FD a dying platform. Am I crazy to get one?
07-05-12, 09:18 PM
#101
Dying platform??
A 1970 Chevelle SS is a long *dead* platform. So is a 1968 Mustang. Or a 1987 FC RX-7. Or a 1990 Skyline.
Lots of people buy them, modify them, enjoy them, sell them, etc. None of those owners care if their car's platform is "dead" or not.
Look at the auction prices on classic cars (which is what the FD is- a classic 90's supercar) and you will see that passionate people dont give a #$$% about their car's "platform" being unsupported by the manufacturer. They own them because they love the car.
A 1970 Chevelle SS is a long *dead* platform. So is a 1968 Mustang. Or a 1987 FC RX-7. Or a 1990 Skyline.
Lots of people buy them, modify them, enjoy them, sell them, etc. None of those owners care if their car's platform is "dead" or not.
Look at the auction prices on classic cars (which is what the FD is- a classic 90's supercar) and you will see that passionate people dont give a #$$% about their car's "platform" being unsupported by the manufacturer. They own them because they love the car.
07-06-12, 01:17 AM
#103
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if the FD a dying platform i dont think so, while many people who are going to build them have already built them there is still tons of room for mods. for example 20B's are starting to become more common and an FD with a street ported 20B and a large turbo is a street car that many cant touch. while its an older platform I still love it, its that pure sense of driving no traction control no driving aid besides ABS its just a pure blast to drive. i have owned everything from hunks of junk to 400AWHP STI to a built turbo 450WHP 350Z while they were a blast to drive and own and of course more modern than the FD i still own not one but 2 FD's and i plan to make improvements to mine and eventually pass it on as "dads" car to my kids when that time comes.
07-06-12, 07:35 AM
#104
Still ridiculously over priced for what you get. If you do it all yourself MAYBE it becomes justifiable. 2 rotor guys wtih nice setups have proven they can compete with 3 rotors at just about any competition besides the top of the top in drag racing. Even then the 2 rotor isnt that far behind.
Reliability, Im not sure you can really swing that in favor of the the 3 rotor either. Not really apples to apples comparing a NA 3Rotor to a 2 rotor running 30psi+ or 20psi+ on pump gas. Everyone likes to justify things to fit their view point or their decision, but facts are the facts.
There are a couple impressive 3 rotors out there getting it done, but there are a lot more out there with over heating issues, half assed swaps and just overall unimpressive results for the money/effort put forth.
Reliability, Im not sure you can really swing that in favor of the the 3 rotor either. Not really apples to apples comparing a NA 3Rotor to a 2 rotor running 30psi+ or 20psi+ on pump gas. Everyone likes to justify things to fit their view point or their decision, but facts are the facts.
There are a couple impressive 3 rotors out there getting it done, but there are a lot more out there with over heating issues, half assed swaps and just overall unimpressive results for the money/effort put forth.
07-06-12, 08:11 AM
#105
Sir Braps A lot
Still ridiculously over priced for what you get. If you do it all yourself MAYBE it becomes justifiable. 2 rotor guys wtih nice setups have proven they can compete with 3 rotors at just about any competition besides the top of the top in drag racing. Even then the 2 rotor isnt that far behind.
Reliability, Im not sure you can really swing that in favor of the the 3 rotor either. Not really apples to apples comparing a NA 3Rotor to a 2 rotor running 30psi+ or 20psi+ on pump gas. Everyone likes to justify things to fit their view point or their decision, but facts are the facts.
There are a couple impressive 3 rotors out there getting it done, but there are a lot more out there with over heating issues, half assed swaps and just overall unimpressive results for the money/effort put forth.
Reliability, Im not sure you can really swing that in favor of the the 3 rotor either. Not really apples to apples comparing a NA 3Rotor to a 2 rotor running 30psi+ or 20psi+ on pump gas. Everyone likes to justify things to fit their view point or their decision, but facts are the facts.
There are a couple impressive 3 rotors out there getting it done, but there are a lot more out there with over heating issues, half assed swaps and just overall unimpressive results for the money/effort put forth.
07-06-12, 12:00 PM
#108
There was a time when I was *this* close to putting a LSx into my FD, before I decided to go 3rotor. I had all the swap components and everything. I wanted to go to a more "exotic" dohc v8 as well, and looked into the LT5. The extremely high price to get one, and then availability of parts scared me away. My second choice was the toyota 1UZ 4.0L V8. Those can be had dirt cheap, only real issue it power. If you stay N/A, its quite hard to really put out respectable power.
After typing all of that I sort of find irony in my decision to go N/A 3-rotor, being its issues are exactly the same as I complained about the V8s above.
After typing all of that I sort of find irony in my decision to go N/A 3-rotor, being its issues are exactly the same as I complained about the V8s above.
07-06-12, 12:23 PM
#109
There was a time when I was *this* close to putting a LSx into my FD, before I decided to go 3rotor. I had all the swap components and everything. I wanted to go to a more "exotic" dohc v8 as well, and looked into the LT5. The extremely high price to get one, and then availability of parts scared me away. My second choice was the toyota 1UZ 4.0L V8. Those can be had dirt cheap, only real issue it power. If you stay N/A, its quite hard to really put out respectable power.
After typing all of that I sort of find irony in my decision to go N/A 3-rotor, being its issues are exactly the same as I complained about the V8s above.
After typing all of that I sort of find irony in my decision to go N/A 3-rotor, being its issues are exactly the same as I complained about the V8s above.
With that said, would you please explain to me why people choose to go NA 3 Rotor over just keeping the 2 rotor with BNRs sequential or a 2 Rotor with a 58mm Billet turob setup? I just cant understand the draw to the NA 3 rotor. It is slower than a properly setup stock sequential car across the whole power band unless you go to extremes like Logan from Defined. Even with his car you cant argue that the 3 rotor makes any significant torque. I guess I just simply dont understand spending all that money, time and effort for similar results you can get with throwing a full exhaust, water/meth and rechipped ecu on a stock car in a weekend.
What am I missing? Is it the sound and the fact that it is a 3rotor? Admittedly the 2 rotors sound like ****.
07-06-12, 12:46 PM
#111
I cant really give any objective reply to as why a N/A 3-rotor is "better". Just buying a 3-rotor longblock from Japan is ~4k, which then needs torn down and rebuilt. After adding all that you need to make some respectable power, you have a ton of money into it, for what in most cases will be 350-400whp tops. I would never suggest it to anyone as a cheap or easy way to go. For me, it was just all about a passion I had with the engine, stemmed from watching Re-A GT300 FDs. I like N/A engines, the immediate throttle response and linear power-band, combined with the sound of an unrestricted 3-rotor.. for me it was worth the price. That being said, I think you have to give them a bit more credit as far as power. No, theyll never be the animal a high boost 2-rotor can be, but Logans car is making 250+rwtq from like 2500rpm all the way to 10k. My engine will be sideport only so redline will be in the 8500rpm range and probably 375ish whp, but at that point I will go up against any car on stock twins, especially on a track where overheating will be an issue for a boosted car. But as I said , its not for everything and there really is no real reason to go this route other than :
1) Really wanting reliable N/A power, and
2) Wanting to stay rotary.
1) Really wanting reliable N/A power, and
2) Wanting to stay rotary.
This is not me being a smart *** or trying to be rude, please understand I simply am asking a question.
With that said, would you please explain to me why people choose to go NA 3 Rotor over just keeping the 2 rotor with BNRs sequential or a 2 Rotor with a 58mm Billet turob setup? I just cant understand the draw to the NA 3 rotor. It is slower than a properly setup stock sequential car across the whole power band unless you go to extremes like Logan from Defined. Even with his car you cant argue that the 3 rotor makes any significant torque. I guess I just simply dont understand spending all that money, time and effort for similar results you can get with throwing a full exhaust, water/meth and rechipped ecu on a stock car in a weekend.
What am I missing? Is it the sound and the fact that it is a 3rotor? Admittedly the 2 rotors sound like ****.
With that said, would you please explain to me why people choose to go NA 3 Rotor over just keeping the 2 rotor with BNRs sequential or a 2 Rotor with a 58mm Billet turob setup? I just cant understand the draw to the NA 3 rotor. It is slower than a properly setup stock sequential car across the whole power band unless you go to extremes like Logan from Defined. Even with his car you cant argue that the 3 rotor makes any significant torque. I guess I just simply dont understand spending all that money, time and effort for similar results you can get with throwing a full exhaust, water/meth and rechipped ecu on a stock car in a weekend.
What am I missing? Is it the sound and the fact that it is a 3rotor? Admittedly the 2 rotors sound like ****.
07-06-12, 12:58 PM
#112
DJ... I don't know where you have gotten your information on NA 3 rotors? First, they can make 330-370 whp fairly easily and torque is flat from 3000-8000+ rpm. Very different power from 13b turbo. Logan's 490+ whp NA 20b is pretty extreme as a comparison to any 13b turbo. Much more useable power under the curve and completely linear power delivery, which is certainly better on the track. Also, prices for NA 20b are not much different than a full-on single turbo 13b. And, while turbos can be made much more reliable with WI and everything done right, an NA 20b is inherently as simple and reliable as an NA 13a or b. You can do a pretty cheap 400 whp 13b single, but it will still have the non-linear turbo delivery. Very different motors and power delivery. Not being pushy, but, have you ever driven an NA 20b? Most people who have driven mine or Logan's have come away pretty impressed and seem to get why someone does it.
Gordon
Gordon
Gordon, have you posted graphs of your dyno? Im pretty sure a stock sequential car at 15lbs will have the same powerband or possibly better than your powerband. It would be interesting to overlay the two graphs to see the real difference.
Used 20B longblock(non blown up) $4500.00
-Rebuild and street port to make decent NA Power-$2500.00
-Subframe-$1600.00
-ECU-$1200.00
-Custom header-$1000.00
That is just a start and that is over $10k.
Like I said everyone will argue to try to justify the route they chose, but at the end of the day you have to sit back and look at the numbers. Im not knocking anyone for going that route, I just simply do not understand.
I dont rule out a 20B in my future by any means, but after looking into NA 20B setups years ago I came to the conclusion I can build a very similar power band for a fraction of the cost and headache. Unless it is for race only, I cant understand why people wouldnt throw a quick responding turbon on a 20B and just have an incredible all around power band instead of one similar to a stock FD with $2k worth of modifications.
07-06-12, 01:00 PM
#113
I cant really give any objective reply to as why a N/A 3-rotor is "better". Just buying a 3-rotor longblock from Japan is ~4k, which then needs torn down and rebuilt. After adding all that you need to make some respectable power, you have a ton of money into it, for what in most cases will be 350-400whp tops. I would never suggest it to anyone as a cheap or easy way to go. For me, it was just all about a passion I had with the engine, stemmed from watching Re-A GT300 FDs. I like N/A engines, the immediate throttle response and linear power-band, combined with the sound of an unrestricted 3-rotor.. for me it was worth the price. That being said, I think you have to give them a bit more credit as far as power. No, theyll never be the animal a high boost 2-rotor can be, but Logans car is making 250+rwtq from like 2500rpm all the way to 10k. My engine will be sideport only so redline will be in the 8500rpm range and probably 375ish whp, but at that point I will go up against any car on stock twins, especially on a track where overheating will be an issue for a boosted car. But as I said , its not for everything and there really is no real reason to go this route other than :
1) Really wanting reliable N/A power, and
2) Wanting to stay rotary.
1) Really wanting reliable N/A power, and
2) Wanting to stay rotary.
07-06-12, 01:40 PM
#114
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I'm a little late to the party, I'm not on as often as I would like lately but this discussion has caught my attention. I feel like I'm in a somewhat unique position. I'm a rotary guy, no questions asked. But the vast majority of rx7 owners that I know are v8 owners because that's what most of the cars around here are (yay for NE where the v8 rules).
This is a joke, you find these types of people in both communities. Try meeting the people in real life. I know a quite a few corvette guys that are really great people, tons of fun to hang out with and are really nice to any random person with questions. I've noticed time again both on forums and in real life rotary people with their heads so far up in the clouds that they treat anybody who doesn't know anything about these cars like uneducated children who should "go stick with their v8", it creates this negative stigma against us that results in misconceptions that are demonstrated below.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I, a rotary guy, was welcomed to SevenNotStock (the v8 rx7 event) last year with open arms and a cold beer. I had a great time meeting new people and learning more about the v8 rx7 than in my (admittedly limited) time on the v8 forums. Was I the butt of some rotary jokes? You bet, but it was all in good fun and I knew it and there was no ill-intent. On the flip side a large number of those same guys recounted stories of poor treatment that they received at the hands of "traditional" rx7 owners and felt that they were unwelcome at events such as DGRR and even SevenStock at times.
Another perfect example of the poor treatment that some great folks have received simply for their choice of motor. I preach keeping an open mind everywhere I go because I know that if you can get past the OMG CAR RUINED V8 SWAP, both camps can find stuff that they have in common and I feel they'll ultimately be able to get along. Well for the most part, there's always a few people that will be jerks, but they're usually on the fringe anyways.
The RX-7 community alone is reason enough to make the purchase. The support here is the best I’ve seen on any site. I can search almost any issue and find a resolution.
Rotary community= Educated people who aren’t afraid to experiment
Corvette community= Try talking to one of them at a meet or online and you will get the picture.
Rotary community= Educated people who aren’t afraid to experiment
Corvette community= Try talking to one of them at a meet or online and you will get the picture.
Wait... so V8 swapped Rx7's are "allowed" at DGRR? Do the owners catch alot of ****? I'd love to come, but I thought:
a) We werent welcome
b) We'd catch so much **** that even if we were officially welcomed it wouldnt be worth dealing with all the asshats ruining my time down there.
If V8's are welcome and the die hard rotary guys aren't *** hats (assuming you arent an asshat to them first, which I wouldnt be ) I know myself and someone else might come next year
a) We werent welcome
b) We'd catch so much **** that even if we were officially welcomed it wouldnt be worth dealing with all the asshats ruining my time down there.
If V8's are welcome and the die hard rotary guys aren't *** hats (assuming you arent an asshat to them first, which I wouldnt be ) I know myself and someone else might come next year
Tried to harm me? No. Acted like an *** hole and made snide comments out loud about "ruining the car" and 'why would you do such a horrible thing'? Absolutely. Does that bother me? Only enough to roll my eyes at them and think "why do you care it isnt your car". I just go about my business. I wouldn't intentionally surround myself with a crowd of hundreds of people who acted the same on purpose though as it would certainly ruin any enjoyment I would have had.
I'd be approaching the event as a cool collection of CARS, not rotaries. Granted, most all would be rotary powered, but that doesnt bother me. I dont hate the engine
I'd be approaching the event as a cool collection of CARS, not rotaries. Granted, most all would be rotary powered, but that doesnt bother me. I dont hate the engine
07-06-12, 01:48 PM
#115
I've never been to 7stock but I've been to DGRR and some other events. I've yet to see this happen. I expected it but have yet to witness or hear it. All the smack talk was done online and in person, everyone was very nice. I think people are pretty good about separating debate and jokes.
07-06-12, 01:53 PM
#116
Tried to harm me? No. Acted like an *** hole and made snide comments out loud about "ruining the car" and 'why would you do such a horrible thing'? Absolutely. Does that bother me? Only enough to roll my eyes at them and think "why do you care it isnt your car". I just go about my business. I wouldn't intentionally surround myself with a crowd of hundreds of people who acted the same on purpose though as it would certainly ruin any enjoyment I would have had.
I'd be approaching the event as a cool collection of CARS, not rotaries. Granted, most all would be rotary powered, but that doesnt bother me. I dont hate the engine
I'd be approaching the event as a cool collection of CARS, not rotaries. Granted, most all would be rotary powered, but that doesnt bother me. I dont hate the engine
07-06-12, 02:01 PM
#117
Rxmfn7... Completely agree.
DJ... Only dyno graphs I have ever had were done 2+ years ago and I honestly don't have them, but I have been very happy with the motor and power. I think the extremely flat torque curve is what is most impressive. All NA graphs I have seen show the same thing. NA motors make exactly the same torque from somewhere around 20-some hundred to 8,000 or more. I think mine made around 170-180 ft lbs across the board, so I was making 300-310-ish at 9,000. Its up from there now, but my goals of reliability and refinement meant no pp or semi-pp, which is where Logan gets the big power gains.
You do not go NA 20b if cheap power is your goal. You have to want the linear power-band an instant throttle response and be willing to pay for it. A V8 is a cheaper way to get most of what you get functionally with an NA 20b, but he 20b is a rotary and I still like the idea of a "better" rotary Rx7 instead of the piston swap... personally. I think i you drove one, you would understand even if you still preferred the single turbo 13b or V8 swap.
Gordon
DJ... Only dyno graphs I have ever had were done 2+ years ago and I honestly don't have them, but I have been very happy with the motor and power. I think the extremely flat torque curve is what is most impressive. All NA graphs I have seen show the same thing. NA motors make exactly the same torque from somewhere around 20-some hundred to 8,000 or more. I think mine made around 170-180 ft lbs across the board, so I was making 300-310-ish at 9,000. Its up from there now, but my goals of reliability and refinement meant no pp or semi-pp, which is where Logan gets the big power gains.
You do not go NA 20b if cheap power is your goal. You have to want the linear power-band an instant throttle response and be willing to pay for it. A V8 is a cheaper way to get most of what you get functionally with an NA 20b, but he 20b is a rotary and I still like the idea of a "better" rotary Rx7 instead of the piston swap... personally. I think i you drove one, you would understand even if you still preferred the single turbo 13b or V8 swap.
Gordon
07-06-12, 02:12 PM
#118
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I'd say in my experience, in real life, the rotary community has been alot better. I have yet to meet a bad rotary guy yet but I can't say the same about most of the other communities. Then again, in both our cases, our sampling size is to small to say anything definitive.
I've never been to 7stock but I've been to DGRR and some other events. I've yet to see this happen. I expected it but have yet to witness or hear it. All the smack talk was done online and in person, everyone was very nice. I think people are pretty good about separating debate and jokes.
I have noticed that most of your posts in this thread seem to align with my opinions. Mostly. I truly enjoy finding other like (read: open) minded individuals, it makes for progress rather than stagnation and fighting.
07-07-12, 05:47 PM
#120
Most people will state their suggest bhp because its more impressive, its for magazine readers.
Even if it was 350rwhp for his STOCK LS2 FD, thats still very quick for a car that light. Although i dont know of anyone who will do the LS swap to the FD and keep it bone stock. Even an OTR intake and an exhaust will net 30rwhp for these engines. Put on headers and a tune and you're looking at 50rwhp+ for all those mods.
Imagine that, 2500 bucks for 50rwhp.
07-07-12, 05:53 PM
#121
Wastegate John
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Most people will state their suggest bhp because its more impressive, its for magazine readers.
Even if it was 350rwhp for his STOCK LS2 FD, thats still very quick for a car that light. Although i dont know of anyone who will do the LS swap to the FD and keep it bone stock. Even an OTR intake and an exhaust will net 30rwhp for these engines. Put on headers and a tune and you're looking at 50rwhp+ for all those mods.
Imagine that, 2500 bucks for 50rwhp.
Even if it was 350rwhp for his STOCK LS2 FD, thats still very quick for a car that light. Although i dont know of anyone who will do the LS swap to the FD and keep it bone stock. Even an OTR intake and an exhaust will net 30rwhp for these engines. Put on headers and a tune and you're looking at 50rwhp+ for all those mods.
Imagine that, 2500 bucks for 50rwhp.
You can gain about 70 rwhp over stock with a sequental FD for less than that.
07-07-12, 06:03 PM
#122
But, now you're making 400rwhp naturally aspirated.
Instead of 325rwhp and having all sorts of the FI problems our cars get. And sequential too? exactly how many FD's have the working sequential system?
lol Come on now.
Or how about for 5500 you can have 550rwhp with a SC for these engines?
Sign me up when i can spend 5500 to get 550rwhp in my rotary.
07-07-12, 06:57 PM
#123
Wastegate John
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Definitely.
But, now you're making 400rwhp naturally aspirated.
Instead of 325rwhp and having all sorts of the FI problems our cars get.
What problems do we get? When my car was sequental I had zero problems with it. Modded correctly these cars are reliable.
And sequential too? Yes sequental, non sequental cars will have more with the same mods.
exactly how many FD's have the working sequential system? Why does that matter? Just because there are not as many left does not make what I said irrelevant.
lol Come on now.
Or how about for 5500 you can have 550rwhp with a SC for these engines?
Sign me up when i can spend 5500 to get 550rwhp in my rotary. If I did not change my EMS, my setup would be just about $5500 and be capable of that power.
But, now you're making 400rwhp naturally aspirated.
Instead of 325rwhp and having all sorts of the FI problems our cars get.
What problems do we get? When my car was sequental I had zero problems with it. Modded correctly these cars are reliable.
And sequential too? Yes sequental, non sequental cars will have more with the same mods.
exactly how many FD's have the working sequential system? Why does that matter? Just because there are not as many left does not make what I said irrelevant.
lol Come on now.
Or how about for 5500 you can have 550rwhp with a SC for these engines?
Sign me up when i can spend 5500 to get 550rwhp in my rotary. If I did not change my EMS, my setup would be just about $5500 and be capable of that power.
...
07-07-12, 07:22 PM
#124
I dont need to list the problems we get.
This 3rd gen section is proof of that enough.
Im talking more about sequential problems. Troubleshooting?? All the crazy boost patterns?
If it was full proof, people wouldnt convert to non sequential. I mean why would someone go non seq if it wasnt for the sequential problems? Because they like having zero torque to about 4000rpm??
Also please post your 5500 dollar for 550rwhp setup, because if this is true, then i guess 99% of the people here looking for more power are doing it wrong.
This 3rd gen section is proof of that enough.
Im talking more about sequential problems. Troubleshooting?? All the crazy boost patterns?
If it was full proof, people wouldnt convert to non sequential. I mean why would someone go non seq if it wasnt for the sequential problems? Because they like having zero torque to about 4000rpm??
Also please post your 5500 dollar for 550rwhp setup, because if this is true, then i guess 99% of the people here looking for more power are doing it wrong.
07-07-12, 10:47 PM
#125
Wastegate John
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I dont need to list the problems we get.
This 3rd gen section is proof of that enough.
The problems people have are because they do not understand how the system works. If more people would follow some of the how to's there would be a lot less frustrated people. Then they would be more inclined to keep the sequental system
Im talking more about sequential problems. Troubleshooting?? All the crazy boost patterns?
Troubleshooting is not hard if you test the sub systems methodically.
If it was full proof, people wouldnt convert to non sequential. I mean why would someone go non seq if it wasnt for the sequential problems? Because they like having zero torque to about 4000rpm??
See above posts for my reasons
Also please post your 5500 dollar for 550rwhp setup, because if this is true, then i guess 99% of the people here looking for more power are doing it wrong. You do realize I have a build thread on this forum right?
This 3rd gen section is proof of that enough.
The problems people have are because they do not understand how the system works. If more people would follow some of the how to's there would be a lot less frustrated people. Then they would be more inclined to keep the sequental system
Im talking more about sequential problems. Troubleshooting?? All the crazy boost patterns?
Troubleshooting is not hard if you test the sub systems methodically.
If it was full proof, people wouldnt convert to non sequential. I mean why would someone go non seq if it wasnt for the sequential problems? Because they like having zero torque to about 4000rpm??
See above posts for my reasons
Also please post your 5500 dollar for 550rwhp setup, because if this is true, then i guess 99% of the people here looking for more power are doing it wrong. You do realize I have a build thread on this forum right?
...