FD a dying platform. Am I crazy to get one?
06-14-12 | 01:01 PM
#26
OP, the FD is a dying platform. We are getting less and less support from Mazda and more and more people are going to have to go v8 or fight over leftover parts so don't bother. The less new FD owners, the more parts for me!
Seriously though, I think within 5 - 10 years we are going to have a really rough time finding parts.
Seriously though, I think within 5 - 10 years we are going to have a really rough time finding parts.
06-14-12 | 01:12 PM
#27
The SF Bay area isn't too bad for tuners. I had my engine rebuilt and tuned at SR Motorsports (est bay) a bit over 10 years ago. NO issues since then (well, OK, I just had a radiator fan motor die - and found out how pricey new ones are). My car is a semi-daily fair weather driver and gets about a half-dozen autocrosses a year.
I believe Rick's performance is also in the bay area, no direct experience though. And there are probably others. I do much of my own maintenance, the factory shop manual is quite good and well worth the price. These forums are also great technical info.
My biased opinion is that if you find a good one (sounds like you have) go for it! It seems really hard to beat the performance and style for anywhere close to the price of these cars.
I believe Rick's performance is also in the bay area, no direct experience though. And there are probably others. I do much of my own maintenance, the factory shop manual is quite good and well worth the price. These forums are also great technical info.
My biased opinion is that if you find a good one (sounds like you have) go for it! It seems really hard to beat the performance and style for anywhere close to the price of these cars.
06-14-12 | 07:31 PM
#29
I used to drive a Honda prelude 1999....and that car was reliable and fun to drive but the tranny sucked in it. The 2nd gear synchro locked me out when shifting fast and I also had 2 times where I was locked out of reverse...and had to do some tricks to get it unstuck.
The 7 is reliable and great......bad on mileage....and can be completely unreliable in the wrong hands.....or for most people unreliable. Spend a little money into it and I think it is actually more reliable than any car when you look at the abuse it can take day in and day out.
So spend the money on cooling the engine.....on water injection....and swapping to 2 cycle oil being injected into the engine. That cures the carbon/heat problem which is the leader for the death of the rotary.
The 7 is reliable and great......bad on mileage....and can be completely unreliable in the wrong hands.....or for most people unreliable. Spend a little money into it and I think it is actually more reliable than any car when you look at the abuse it can take day in and day out.
So spend the money on cooling the engine.....on water injection....and swapping to 2 cycle oil being injected into the engine. That cures the carbon/heat problem which is the leader for the death of the rotary.
06-14-12 | 09:43 PM
#31
I have owned 4 FB's... 1 FC (for only a week) and now have 3 FD's in the house hold.
Both my sons DAILY drive their FD's with NO issues. My oldest has driven his everyday for the past 3 yrs and my other son has daily driven his everyday for the past yr. I daily drove mine for the first 8 months of ownership and put over 10K miles on her before I decided to get a DD because of the gas mileage.
At first I did not enjoy my FD as much a my FB but after driving my FD the way Mazda intended I can honestly say I enjoy it more than any FB that I have owned..The handling and brakes are 100% better than the 1st gen..
Also, I will tell you the same thing I tell everyone else that ask me about the FD's reliability....
ANY car is only as dependable as the maintainance and tuning it receives.. PERIOD...
Good luck with your decision..
Both my sons DAILY drive their FD's with NO issues. My oldest has driven his everyday for the past 3 yrs and my other son has daily driven his everyday for the past yr. I daily drove mine for the first 8 months of ownership and put over 10K miles on her before I decided to get a DD because of the gas mileage.
At first I did not enjoy my FD as much a my FB but after driving my FD the way Mazda intended I can honestly say I enjoy it more than any FB that I have owned..The handling and brakes are 100% better than the 1st gen..
Also, I will tell you the same thing I tell everyone else that ask me about the FD's reliability....
ANY car is only as dependable as the maintainance and tuning it receives.. PERIOD...
Good luck with your decision..
06-14-12 | 10:09 PM
#32
Don't include the s2000 in that list. Honda did well with that car. It's made car of the year, 240hp out of an NA 2.2l, forged internals out the box, awesome handling, and decent gas mileage! Not to mention they're about as much as a GOOD STOCK FD. If I didn't buy an FD I would have nabbed me an s2k in a second.
Most facts have been stated in this thread. Keep up with maintenance and understand your car. If you're the kind of guy who doesn't know what knock is or doesn't understand that when you hit the gas and it shudders and sputters and shakes then you don't just go into boost to see if it's still ok. I don't know why people always think that's alright. I are all the time on this forum kids saying, "my rx7 is hesitating and sputtering and running like garbage, but I went into full boost in third and it boosts fine! But when I took it home now my vacuum is all jumpy help!" Do your research. I researched FDs for 3 years before getting mine and I love it
Most facts have been stated in this thread. Keep up with maintenance and understand your car. If you're the kind of guy who doesn't know what knock is or doesn't understand that when you hit the gas and it shudders and sputters and shakes then you don't just go into boost to see if it's still ok. I don't know why people always think that's alright. I are all the time on this forum kids saying, "my rx7 is hesitating and sputtering and running like garbage, but I went into full boost in third and it boosts fine! But when I took it home now my vacuum is all jumpy help!" Do your research. I researched FDs for 3 years before getting mine and I love it
06-14-12 | 10:37 PM
#33
I really like the S2k. But Honda has something against turbocharged engines and it's really annoying. 240hp FLYWHEEL is about 200whp, and you have to wring the **** out of it to get it go because of the complete lack of torque. Honestly, it does a 1/4 in about the same time as a newer SUV. A stock FD can easily make 80whp from simple bolt-ons, not so much with an S2k. If I had to get rid of my FD I would likely get an S2k. Great engines, very affordable, and they can make awesome power with a turbo. My gripe is with Honda's platform, and their inability to make a powerful car out of the box. The NSX is just a joke.....
The rx8 with the newer NA rotary makes slightly less power than the s2k. And is slower in a straight line than an s2k as well.
Rotary engines have no low end torque whatsoever. It needed the seq twin Turbo to aid that. Remove it (ie; renesis), and you have a torqueless wonder. Same thing with the s2k.
Only difference is now the s2k has better aftermarket support with better responding mods vs a renesis. And it will get better MPG.
06-15-12 | 08:30 AM
#36
The fd makes more power cause its FI. Remove the twin Turbo and it will make less power than the s2k.
The rx8 with the newer NA rotary makes slightly less power than the s2k. And is slower in a straight line than an s2k as well.
Rotary engines have no low end torque whatsoever. It needed the seq twin Turbo to aid that. Remove it (ie; renesis), and you have a torqueless wonder. Same thing with the s2k.
Only difference is now the s2k has better aftermarket support with better responding mods vs a renesis. And it will get better MPG.
The rx8 with the newer NA rotary makes slightly less power than the s2k. And is slower in a straight line than an s2k as well.
Rotary engines have no low end torque whatsoever. It needed the seq twin Turbo to aid that. Remove it (ie; renesis), and you have a torqueless wonder. Same thing with the s2k.
Only difference is now the s2k has better aftermarket support with better responding mods vs a renesis. And it will get better MPG.
Rotary engines DO have torque, it's called a turbo. But I will agree it isn't very low
I'm not defending the rotary, definitely not defending the underpowered pig that is the Rx8. All I am saying is HONDA, makes awesome cars that are UNDER POWERED from the factory. They obviously specialize in high compression NA engines. But unless it's a V10, it isn't going to cut it.
06-15-12 | 12:11 PM
#37
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Ok 3rd gen guys, a question.
I'm a long time first gen rx7 owner. Bought my first GSL-SE in 1997 and daily drove it for years. Followed it up with a second 1980 FB with a weber'd streetported firebreather motor (mazspeed's old car). I tracked that car for years (Sear's Point, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill) and it kicked *** and never failed. After selling my FB's I moved to miatas. Now my daily is an 05 STI, and I just sold off my latest toy (Lotus elise) I always had a soft spot for FD's but never had a chance to own one. Now I have the chance.
I am currently looking at a single owner 1993 FD with only 28k miles. It was driven stock until 2005 when it's owner began to carefully modify it for track duty. The owner is an engineer, and the car is pristine. It was garaged it's whole life and looks new.
It currently has the original stock engine with the following mods:
Knightsports v-mount IC + radiator
Kightsports intake + AST
efini Y-pipe
BNR stage 3 twin turbos
SMB downpipe.
Running on stock computer but it comes with a Power FC (uninstalled and untuned)
It also has tein flex coilovers, and a stoptech big brake kit.
Most of these mods are fairly new and recent.My use for the car would be as a street toy and track toy. As you all know the reliability issue is a big one on FD's. I've read so many reliability threads here it's made my head spin. So my plan if I buy it would be to install the Power FC, get it tuned conservatively for the mods and leave it alone. I would add water or water/meth injection for a bit of a safety margin.
The main worry I have is this: As great as these cars are, they seem to be getting more and more rare, parts are drying up and places to have them serviced & tuned are disappearing.
I love rotaries but I'm also cross shopping early NSX's (more reliable but more expensive).
What would you guys do?
I'm a long time first gen rx7 owner. Bought my first GSL-SE in 1997 and daily drove it for years. Followed it up with a second 1980 FB with a weber'd streetported firebreather motor (mazspeed's old car). I tracked that car for years (Sear's Point, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill) and it kicked *** and never failed. After selling my FB's I moved to miatas. Now my daily is an 05 STI, and I just sold off my latest toy (Lotus elise) I always had a soft spot for FD's but never had a chance to own one. Now I have the chance.
I am currently looking at a single owner 1993 FD with only 28k miles. It was driven stock until 2005 when it's owner began to carefully modify it for track duty. The owner is an engineer, and the car is pristine. It was garaged it's whole life and looks new.
It currently has the original stock engine with the following mods:
Knightsports v-mount IC + radiator
Kightsports intake + AST
efini Y-pipe
BNR stage 3 twin turbos
SMB downpipe.
Running on stock computer but it comes with a Power FC (uninstalled and untuned)
It also has tein flex coilovers, and a stoptech big brake kit.
Most of these mods are fairly new and recent.My use for the car would be as a street toy and track toy. As you all know the reliability issue is a big one on FD's. I've read so many reliability threads here it's made my head spin. So my plan if I buy it would be to install the Power FC, get it tuned conservatively for the mods and leave it alone. I would add water or water/meth injection for a bit of a safety margin.
The main worry I have is this: As great as these cars are, they seem to be getting more and more rare, parts are drying up and places to have them serviced & tuned are disappearing.
I love rotaries but I'm also cross shopping early NSX's (more reliable but more expensive).
What would you guys do?
the FD was never common in the first place, and 20 years on parts are still easy, although the common wear parts just need to be bought new.
06-16-12 | 05:47 PM
#39
Obviously if you remove an FD's turbo system, it is worthless. This doesn't negate the fact that it WAS designed to be a forced induction system and it DID come that way from the factory. I will also leave out the fact that the S2k was designed 10 YEARS after the FD. Honda obviously took advantage of this technology, but they didn't do it where it counts.
Rotary engines DO have torque, it's called a turbo. But I will agree it isn't very low
I'm not defending the rotary, definitely not defending the underpowered pig that is the Rx8. All I am saying is HONDA, makes awesome cars that are UNDER POWERED from the factory. They obviously specialize in high compression NA engines. But unless it's a V10, it isn't going to cut it.
Rotary engines DO have torque, it's called a turbo. But I will agree it isn't very low
I'm not defending the rotary, definitely not defending the underpowered pig that is the Rx8. All I am saying is HONDA, makes awesome cars that are UNDER POWERED from the factory. They obviously specialize in high compression NA engines. But unless it's a V10, it isn't going to cut it.
Honda engines are designed the way they are to be streetable/get good gas mileage at low end vs their top end which makes all the power.
S2k weighs in at ~2800lbs with 200whp priced similarly to a Miata (2100 @~120whp) I really dont see you're points in Honda messing up on the s2k. They made it to be a mid-priced roadster that has decent pickup and fun to drive. Not everyone can own a FI sports car due to the maintenance and up front cost. S2k was (IMO) the right choice for Honda out of box.
And I'll agree with 1qwik7. Comparing the gains from bolts on a FI car to N/A car is not even close to being the same. Sure the 7 was designed that way, it also has 3x the price tag from factory then the s2k after adjusted for inflation. So whats the point? And drag times? come on, most of us didn't choose a fd for the drag times either...
Anyways back on subject. I personally haven't ever found a NSX owner that I've liked as a person. They've always been totally ****** to me since they own an "exotic" and I own a "rice-burner" and ask "so what is that, the 6th or 7th motor?" or "got apex seals?" I mean you get that with everyone but idk, the NSX guys just have rubbed me the wrong way.
Also another thought about parts. The fd3s chassis was made all the way til 2002 in japan with close to 70,000 produced and still being used heavily in the private sector for TA, drift, etc over there. Not to mention you're comparing parts availability to an almost equally rare early 90's sports car.
06-16-12 | 09:23 PM
#40
Obviously if you remove an FD's turbo system, it is worthless. This doesn't negate the fact that it WAS designed to be a forced induction system and it DID come that way from the factory. I will also leave out the fact that the S2k was designed 10 YEARS after the FD. Honda obviously took advantage of this technology, but they didn't do it where it counts.
Rotary engines DO have torque, it's called a turbo. But I will agree it isn't very low
I'm not defending the rotary, definitely not defending the underpowered pig that is the Rx8. All I am saying is HONDA, makes awesome cars that are UNDER POWERED from the factory. They obviously specialize in high compression NA engines. But unless it's a V10, it isn't going to cut it.
Rotary engines DO have torque, it's called a turbo. But I will agree it isn't very low
I'm not defending the rotary, definitely not defending the underpowered pig that is the Rx8. All I am saying is HONDA, makes awesome cars that are UNDER POWERED from the factory. They obviously specialize in high compression NA engines. But unless it's a V10, it isn't going to cut it.
Ok ill compare, the FD has 255hp stock and the s2k has 250hp stock lol. The FD is FI.
Thats why i stated the rx8, because thats a more comparable car to the s2k, because they're both NA. An NA rotary, whether its a turboless REW or the renensis will get destroyed by the F20 or the F22.
Honda's intention was never to make gobbles of power, thats the whole idea to VTEC. Its main objective is fuel efficiency, and reliability. 2 things a rotary will never have. And especially NOT a turbo rotary, PERIOD. The renensis failed majorly at both categories, and thats NA too. Leave it to honda to produce small engines that can get great MPG, make good power and be reliable.
Rotary engines dont have torque. And slapping a turbo still wont give it to them. A rotary engine will never make low end torque. And strangely, you CAN modify an F20/22 to produce better low end torque. Thats where the beauty of piston engines still reign.
06-17-12 | 01:10 AM
#41
boost gauge + wideband should be your first mods , also since you have a power FC before you waste the money getting it tuned only to get it tuned again later , decide if you're going to free up the exhaust with a cat delete / catback . then tune
06-17-12 | 02:13 AM
#42
Obviously if you remove an FD's turbo system, it is worthless. This doesn't negate the fact that it WAS designed to be a forced induction system and it DID come that way from the factory. I will also leave out the fact that the S2k was designed 10 YEARS after the FD. Honda obviously took advantage of this technology, but they didn't do it where it counts.
Rotary engines DO have torque, it's called a turbo. But I will agree it isn't very low
I'm not defending the rotary, definitely not defending the underpowered pig that is the Rx8. All I am saying is HONDA, makes awesome cars that are UNDER POWERED from the factory. They obviously specialize in high compression NA engines. But unless it's a V10, it isn't going to cut it.
Rotary engines DO have torque, it's called a turbo. But I will agree it isn't very low
I'm not defending the rotary, definitely not defending the underpowered pig that is the Rx8. All I am saying is HONDA, makes awesome cars that are UNDER POWERED from the factory. They obviously specialize in high compression NA engines. But unless it's a V10, it isn't going to cut it.
06-17-12 | 12:06 PM
#44
06-17-12 | 12:52 PM
#45
An LS2 MAYBE but not the 3.
06-17-12 | 12:59 PM
#46
The car is legendary. I wouldn't personally buy one as a daily driver but the car is special and imo there will always be a community around it.
I prefer to think of the car in the same vein of 60's muscle cars. I think there will be strong demand for it 20 years from now because of guys like us who grew up drooling over 90's jap sports cars.
I prefer to think of the car in the same vein of 60's muscle cars. I think there will be strong demand for it 20 years from now because of guys like us who grew up drooling over 90's jap sports cars.
06-17-12 | 04:29 PM
#47
I sold my engine running and all the bolt ons from mount, power fc ect. ended up getting about 7k. I planned to go with the aspec 500r kit which meant, what about 4500? plus a fuel system to support 500hp(6-700 pistonhp) a clutch to hold it ect. There are cheaper turbo kits but this was my target power level. Anyways say just the turbo kit was the cost 4300 so add that to the 7k in rotary related parts a little over 11k(and this is not including anything else to support the single turbo kit)
ls3 costs:
ls swap main cost: samber mounting kit/intake/radiator: 3200
engine:4500
trans: 2300(new/built)
drive shaft: 400
ecu kit:900
exhaust:1300
There are other odds and end to both the single turbo and ls swap but I listed the main costly items of both. Also keep in mind I bought an ls3 not a more readily available and cheaper ls1 or 2.
-Chance
06-17-12 | 11:26 PM
#48
A ls swap is easily the same cost if not cheaper(as long as the owner is doing the labor).
I sold my engine running and all the bolt ons from mount, power fc ect. ended up getting about 7k. I planned to go with the aspec 500r kit which meant, what about 4500? plus a fuel system to support 500hp(6-700 pistonhp) a clutch to hold it ect. There are cheaper turbo kits but this was my target power level. Anyways say just the turbo kit was the cost 4300 so add that to the 7k in rotary related parts a little over 11k(and this is not including anything else to support the single turbo kit)
ls3 costs:
ls swap main cost: samber mounting kit/intake/radiator: 3200
engine:4500
trans: 2300(new/built)
drive shaft: 400
ecu kit:900
exhaust:1300
There are other odds and end to both the single turbo and ls swap but I listed the main costly items of both. Also keep in mind I bought an ls3 not a more readily available and cheaper ls1 or 2.
-Chance
I sold my engine running and all the bolt ons from mount, power fc ect. ended up getting about 7k. I planned to go with the aspec 500r kit which meant, what about 4500? plus a fuel system to support 500hp(6-700 pistonhp) a clutch to hold it ect. There are cheaper turbo kits but this was my target power level. Anyways say just the turbo kit was the cost 4300 so add that to the 7k in rotary related parts a little over 11k(and this is not including anything else to support the single turbo kit)
ls3 costs:
ls swap main cost: samber mounting kit/intake/radiator: 3200
engine:4500
trans: 2300(new/built)
drive shaft: 400
ecu kit:900
exhaust:1300
There are other odds and end to both the single turbo and ls swap but I listed the main costly items of both. Also keep in mind I bought an ls3 not a more readily available and cheaper ls1 or 2.
-Chance
06-17-12 | 11:54 PM
#49
You can't go and add the $7k on top of the turbo kit since the car came with all that. I pieced together my whole setup for like $7k, nowhere near that ~$12k you just posted for your LSx swap. And thats for a stock motor swapped in making nowhere near the power that the single turbo FD would've been making.
7k is about right, I looked and considered doing a single turbo but doing it right cost a lot. A/I, gauges, twin disc, ect. and then I would be worrying about pushing the rotary up to 500 hp. Which it can do and reliably but not as reliably as a larger displacement engine.
The fact is it will cost roughly the same as a single turbo kit if you are starting out with a running fd with some goodies on it to sell. As I proved with my swap
