3rd Generation Specific (1993-2002) 1993-2002 Discussion including performance modifications and Technical Support Sections.
Sponsored by:

Died in flight, now no start

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 06-18-24, 11:48 PM
  #1  
Junior Member

Thread Starter
 
Spinit2winit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Died in flight, now no start

I'm kind of fearing the worst here. The car is new to me, I'm the first owner in the US. Car is a 1996 jdm, completely stock aside from a catback.
I was doing some hard pulls with the car, maybe 0-70mph. Just little street pulls. I was on my 2nd pull and the car felt like it hit a wall. Was sputtering a bit and then shut off. It is now a crank no start. The car is new to me, but the cranking sounds different, less "even" maybe if that makes sense. I've come up with a game plan, but wanted to see if there is anything else I should check while I'm at it. I was going to try the deflood procedure, although it seems weird that it would flood during a hard acceleration. Pull my plugs (ngk) (they were just changed by my importer before I received the car). I've put maybe 250-300 miles on it. Then I was going to check fuel pressure, maybe pull the injectors.

The car did have a large vacuum leak that I didn't know about and I put maybe 50 miles on the car before I realized. The port on the intake where a boost gauge would connect was open. Someone took off their gauge and didn't plug it. The car is also not consuming oil. I've done two fuel fill ups (premixed) and the oil level has not decreased at all. I've read that people usually need to top off the oil every 3 fill ups. I feel like the motor may have taken a dump, but the car only had 30k miles. Anything else you'd recommend I'd check?
Old 06-19-24, 12:20 AM
  #2  
~17 MPG

iTrader: (2)
 
scotty305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 3,318
Received 240 Likes on 159 Posts
Check all of the fuses in the engine bay and in the cabin. I'm not familiar with JDM cars, but in the US cars there is a fuse panel near the clutch pedal. On a JDM car this might be near where the passenger's left foot goes.

If you have a compression tester or can borrow one from a local auto parts store, do a compression test.

If not, remove a spark plug from one rotor and listen to hear if the pulses sound even or uneven. This video includes an example of how a bad engine sounds while cranking, the compression is uneven so the engine speed is uneven when the starter is spinning.


I would not pull the injectors, unless you've already got experience doing that on a rotary there are a lot of opportunities to cause new problems trying to get access to them. They are buried pretty deep compared to most other cars, especially on the FD with the sequential turbo solenoids and emissions solenoids and vacuum lines.
Old 06-19-24, 02:22 AM
  #3  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
Get a proper rotary compression tester. About US$300 on ebay. Piston engine compression testers are problematic in a number of ways. Avoid.

If you have stock JDM Ecu learn to run codes off the diagnostic plug*.

Do at least those two things before you go digging around in the engine bay and cause yourself all kinds of trouble.

( * JDM do not have a check engine light. Instead if the ecu senses trouble it throws itself into "Limp Mode", which means it purposely makes the car run bad. When this happens, in Japan, you are told, by the owners' manual, to take the car to the dealer. The dealer had a specialised diagnostic tool. You will not find this in North America. But you can run codes of the dianostic plug, as I said above, very simply.)

If you have a 1996 car, the location of the coils was changed. Unfortunately, people that are not aware of this may hook up the coil harness and/or the spark plugs leads incorrectly, resulting in the plugs firing into the wrong phase. The problem may not show up at low revs, but at, say 6000 rpm, the engine can not overcome the out of phase firing and detonation occurs. You will hear very loud bangs, and if this happens a few times, you will likely blow out an apex seal or a corner seal . The compression test will quickly show you if this has happened.

If that has happened avoid running the engine. If you have blown out seals, they will chew up your internals, perhaps rendering the rotor and housing surfaces non-reusable. worse yet, bits can get into your turbo impellers and chew them up as well.

The compression test and code reading will not tell you if you have vacuum leaks. You want to inspect all the vacuum hoses. Start with the ones you can easily see (the big vacuum hose to the power brake assist, for instance). Otherwise, you need to take off the UIM (upper intake manifold) and look under it. But do your codes and compression test first. Pulling the UIM and rooting around amongst the vacuum hose system can cause new issues. Fortunately, you should have a solenoid box rather than a "rat's nest", which makes looking at the vacuum system more simple. On the other hand, if the codes show that one, or more, of the seven solenoids in the box are not functioning, you'd probably best to replace the whole unit (maybe US$550). [You should plan for that anyway.]



The following users liked this post:
Sgtblue (06-21-24)
Old 06-19-24, 02:32 AM
  #4  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
BC

"they were just changed by my importer". This comment scares me. As mentioned above, your importer may have hooked up the plugs wrong.
Old 06-19-24, 10:05 AM
  #5  
Junior Member

Thread Starter
 
Spinit2winit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by scotty305
Check all of the fuses in the engine bay and in the cabin. I'm not familiar with JDM cars, but in the US cars there is a fuse panel near the clutch pedal. On a JDM car this might be near where the passenger's left foot goes.

If you have a compression tester or can borrow one from a local auto parts store, do a compression test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXZU7KKW6nc

If not, remove a spark plug from one rotor and listen to hear if the pulses sound even or uneven. This video includes an example of how a bad engine sounds while cranking, the compression is uneven so the engine speed is uneven when the starter is spinning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8eiN2G9xvc


I would not pull the injectors, unless you've already got experience doing that on a rotary there are a lot of opportunities to cause new problems trying to get access to them. They are buried pretty deep compared to most other cars, especially on the FD with the sequential turbo solenoids and emissions solenoids and vacuum lines.
good call. I will wait to get too intrusive until I really have a no other choices. At that point the motor will be coming out anyway. All my rotary experience is with carbs on the 12a. Those had a rats nest, but it isn't nearly as bad as what I've seen on the fd in pictures
Old 06-19-24, 10:13 AM
  #6  
Junior Member

Thread Starter
 
Spinit2winit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Redbul
Get a proper rotary compression tester. About US$300 on ebay. Piston engine compression testers are problematic in a number of ways. Avoid.

If you have stock JDM Ecu learn to run codes off the diagnostic plug*.

Do at least those two things before you go digging around in the engine bay and cause yourself all kinds of trouble.

( * JDM do not have a check engine light. Instead if the ecu senses trouble it throws itself into "Limp Mode", which means it purposely makes the car run bad. When this happens, in Japan, you are told, by the owners' manual, to take the car to the dealer. The dealer had a specialised diagnostic tool. You will not find this in North America. But you can run codes of the dianostic plug, as I said above, very simply.)

If you have a 1996 car, the location of the coils was changed. Unfortunately, people that are not aware of this may hook up the coil harness and/or the spark plugs leads incorrectly, resulting in the plugs firing into the wrong phase. The problem may not show up at low revs, but at, say 6000 rpm, the engine can not overcome the out of phase firing and detonation occurs. You will hear very loud bangs, and if this happens a few times, you will likely blow out an apex seal or a corner seal . The compression test will quickly show you if this has happened.

If that has happened avoid running the engine. If you have blown out seals, they will chew up your internals, perhaps rendering the rotor and housing surfaces non-reusable. worse yet, bits can get into your turbo impellers and chew them up as well.

The compression test and code reading will not tell you if you have vacuum leaks. You want to inspect all the vacuum hoses. Start with the ones you can easily see (the big vacuum hose to the power brake assist, for instance). Otherwise, you need to take off the UIM (upper intake manifold) and look under it. But do your codes and compression test first. Pulling the UIM and rooting around amongst the vacuum hose system can cause new issues. Fortunately, you should have a solenoid box rather than a "rat's nest", which makes looking at the vacuum system more simple. On the other hand, if the codes show that one, or more, of the seven solenoids in the box are not functioning, you'd probably best to replace the whole unit (maybe US$550). [You should plan for that anyway.]
So for them to hook up the coils incorrectly they would have had to remove the wires from the coil correct? When I looked at it this morning it seemed pretty hard to screw up as the lengths of the plug wires really only reached their respected plug. That was just a quick look though.

I'll have to do more research, but i was under the impression that the solenoid boxes didn’t happen until 99 and my engine should be nearly identical to a 95. I read that briefly, so i haven't actually looked yet. Yeah there was a few red flags. He also said "i put a fresh ac charge in it" which is not something you want to hear, but oddly enough it's held a charge despite the condenser having a pretty nice bend to it.

I'll check all the vacuum lines, plugs, etc. I wanted to wait to build it, but **** happens. I was planning on enjoying it at least the rest of the year. I just put some LMs and sticky tires on it. Going to order a compression tester today. Figured it would be nice to have around anyway
Old 06-19-24, 11:39 AM
  #7  
Don't worry be happy...

iTrader: (1)
 
Montego's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,864
Received 804 Likes on 474 Posts
Usually blown rotaries do start and run. That's the beauty of these things, you can blow your engine on a track day and still be able to drive home. As an example, a long time ago my wastegate line came off and I over boosted to 23 psi. Yeah 23... and I was tuned for 12.... The car still started and ran. Ran like absolute **** but ran and according to my mechanic I blew 4 out of 6 apex seals on that sucker.

So hold a bit on spending money on a compression tester. You need three things to start an engine, spark, fuel, and oxygen. Oxygen is a given so no need to check for that, so check that both spark and fuel are being delivered. Obviously, if you find that you are missing one of the two then work your way back to find the problem.

Once you have determined that you do indeed have all three things and yet the car doesn't start then engine compression comes into question. Even still unless you are rebuilding the engine yourself what's the point in spending $300 dollars? Since the car doesn't start, no mechanic worth their salt is going take your word that the engine is blown so they will do their own compression test themselves to figure out the problem.

Originally Posted by Spinit2winit
The port on the intake where a boost gauge would connect was open. Someone took off their gauge and didn't plug it.
As an FYi- never WOT a turbo rotary that has any mods unless you absolutely know you are boosting stock levels or know the car is tuned. These cars absolutely hate lean conditions and they will cost you an engine because of it.

Originally Posted by Spinit2winit
I feel like the motor may have taken a dump, but the car only had 30k miles.
The car could have had 2k miles, when it comes to going lean mileage doesn't matter.

​​​​​​In any case, good luck and I hope the problem isn't very expensive.

Last edited by Montego; 06-19-24 at 12:07 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Sgtblue (06-21-24)
Old 06-19-24, 12:13 PM
  #8  
Junior Member

Thread Starter
 
Spinit2winit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Montego
Usually blown rotaries do start and run. That's the beauty of these things, you can blow your engine on a track day and still be able to drive home. As an example, a long time ago my wastegate line came off and I over boosted to 23 psi. Yeah 23... and I was tuned for 12.... The car still started and ran. Ran like absolute **** but ran and according to my mechanic I blew 4 out of 6 apex seals on that sucker.

So hold a bit on spending money on a compression tester. You need three things to start an engine, spark, fuel, and oxygen. Oxygen is a given so no need to check for that, so check that both spark and fuel are being delivered. Obviously, if you find that you are missing one of the two then work your way back to find the problem.

Once you have determined that you do indeed have all three things and yet the car doesn't start then engine compression comes into question. Even still unless you are rebuilding the engine yourself what's the point in spending $300 dollars? Since the car doesn't start, no mechanic worth their salt is going take your word that the engine is blown so they will do their own compression test themselves to figure out the problem.

As an FYi- never WOT a turbo rotary that has any mods unless you absolutely know you are boosting stock levels or know the car is tuned. These cars absolutely hate lean conditions and they will cost you an engine because of it. The car could have had 2k miles, when it comes to going lean mileage doesn't matter.
Definitely going to check the basics first. I have a fuel pressure gauge, but haven't yet researched the best place to hook it up. Also I'd assume I'd need to verify fuel is getting to the housing. Is there a good way to do that?

i definitely heard of bad things happening with wide open throttle and mods. I had planned on going standalone before doing any real mods. I figured I'd be safe since all it has is a cat back. I was actually already in touch with a tuner that was going to tune for me and was going to get an intercooler, high flow cat, ordered. I'm hoping I didn't hurt it, I've blown up motors in my first gens and they always ran, but none of them made that much power.

I don't plan on rebuilding the motor myself, but I do plan on pulling it out myself. I'm a mechanic by trade so i feel confident i can rip it out, but would prefer to have some experienced do the building and porting.
Old 06-19-24, 01:07 PM
  #9  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
The costs of new rotors and housings has gone up considerably. That is why I am saying you'd want to avoid damaging what you have left. Driving home with 4 or 6 apex seals rattling around in your engine assumes you can swap in a new motor overnight for $3500. Today, it is more like $15,000 and a six month wait.

(I exaggerate - but only by a bit - actual experience may vary.)

Last edited by Redbul; 06-19-24 at 01:23 PM.
Old 06-19-24, 01:16 PM
  #10  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
"Rat boxes' were introduced in late 1995 for the 1996 model year and switched to 16 bit ecu. We just switched one out in my friends 1996 RZ.

With the build you are contemplating likely the rat box or rat nest will be coming out and an aftermarket ecu will be employed.

A/C will lose their charge. We ran "stop leak" and "Seal rejuvenator" additives through mine and it held charge for the summer.

Switching to an aftermarket ecu may cause issues for the A/C. With the Power FC we had to bypass the ecu to get the compressor to respond.

(With this you lose some of the logic the ecu employs to protect the compressor.)

Last edited by Redbul; 06-19-24 at 01:22 PM.
Old 06-19-24, 01:57 PM
  #11  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-gen-gene...002-a-1127911/


Password is embedded in file name.
Old 06-19-24, 02:50 PM
  #12  
Don't worry be happy...

iTrader: (1)
 
Montego's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,864
Received 804 Likes on 474 Posts
Originally Posted by Redbul
Driving home with 4 or 6 apex seals rattling around in your engine assumes you can swap in a new motor overnight for $3500. Today, it is more like $15,000 and a six month wait.
I think you missed the point of my comment. It wasn't about driving around with a blown motor, it was about holding hope that his issue is not the engine.

Last edited by Montego; 06-19-24 at 03:32 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Redbul (06-19-24)
Old 06-19-24, 04:32 PM
  #13  
Don't worry be happy...

iTrader: (1)
 
Montego's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,864
Received 804 Likes on 474 Posts
Originally Posted by Spinit2winit
Definitely going to check the basics first. I have a fuel pressure gauge, but haven't yet researched the best place to hook it up. Also I'd assume I'd need to verify fuel is getting to the housing. Is there a good way to do that.
​​​​​​Since your car doesn't start and how you described how it all went down, I would check for spark as others suggested it could be your coils.

For fuel purposes, I would not bother with the gauge just yet (again since the car doesn't start). I'd look to see if the fuel pump turns on first. If it does then I'd try to to crank the engine several times then remove a spark plug and check to see if it's wet. If it's wet then you know fuel is going where it is supposed to go. If not then then you move to the next step, where you truly rule out the fuel pump.
The following users liked this post:
Sgtblue (06-21-24)
Old 06-19-24, 07:46 PM
  #14  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
Be very gentl pulling vacuum hoses of nipples. Break one nipple off on the rat box and you are looking for a new rat box.
Old 06-19-24, 09:24 PM
  #15  
Junior Member

Thread Starter
 
Spinit2winit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Redbul
"Rat boxes' were introduced in late 1995 for the 1996 model year and switched to 16 bit ecu. We just switched one out in my friends 1996 RZ.

With the build you are contemplating likely the rat box or rat nest will be coming out and an aftermarket ecu will be employed.

A/C will lose their charge. We ran "stop leak" and "Seal rejuvenator" additives through mine and it held charge for the summer.

Switching to an aftermarket ecu may cause issues for the A/C. With the Power FC we had to bypass the ecu to get the compressor to respond.

(With this you lose some of the logic the ecu employs to protect the compressor.)
I've definitely stressed with my tuner the importance of retaining my factory ac it gets hot here.

Ac systems should not lose a charge, unless it is leaking out of something. Which you very likely could fix with stop leak, id rather not as ive seen many times the damages it does to evaporator cores, and accumulators.

That's excellent news about the box! I was reading a post on here where people were saying their 96 still had a rats nest. I've heard it still sucks, but it is a bit better. I'll take that.

As far as the price of the rebuild. Ive started pricing stuff out, just in case, but my philosophy is "it is what it is". I want the car running, and i didn't buy a car notorious for it's reliability. Once it fell on it's face i went to pull over, but it had already died anyway. Going to be playing in the garage tonight, hopefully get some answers. I ordered a compression tester anyway. Figured it would be nice to have (see: tool addiction)
Old 06-19-24, 09:25 PM
  #16  
Junior Member

Thread Starter
 
Spinit2winit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Redbul
THANK YOU. Goint to print that out tomorrow!
The following users liked this post:
Redbul (06-20-24)
Old 06-20-24, 01:58 AM
  #17  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
Its 4000 pages. Best to be selective.

Old 06-20-24, 02:00 AM
  #18  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...glish-1157199/
Old 06-20-24, 02:16 PM
  #19  
Junior Member

Thread Starter
 
Spinit2winit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
I was looking at the plugs and I'm assuming the wrong coil wires would be the front and rear rotor swapped at the bottom? What's the best way to tell that mine are on correct?
also I verified last night that my pump was engaging and load tested the wires to the pump just to be safe.
Old 06-20-24, 11:52 PM
  #20  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
Here is some clues.

You want to look up the updated wiring diagrams for the Version 4 cars.

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...1157199/page5/

@Akagi'sWhiteComet

Akagi: Buddy needs the Version 4 wiring diagrams. Have you done the translation yet?
Old 06-21-24, 02:50 PM
  #21  
~17 MPG

iTrader: (2)
 
scotty305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 3,318
Received 240 Likes on 159 Posts
Originally Posted by Spinit2winit
I was looking at the plugs and I'm assuming the wrong coil wires would be the front and rear rotor swapped at the bottom? What's the best way to tell that mine are on correct?
also I verified last night that my pump was engaging and load tested the wires to the pump just to be safe.
On the engine, the lower spark plugs are the leading spark plugs. Lower = Leading. The factory ignition setup uses a wasted-spark setup for the leading spark plugs, they both fire at the same time so it doesn't matter if those two wires are swapped from front to rear.

The top spark plugs are the trailing spark plugs. Top = Trailing. These ones have their own individual ignition coil, they do NOT fire at the same time and it would be dangerous to swap their spark plug wires from front to rear. The trailing coils on newer JDM engines with the 'black box' rats nest are located differently than on the older 1992-1995 engines we got in the US, so it would be wise to check with a timing light to make sure your front leading spark is happening at the right angle. If you have a timing light and a running engine, you can check timing of the front trailing spark plug to see that it is correct. The procedure is in the USDM service manual, and should be the same for JDM cars. Swapping the spark plug wires is not likely to prevent the engine from starting, from what I've heard it's one of those things that can be wrong and the engine will run well enough at light load that most people won't notice it, but getting trailing spark plug wires wrong can hurt the engine at full throttle.
Old 06-21-24, 09:44 PM
  #22  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
The fact that the leading coils fire together all the time is a bit hard to get your head around. Hooked up correctly, each "charge" gets two sparks, thereby burning off any combusted fuel in that charge. If a spark intended for a leading plug goes to a trailing plug, the additional spark may ignite the charge just as it starts to get compressed. The engine does not like this very much.

Mazda uses three diagrams to demonstrate the combustion cycle in the housing. But they actually should show four. The fourth showing where and when the "waste" spark goes off in the cycle.
Old 06-24-24, 09:39 PM
  #23  
Junior Member

Thread Starter
 
Spinit2winit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Whelp, here is my unfortunate update. Spent some time with the car this weekend. Verified pump was coming on and fuel was making it to the rail, verified spark to plugs. Purchased a compression tester and while cold (car doesn't run) the front rotor reads 84 72 76 after correction. The rear rotor will not complete the test. It doesn't read that it's cranking. I swapped the sensor back into the front rotor and verified it reads on that housing. I'm assuming the rear housing is completely trashed.
Should have had a PPI done on the car, but what can you do? Live and learn
Old 06-25-24, 12:19 AM
  #24  
~17 MPG

iTrader: (2)
 
scotty305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 3,318
Received 240 Likes on 159 Posts
Sorry to hear it, but there's no way to guarantee this was caused by the previous owners or would have been caught in a prepurchase inspection. The fuel systems on these cars didn't have much headroom, and the ECU control strategy won't handle overboost situations well, and the engine itself doesn't tolerate overheating or running lean very well. IMHO, the best way to move forward is to avoid scope creep and don't try to add a ton of modifications to complicate the process of getting the car running. I would add a wideband gauge, coolant temperature gauge, replace the OMP lines, coolant lines, fuel lines and radiator, but aside from that I would try to keep it simple and get back to a fun stock-ish RX7 baseline again.
The following users liked this post:
Jesturr (06-25-24)
Old 06-25-24, 12:47 AM
  #25  
Lives on the Forum

iTrader: (26)
 
Redbul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: B.C.
Posts: 5,222
Received 1,254 Likes on 973 Posts
Throw in a Spirit R 1:4.3 rear ring and pinion for the illusion of more horsepower (coupled with lightweight flywheel).


Quick Reply: Died in flight, now no start



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:22 PM.