temp so the water temp drops as well. No magic here.
Chuck