FD a dying platform. Am I crazy to get one?
06-18-12, 09:03 AM
#51
Yea...
In terms of utility and numbers, you definitely get more with the LS swap for your money. This shouldn't even be a question. After the swap, you get power, a stronger tranny and no other supporting engine mods needed well into the future. If you go for a well built single turbo rotary, people forget how many supporting mods and little tid bits are needed. The LS swap is just simpler and less headache. I don't think anyone can really argue that fact.
In terms of utility and numbers, you definitely get more with the LS swap for your money. This shouldn't even be a question. After the swap, you get power, a stronger tranny and no other supporting engine mods needed well into the future. If you go for a well built single turbo rotary, people forget how many supporting mods and little tid bits are needed. The LS swap is just simpler and less headache. I don't think anyone can really argue that fact.
06-18-12, 10:13 AM
#52
You're also comparing a car that was priced in the 40k mark in the early 90's to a car that was in the 20k mark in the 00's.
Honda engines are designed the way they are to be streetable/get good gas mileage at low end vs their top end which makes all the power.
S2k weighs in at ~2800lbs with 200whp priced similarly to a Miata (2100 @~120whp) I really dont see you're points in Honda messing up on the s2k. They made it to be a mid-priced roadster that has decent pickup and fun to drive. Not everyone can own a FI sports car due to the maintenance and up front cost. S2k was (IMO) the right choice for Honda out of box.
And I'll agree with 1qwik7. Comparing the gains from bolts on a FI car to N/A car is not even close to being the same. Sure the 7 was designed that way, it also has 3x the price tag from factory then the s2k after adjusted for inflation. So whats the point? And drag times? come on, most of us didn't choose a fd for the drag times either...
Anyways back on subject. I personally haven't ever found a NSX owner that I've liked as a person. They've always been totally ****** to me since they own an "exotic" and I own a "rice-burner" and ask "so what is that, the 6th or 7th motor?" or "got apex seals?" I mean you get that with everyone but idk, the NSX guys just have rubbed me the wrong way.
Also another thought about parts. The fd3s chassis was made all the way til 2002 in japan with close to 70,000 produced and still being used heavily in the private sector for TA, drift, etc over there. Not to mention you're comparing parts availability to an almost equally rare early 90's sports car.
Honda engines are designed the way they are to be streetable/get good gas mileage at low end vs their top end which makes all the power.
S2k weighs in at ~2800lbs with 200whp priced similarly to a Miata (2100 @~120whp) I really dont see you're points in Honda messing up on the s2k. They made it to be a mid-priced roadster that has decent pickup and fun to drive. Not everyone can own a FI sports car due to the maintenance and up front cost. S2k was (IMO) the right choice for Honda out of box.
And I'll agree with 1qwik7. Comparing the gains from bolts on a FI car to N/A car is not even close to being the same. Sure the 7 was designed that way, it also has 3x the price tag from factory then the s2k after adjusted for inflation. So whats the point? And drag times? come on, most of us didn't choose a fd for the drag times either...
Anyways back on subject. I personally haven't ever found a NSX owner that I've liked as a person. They've always been totally ****** to me since they own an "exotic" and I own a "rice-burner" and ask "so what is that, the 6th or 7th motor?" or "got apex seals?" I mean you get that with everyone but idk, the NSX guys just have rubbed me the wrong way.
Also another thought about parts. The fd3s chassis was made all the way til 2002 in japan with close to 70,000 produced and still being used heavily in the private sector for TA, drift, etc over there. Not to mention you're comparing parts availability to an almost equally rare early 90's sports car.
I didn't say they messed up on the S2k. I simply said that Honds makes awesome cars, that are under powered. I've driven a stock S2k..... it was under powered. I've driven a supercharged S2k making 340whp, it was a very fun and capable car. This is my opinion. I probably shouldn't have compared it to an FD.
But then how can you compare an FI car to an NA car?
Ok ill compare, the FD has 255hp stock and the s2k has 250hp stock lol. The FD is FI.
Thats why i stated the rx8, because thats a more comparable car to the s2k, because they're both NA. An NA rotary, whether its a turboless REW or the renensis will get destroyed by the F20 or the F22.
Honda's intention was never to make gobbles of power, thats the whole idea to VTEC. Its main objective is fuel efficiency, and reliability. 2 things a rotary will never have. And especially NOT a turbo rotary, PERIOD. The renensis failed majorly at both categories, and thats NA too. Leave it to honda to produce small engines that can get great MPG, make good power and be reliable.
Rotary engines dont have torque. And slapping a turbo still wont give it to them. A rotary engine will never make low end torque. And strangely, you CAN modify an F20/22 to produce better low end torque. Thats where the beauty of piston engines still reign.
Ok ill compare, the FD has 255hp stock and the s2k has 250hp stock lol. The FD is FI.
Thats why i stated the rx8, because thats a more comparable car to the s2k, because they're both NA. An NA rotary, whether its a turboless REW or the renensis will get destroyed by the F20 or the F22.
Honda's intention was never to make gobbles of power, thats the whole idea to VTEC. Its main objective is fuel efficiency, and reliability. 2 things a rotary will never have. And especially NOT a turbo rotary, PERIOD. The renensis failed majorly at both categories, and thats NA too. Leave it to honda to produce small engines that can get great MPG, make good power and be reliable.
Rotary engines dont have torque. And slapping a turbo still wont give it to them. A rotary engine will never make low end torque. And strangely, you CAN modify an F20/22 to produce better low end torque. Thats where the beauty of piston engines still reign.
Not so obvious! let me link you this ( from the audio visual forums ) the FD is alot more then just turbos , and the rotary engine as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQkhE...layer_embedded
However, you have shown me a video of race cars. FD's that compete typically have a peripheral ported 13b. In the real world, my turbo rotary will destroy the power of those cars and still idle in traffic with cold A/C. Turbo's and rotaries are like pee's & carrots
. A small displacement engine that loves to rev, and an induction system that builds power through exhaust energy.....
06-18-12, 11:13 AM
#53
FREAK ALL OUT!!!
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48 miles,! He bought a new camaro, drove it home and dropped an ls7 in it.
Supernaut- That's all my point was. The simple effect really sunk in when I was at a meet and a guy asked "you don't have a wideband?" I laughed to my self.... No more gadgets!
Supernaut- That's all my point was. The simple effect really sunk in when I was at a meet and a guy asked "you don't have a wideband?" I laughed to my self.... No more gadgets!
Last edited by FearNoPiston; 06-18-12 at 11:35 AM. Reason: H
06-18-12, 04:57 PM
#55
Dude, that is suuuuch a huge deal. As cool as all my cute little knick knacks are, when I look back and think about how much they cost, I cringe. Even just the research that went into everything was alot compared to just doing the swap. The majority v8 stuff is just like...uhhh headers and cams. That might turn some people off but I can defintely see the appeal.
06-18-12, 05:29 PM
#56
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Dude, that is suuuuch a huge deal. As cool as all my cute little knick knacks are, when I look back and think about how much they cost, I cringe. Even just the research that went into everything was alot compared to just doing the swap. The majority v8 stuff is just like...uhhh headers and cams. That might turn some people off but I can defintely see the appeal.
Yeah v8 stuff is a different nature and was an adjustment but man I love winning... its damn hard to beat a 2700lb street car with instant 400+ torque.
-Chance
06-19-12, 02:07 AM
#57
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Rx7's with v8 swaps lose what makes them unique. If I wanted a light car with a v8, I'd get a vette and put a supercharger on it for about the same price, and not ruin a 7.
06-19-12, 05:52 AM
#58
I understand why people do the swap in these cars noW. Now if were talking about the C6, I would retract my above statement since I think that's a better looking car than the FD. Even comes with a choice of great engines depending on year and model. Ls2, ls3, or ls7.
I solely believe people will appreciate the swap once they taste the v8 power. Some might say well my dad has a Tahoe and its nothing special. Lol no..I mean a proper v8 in a light sports car. Or even a modified cobra or something in relation to high HP v8..
I had the same mentality as you. I said v8's are dumb and ill never do the swap. After tasting my friends 500+HP cobra and a 500+ HP c6, I fell in love. AC, comfort, INSTANT torque everywhere. You can't go wrong. While I didn't do the swap in my FD, I did buy a v8 car because of this experience. Its a much bigger heavier car than the FD but its still a blast to drive, comfy, has AC and still plenty fast for a daily driver.
Like fear piston said, some people probably go through all single Turbo trouble cause its exciting piecing all The parts together for the final product. Then driving what you did the research on etc etc. I'm sure its fun.
But most are you are delusional if you think a v8 isn't a better bang for buck for these cars. Unless you're RE amemiya himself and can build bulletproof rotaries in your bedroom each night and can tune your *** off to keep the car perfect, it just doesn't add up.
06-19-12, 06:57 AM
#59
People have been putting V8's in **** for years. The Rx7 isn't any different. Rotaries are an enthusiast's engine.
The life of a rock star is chaotic, full of ups and downs, and often destructive. But they are uniquely coveted because of that lifestyle. They live on the edge, take risks, and step outside the norm.
Rotary engines are rock stars. Now slap the water to it, and crank that **** to 25psi
The life of a rock star is chaotic, full of ups and downs, and often destructive. But they are uniquely coveted because of that lifestyle. They live on the edge, take risks, and step outside the norm.
Rotary engines are rock stars. Now slap the water to it, and crank that **** to 25psi
06-19-12, 08:45 AM
#60
The fact that an ls into an fd is one of the most common because of how easy it is to do it is why its still praised.
Rotary engines are an enthusiast engine. So are the old VW beetle engines. Doesn't mean it's any good or you can't fit something in there that's better and more efficient.
Not saying the rotary isn't good. Its an awesome engine but the points were touched on in this thread on why people stay rotary and why people go ls.
Rotary engines are an enthusiast engine. So are the old VW beetle engines. Doesn't mean it's any good or you can't fit something in there that's better and more efficient.
Not saying the rotary isn't good. Its an awesome engine but the points were touched on in this thread on why people stay rotary and why people go ls.
06-19-12, 09:19 AM
#62
I really hate listening to this argument about getting a vette. We all know it isn't the same and it certainly doesn't ruin an FD. If you want to talk about ruining an FD, from what I've seen, a higher % of v8 guys keep their cars immaculate compared to the beat up rotarys I have seen. FDs are also unique for other reasons than the rotary. The rotary is one of many things that make the FD awesome and unique. Saying otherwise isn't giving the car the credit it deserves.
06-19-12, 09:33 AM
#63
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Who cares LSX, 3 rotor, JZ etc..... Different strokes for different folks.
That said though my flavor is a twin turbo FD making 300 at the wheels w/ a HF cat, PFS exhaust and nicely setup susp to DD. The sound and feel is something I'll never get tired of.
That said though my flavor is a twin turbo FD making 300 at the wheels w/ a HF cat, PFS exhaust and nicely setup susp to DD. The sound and feel is something I'll never get tired of.
06-19-12, 10:12 PM
#66
My 93 VR touring stickered for somewhere around $35k.
While the AP1 S2k base price was $34.9 and the AP2 CR was $36k plus an extra $1000 if you wanted A/C and a stereo put back in.
Any S2000 that sells in the $20's is a used car. And they're slowly coming further down in price as I've seen them as low as $14k.
In that sense, the FD is the better buy.
06-19-12, 10:29 PM
#67
https://www.rx7club.com/other-engine-conversions-non-v-8-118/
Not that I give a ****. As long as my FDs are running I couldn't care less about what anyone else has under the hood.
06-20-12, 03:22 PM
#68
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You don't have to get angry and start making unknowledgable stabs at v8 rx7s, I have not insulted you or any other rotary owner. I built and daily drove my rotary Fd and loved it..... I just wanted a more affordable and reliable approach which I think more rx7 owners should really consider the whole picture, especially considering this topic has to do with maintaining a car with a motor that parts are becoming more expensive and rare for.
.
06-20-12, 03:54 PM
#71
Actually, the FD and S2k were priced very similarly when they first released.
My 93 VR touring stickered for somewhere around $35k.
While the AP1 S2k base price was $34.9 and the AP2 CR was $36k plus an extra $1000 if you wanted A/C and a stereo put back in.
Any S2000 that sells in the $20's is a used car. And they're slowly coming further down in price as I've seen them as low as $14k.
In that sense, the FD is the better buy.
My 93 VR touring stickered for somewhere around $35k.
While the AP1 S2k base price was $34.9 and the AP2 CR was $36k plus an extra $1000 if you wanted A/C and a stereo put back in.
Any S2000 that sells in the $20's is a used car. And they're slowly coming further down in price as I've seen them as low as $14k.
In that sense, the FD is the better buy.
For a person using this car everyday no its not.
The s2k is newer, more reliable, easier to work on, and have more readily parts available.
People need to face the fact the FD is old, in the right hands and with enough money its nearly unstoppable for the value. Other than that its probably the worse car to get if you want performance. The FS section is proof of that.
06-20-12, 04:39 PM
#74
My 2 cents..
OP, There are plenty of parts still available for FDs and I believe for a long time to come. There are few cars out there where you can change pretty much everything aftermarket if you want to.. and even V8s if you like.
And talking about V8... I'm from the land of V8s and seen V8 swaps since it was popularized by Hinson. One of my best friend in town had one and after just over a month later, he bought a C5 Z06. He's reasoning, why spend the money when you can pick up a more modern car for similar price. I'm not against the swap but since the swap, I've seen LSx swapped FDs everywhere and at the same time they have separated this community into two (except few). I've invited those LSx 7 owners to my event for years and this year only one showed up. Bottomline, people should respect what they do to these cars, but in my opinion, if I were to put a LSx into an FD, I would just go buy a C6 Z06... And If I wanted a reliable fun car with pistons, I would go buy an Elise, S2k, Evo, Sti, or many many other fun piston cars before I put one into an FD.
And regarding NSX... well, many of you know how I feel about them..
OP, There are plenty of parts still available for FDs and I believe for a long time to come. There are few cars out there where you can change pretty much everything aftermarket if you want to.. and even V8s if you like.
And talking about V8... I'm from the land of V8s and seen V8 swaps since it was popularized by Hinson. One of my best friend in town had one and after just over a month later, he bought a C5 Z06. He's reasoning, why spend the money when you can pick up a more modern car for similar price. I'm not against the swap but since the swap, I've seen LSx swapped FDs everywhere and at the same time they have separated this community into two (except few). I've invited those LSx 7 owners to my event for years and this year only one showed up. Bottomline, people should respect what they do to these cars, but in my opinion, if I were to put a LSx into an FD, I would just go buy a C6 Z06... And If I wanted a reliable fun car with pistons, I would go buy an Elise, S2k, Evo, Sti, or many many other fun piston cars before I put one into an FD.
And regarding NSX... well, many of you know how I feel about them..
06-20-12, 06:43 PM
#75
And yeah, as it sits the FD has 2 manual boost controllers keeping the boost at 8-6-8 until PFC and fuel pump etc can be safely upgraded. Those mods + stock computer = boom.
Probably will take it down to R3 in Santa Ana to have it tuned and dialed. Here we go.