A-Spec

that was only temporary...this is what it actually looks like...

theman

Personally I love the BLITZ. I've done them in a couple of FDs. On the 93s it's a little easier just because the AC dryer bottle has a bolted on bracket that can turn while the 94-up have the bracket welded on. I think the hardest part of the install was bending the thicker line for the AC but that turned out fine, no biggy, just a lot of bitchin'!
A-spec got an incredible price, BLITZ has a terrible markup for dealers. But at 1350+ I think it's the most extensive kit for any price... it comes with everything, more than any of the other FD kits, and the quality is awesome. I installed Fluidynes and small drycell batts with these so I had to make the one extended bracket like A-spec but that was easy. And the temps on these cars have been nice and low with these rads. I'm a glutten for punishment so I even ran for a while with only one fan hooked up as an experiment and the temps were still below the stock setup norm.
I'm also into form and function, and the BLITZ have very nice symetrical piping and combined with the end tanks seem to have very little pressure drop and no difference in lag compared w/ stock.

A-Spec

how the he!l did you bend the big ones?? i couldn't bend mine at all! I decided to toss it because it was getting late and I needed the car tomorrow morning.

yeah I like the symetrical piping as well, all the other ones are weird looking...

David

Freaky Monkey007

y not just get a speraco ic?? I personaly dont have one but it just seems like the better idea. Custom fit, no relocation, brackets wherever. I think this is all true. And you can get the pipes the way you want them and get the polished if you want. just my .02 worth..

RussellTT94

what do you guys think of the HKS front mount. i've got the chance to pick an entire kit up for $600, so i was wondering if it was worth it. any info on it would be greatly appreciated.

Rotary93

Does the Greddy IC need to use a Greddy Elbow?

Jason

iTrader: (5)

I would say the Greddy 3 row is the nicest front mount intercooler on the market right now. The Greddy 2 row is also very nice and for around $1000 you cant beat it.

They make 2 variations for the Greddy 2 row. One uses the stock elbow and the other uses the Greddy elbow. The Greddy 3 row has to use the greddy elbow.

Jason
www.rx7store.net

JoeD

does the 3 row come with piping for stock twins?? also, what will happen if you run like 12 pounds of boost with a 3 row??

rexman7

are there many problems with over heating with fmic, im still trying to decide on fm or sm; any chance of a group buy on greddy 3 row?
rexman7

bajaman

I really have to agree with jimlab here......in all honesty, and my OPINION only, I think front mount is mainly show....and Jesus, some of the contortions and modifications....I mean some of you WILLINGLY took away the air conditioning just to have a FMIC????

Guys, all ya have to do is look at a Ferrari F-40......it is acknowledged as a must-have supercar by pretty much all of us, no?

Look at the intercoolers.....they are ON TOP OF THE ENGINE!
They are certainly going to get some airflow thru them via the louvered Lexan engine cover, but if ya all are thinking heat soak is a problem, well, evidently Ferrari didn't.........:p

I just would like to see some real world examples of high-end turbocharged cars that have big *** front mount intercoolers.....I am by NO MEANS an "expert" or being smart-*** here.....but when a car has millions of dollars of R&D put into it, and in the final iteration it DOESN'T have a front mount.....who are we to say that the factories don't have the best solution for the everyday world?

Rotary93

Which FMIC gives up the A/C?

Rotary93

You guys with the Greddy FMIC...How much of the front bumper did you have to trim?

JoeD

bajaman, the F40 cant have an FMIC becasue the engine is in the back of the car, behind the driver.

BTW, was Koenig that did a twin turbo conversion for the F40. i dont think stock is turbocharged.

jimlab

Front mount intercoolers really shine in examples where there is no underhood room for an intercooler. A perfect example is the MKIV Supra. The stock intercooler (good to 20+ psi) is a 5" thick brick stuck behind the passenger's side bumper inlet. However, there's no room to upgrade in that area, and no room under the hood, so the only solution is a FMIC. You will almost never see a 500+ RWHP Supra *without* a FMIC. It's the only place to mount the larger core required for additional cooling.

The RX-7 is fortunate in that there is additional room (once you relocate or eliminate a few things) for a very large underhood intercooler. The ASP Racing (M2 Performance) large intercooler has nearly the core area of many front mounts, has lower pressure drop, and cools just as effectively, as tests have shown. The only disadvantage is its size (and there's a medium-sized version which eliminates that problem and is even slightly more efficient) and the fact that it sits over the radiator.

From a performance point of view, it *may* heatsoak while the car is sitting or parked, but while the car is in motion, it cools every bit as well as a front mount intercooler, but does not put weight farther out on the nose of the car, and does not require cutting or eliminating components, or major diassembly of the car to install. It doesn't have as large a pressure drop, or as much lag to pressurize the system. Therefore the turbo system will likely have to produce a pound or so *less* pressure to reach the same intake manifold boost level, and that is simply more efficient and creates less heat, especially with the stock twins. It does not block air flow to the radiator. And finally, it is not prone to damage from rocks and road debris (or vandalism).

From an aesthetic point of view, I can see that the people who'd leave a carbon fiber hood "in the raw" would also want to hang the intercooler out where everyone can see it. That's fine, of course. But it also makes the car more attractive to theives and vandals, and ruins the sleeper motif, if you're into that sort of thing. However, it is a statement, and if you're going for a certain look, you can't get much flashier than a big polished intercooler behind your bumper.

The performance-minded people will buy underhood intercoolers, and the aesthetic-minded people will buy front mounts. I don't foresee that changing because of anything I might say about the shortcomings of putting a 3" thick strainer in front of the air flow for the radiator in a car which has a tradition of easily overheating...

JoeD

i honestly think that an underhood intercooler for a car that will not be raced on a track is a complete waste of money.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

I don't understand how people feel that the stock mount intercooler is anywhere close in cooling capacity to a front mount. The number one thing holding back a stock mount is you are trying to force a large amount of air through a 1 inch by 7 inch split in the front of the car. There is no way you are moving enough air through there to effectively cool a large stock mount. Maybe at speeds over 80 mph, but thats about it. Most people spend 80% of their driving below speeds of 50mph. If your car is street driven a SMIC is going to heat soak and be less effective than a front mount that sits in the flow of air. Most high H.P. RX-7's if not all use a front mount intercooler.
Pressure drop on front mounts is minimal and is offset by the colder charge temp.
One possible drawback to the front mount is allowing enough air to get through to the radiator. I have never heard of one overheating on the street because of that, although I have seen track cars overheat.

Dont flame me for this, its just my opinion and it could be way off

A-Spec

both the Mitsubishi Lancer EVOs and the Nissan Skylines have a front mount intercooler and they are BIG. Well they are not "high-end" cars but they both are detuned from their higher potential to 280hp. Also Audi S4 and 300z have 2 front mounted, but they are smaller and are located where our oil coolers are. Also the Japanese S13/14/15 all have one mounted on the passenger side(RHD).

on a sidenote, notice that even though you would think that Rally cars are exposed to rocks more and also they are more prone to frontal damage but a lot of them still use front mounts?

for the record, I like both the front mount and stock mount for the FD I agree that Mazda engineers probably knew about the overheating problem that's probably why they didn't put one in front of the radiator...

David

JoeD

you are absolutely right, Jason.

i have never heard of an incident where an FD with a FMIC has overheated. most people start to heat up while is heavy traffic. in that case, it makes no difference whatsoever if something is blocking the radiator, since there is no air flowing!

it cracks me up when i see a single turbo FD's with a SMIC. :p :p

JoeD

BTW, this thread was asking which FMIC is the best. not "FMIC vs. SMIC."

Mach2

JoeD,
the "fmic vs smic" was inevitable when a topic like this comes up. That's why in my first post I wrote "this is a delicate topic"! Anyway you made a few very good points, especially with the F40 comment. How would it be "physically" possible to get a fmic on a rear engine car? And even if you did, what would the pressure drop be?(probably everything). I also agree with Jason's comments. I just don't think that a smic can outperform a fmic. My 2 cents.
Rotary 93,
I think that if you don't mind doing a little extra cutting and disassembling then go with the Greddy. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that there are different versions. 2 row <15psi, 3 row >15psi. I just think there should be one with a wider effeciency cause what if you decide to go single later on? Are you going to throw away the old IC? Other than that I think it's a very nice IC. Btw, you have to cut aprox. 1.5-2in off the back of the front bumper to get it to fit.

JoeD

well, back to the original discussion...i dig the Apex GT FMIC. it will work great for stock turbos, and singles. (Pete from XS just ran a 10.6 running this same IC). also, its a good deal since it comes with intakes. the only downsides i see of it are that the core doesnt look as cool as the GReddy or Blitz. not the fact that its not up in your face, but i think the delta-flow fins look a little weird. also, with this FMIC, the AC will be kinda useless at speeds under ~40 MPH since the AC condenser must be relocated to a horizontal position. other than that, i think this FMIC is the way to go!

machinehead

How many of any of you have had both FM and SM? I have had both... well so far I have had 5, the PFS, Pettit med and large, the Apexi FM, and I now have the M2 Med. Sorry boys but the M2 med is the best... unless you are drag racing. It cools down very quickly once you start moving, say in traffic, and really does not require much air flow to do this. I never ran my A/C with the Apexi unit because you can see there is NO air to the condensor and since the fans are now way up with the radiator which is also way up far away from the condensor any idiot can see there is no cooling for the A/C. I did not want to play with a new a/c compressor plus lines and whatever else would blow up from running so much pressure. Hook up some a/c gauges and drive your car around with no fans and see how much pressure builds up. I thought of running an extra set of fans but said screw it in the end and bought the M2. It works very good.
But... for drag racing it kind of sucks. Why? Because you run, then IC gets hot and then you sit in line to run again... no air to cool it down, so it just stays warm. A little fan would most likely remedy this.
The only real drawback to the M2 is that it cost a lot of money... but the damn thing works like most M2 products... good!
Just for the record, I did not overheat with the Apexi unit, but my temps did rise. If you can say that this does not happen you are lying through your teeth.
Read Maximum Boost and see about IC ducting and how it works, it is better to have a small mouth like you have in the M2 duct or the air will just flow around the IC not go through it. It is science, I am not making this up.
I don't sell any of these products but I have had a few and you lose money every time you buy something and sell it later. It cost me a lot of money to find out which ones work best. But do what you want.

jimlab

Apparently the people downgrading the M2 Performance underhood intercoolers didn't happen to read the Project RX-7 intercooler testing article in SCC...

And I forgot, Jason. You weren't around when Kevin Wyum did exhaustive testing to prove that his intercooler design cooled almost identically to a front mount with less pressure drop through the core. So it's understandable that you'd believe differently...

JoeD, I'm still waiting for you to back up any of your pronouncements with something resembling fact rather than an opinion...

Bottom line is, with an air-to-air intercooler, you can't get any cooler than ambient temperature, and both the larger underhood and front mount intercoolers do an almost equal job of cooling to nearly that level (within 10-15 degrees or so). There are pros and cons to each, take your pick.

bajaman

The F-40 IS turbocharged from the factory, I am looking at a book on it right now.
478 hp in normal stock form, a factory "upgrade" was available to take the car to 675...... my God!

I know the where the engine is
I was simply pointing out that rather than designing the car with the intercoolers in the side of the car in more direct airflow, as seen in the XJ220 (yeah, I found an example of a high end turbo car with essentially "front" mount ICs ) that Ferrari must not have worried about heat soak too much.....

Johnny

I'm a fan of the "look" of the FMIC....but when it comes right down to it....I would chose a SMIC...I agree with Jim's statements about how Kevin Wyum did a lot of research when he did his large IC...in consenquence.. I have one of Kevin's old Race IC's and I couldnt be happier.