Anthony Rodrigues

Refa,
As you have noticed you can fit a LS1 into an FD but I would like to know what you consider to be cheap for an engine that would really make 800hp or what would be cheap about a transmission or rear end that would hold this. In Australia anymore than about 600hp and the rear endbecomes temporary and definitely not cheap. I must say it would become one fine piece of machinery but I dont think that the word cheap would be in its port folio. Good luck with your project, whatever direction you choose.
-Anthony

AJatx

iTrader: (1)

Anthony brings up a great point about high horsepower vehicles. You end up breaking the diffy or axles pretty quick unless you upgrade those parts. Even after upgrades, with a lot of torque, you can still break those parts.

You may also need to re-inforce the chassis under that much power.

J

jimlab

For you, perhaps. Don't make the mistake of assuming that your beliefs are the same as those of others.

Thanks for pointing that out, care to share your calculations with the rest of us?

50/50 weight balance isn't absolutely necessary for a competitive car. Many performance cars aren't 50/50 balanced. The McLaren F1 isn't 50/50 balanced, for example. Want to argue about its track performance?

50/50 static weight balance means very little, really. You can even corner balance a car with an adjustable suspension to achieve perfect static 50/50 balance, if the numbers are pretty close. Weight balance changes when the car is in motion. The 50/50 static balance can be upset as easily as installing a set of imbalanced springs, or a stiffer sway bar in the front (or rear) without balancing it at the opposite end, or changing the tire widths.

Most of you don't know what you're doing to the handling of the car by swapping suspension components in the same manner that you have no idea what you're doing to the aerodynamics of the car by bolting on a C-West nose. And if you've put P275s on the back of the car and put 245s in the front, for example, you've already changed the handling characteristics without going near a V8.

It's funny that most of the people touting 50/50 balance just as regularly screw it up with something they've changed on the car, and furthermore, wouldn't be able to tell the difference if it was 50/50 balanced anyway.

What 50/50 balance really means is only that the car should (key word, should) corner neutrally. Nothing more. It doesn't make a car any more competitive, or mean that one that isn't balanced 50/50 while sitting on a set of scales will perform any worse. It's simply something to strive for, with a particular design, and something most people just read in a brochure, or saw quoted ad infinitum by others and assumed was a "good" thing. It can be a good thing. However, less than perfect weight balance isn't necessarily a "bad" thing.

Before you start tossing around assumptions about weight balance and handling, learn more about what you're talking about.

Which weighs about 600 lbs. more, doesn't have the suspension advancements that the RX-7 does, and isn't nearly as pretty. Some people already have an RX-7 and don't have the option of getting rid of it, especially with a blown engine, for something else. Most tend to work with what they already have. Especially if they like the car but don't like replacing the engines like wiper blades...

jimlab

More than likely, those claiming this broke something when launching the car on slicks at high rpm. On the street, the tires are the weak link and will spin long before you break an axle or the "diffy".

In reality, with more torque, you don't have to launch from 5,000+ rpm. My ideal launch rpm is 1,300, according to Car Test 2000. That's what happens when you have 400+ ft. lbs. at 2,000 rpm.

As i mentioned in the thread that was posted above, flat floor panned '60s muscle cars with no sub-frame connectors have problems with torque twisting and bending the cars, almost exclusively when launching on slicks. An RX-7, with a triangulated rear subframe, extremely rigid and short floor pan with many reinforcement points is not going to have the same problems. I've done the calculations and especially with the addition of my 5 pt. roll bar, the torque isn't going to be a problem that the FD chassis can't handle.

The cars with problems are also solid axle cars, where the rear suspension can't articulate under power. I've never seen an IRS car pull the front tires off the ground, and that should tell you something. The suspension will move to accomodate the power far more effectively than in a live axle car, and will plant the power more effectively. In the event that the power is excessive, the tires will spin long before the front of the car comes off the ground.

nathandominguez

I personally own a 96' modified cobra and 93 rx7tt and they are different cars all together. V8's are great but the way they respond, drive, sound pails in comparison to the feeling that a turbo 7 gives. first go drive a v8 before you put one in your 7.

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

In reality, with more torque, you don't have to launch from 5,000+ rpm. My ideal launch rpm is 1,300, according to Car Test 2000. That's what happens when you have 400+ ft. lbs. at 2,000 rpm.

I have to agree with Jim. Even though he does not have his car done yet he has done tons of research and is right on. I can give you a real world example. My nephew has a 375hp 350+ci Chev V8 in an FC. With it's torque he can launch at low rpms and get 1.6-1.7 60' times with no effort whatsoever. He has yet to have a car beat him for the first 60'. He has Toyo tires and if he wants to do burn outs he can, nothing breaks the tires just spin. That tranny of his is amazing compared to my FD 5-sp.

This is his car:
http://www.v8rx7.com/tom.htm

Sometimes I wished I would have went that route. If my single turbo conversion is reliable I'll be happy, but will it be????

With the $$ I spent on this I probably could of had a V8.

mods: Street port and polished stage II,
upgraded coolant seals,
Hurley 3mm racing apex seals,
XS T04E Turbo,
PFS PMC,
1200cc injectors,
RP Racing fuel pump,
Aquamist 2s water injection kit,
GReddy SMIC,
Pettit ss resonated MP,
Pettit ss cat-back,
under pulley kit(no air pump),
Profec B(12-15psi),

Ken

maxpesce

Jim is keeping the weight at 50/50 by spending lots and lots of $$$$ to keep his V-8 light, Read his post in this thread a stock LT-1w/ full emmisions adds aty least 100lbs to the front end.

jimlab

My daily driver is a '02 Z06... any other suggestions?

jimlab

Well, not entirely true...

An LT1 with full accessories and emissions might add about 80-90 lbs. to the front end, but I don't have full accessories (alternator only), and definitely won't have emissions components, or the stock cast iron exhaust manifolds. That's a 30 lbs. savings right there. The ever-popular 20B is even heavier, by the way, and carries that weight farther forward in the car. Mine was 561 lbs. on its pallet, with accessories and stock exhaust manifolds and turbos.

I didn't feel like I had to spend a dime to make the engine any lighter, because I had already eliminated a great deal of weight by removing "unnecessary" parts. No power steering, no air conditioning (never worked that well anyway, and not really necessary for Washington state), no intercooler out front (obviously), about 20-25 lbs. in wiring and relays, no pop-up headlamp motors, 2.5 lbs. out of the front bumper support, no air bags or sensors... it all adds up.

What I did spend my $$$$ on was where it would count the most... eliminating weight in the rotating assembly and valvetrain. A 38 lb. billet crankshaft compared to a 55 lb. forged crank. 505 gram connecting rods, 405 gram pistons, you get the idea. Titanium valves, titanium retainers, titanium locks, shaft mount rocker arms, and so on. The weight savings is a fringe benefit. The real benefit is that my engine will rev faster than any engine that displaces 396 cubic inches has any business revving.

Besides, you can always make more horsepower to make up for a little extra weight.

jimlab

That's funny, coming from someone who has never owned an FD and bases all his knowledge of them on what he's read on the forum... you'd think someone that interested in learning facts would be able to retain something so simple.

At least remember that it was an LT1 the next time you tell the story... is that too much to ask? A 305-320 hp LS1 in the same car would have run a high 12 the first time at the track, more than likely.

redrotorR1

if you can get it cheap, refa, i vote for the LS6 ... highly unlikely, but maybe there's an idiot out there who's wrecked his brand new Z06 ...

LS6 ... ummm, yummy.

and then MTI has some cool stuff ... headers and exhausts and ... i should shut up now.

jimlab

My point is, for someone who has never owned an FD, let alone drag raced one, you certainly seem to believe that you're an expert on the subject. I know that you're eager to discount the validity of a V8 swap into an FD, but let's just say that drag racing is outside your "area of expertise".

This is the third time you've posted that Bill "only" attained a 13.4 with his V8. On his first day at the track. Most bone stock FDs don't see 13s on any day at the track. I am fully aware that there are a couple (repeat, couple) of people who have done better than 13.4 with a stock FD, but they're rare and the results are definitely not typical. Bill's car is quite a bit quicker, even on his first day out, than the average stock FD, far more reliable, and still passes emissions. Not bad, no matter if you agree with the swap or not.

Give some credit where credit is due, and don't be so eager to slander someone else's project, especially when you don't have one of your own. It's very easy to pick on someone else's results when you have none of your own at risk and you're hiding behind a keyboard.

black99

Damn, Jim you hit the nail on the head. I was actually waiting to say this because this is one of my pet peeves about JoeD. Whenever someone has a question of the forum, a bodykit, wheels, etc question he's always one of the first to help out bitch about knockoffs, replicas, don't be cheap, etc. But he has never spent a dime for a FD and no money is coming out of his pocket so he can always suggest get the best of everything, and "knock offs suck", "your a loser if you buy a knockoff", etc. Other people have other things to spend money on than body kits. I don't care when RotaryKnight suggests the good stuff because he has bought and used the products and knows from experiance. So I would consider actually taking his advice.

You know more than the average FD owner but you don't know how to pull a UIM or fix a boost problem? So you know more about body kits than the rest of us or what?

And of course you knocking people for putting a V8 in their car and not realizing how benifical the V8 conversion is. He doesn't realize it again because he can blow all the "imaginary rotarys" he wants, and still a dime doesn't come out of his pocket. Have you ever tuned a American V8 JoeD? I forgot "the germans have the V8 market locked down" And "a car has to be more than fast to earn your respect" Have you ever sunk 7k or more in a year into a FD? Have you ever tuned a rotary motor? Do you know any other motors besides Honda VTEC engines with a JDM Type-R header and German motors out of the cars you can't afford? Didn't think so. You also comment on alot of questions where members are asking for "real world" experiance with stuff you have read and never dealt with.

potatobbq

Before I bought my car, I pretty much read through all the sites and searched on this forum for stuff but in all honestly, that didn't really help much when I went to do ACTUAL work on my own car. Reading about the car and working on the car are not the same thing... reading and regurgitating information about the car is THINKING you know and working on the car is actually knowing.

black99

Oh yeah and I am putting a all-aluminum 608 ci Pontiac motor, (that's right Pontiac!!) in my car using a IA block just to **** off all you guys who think "american V8's suck" .

macross11

sigh...

Anthony Rodrigues

Dont discount my thery on breakages because the original thread had reference to price and winning some money at the races. As a racer I can assure you that he would not get any of my money if he was relying on wheelspin to save breakages during a race with 800hp. The aim was only to help him with his project, not change it to a Burn out exhibition vehicle.
-Anthony.
P.s I must agree that the FD structurally is far superior to any of the early cars that these engine originated from. We needed a structural rigidity test done on an FD we had fitted with a 20B and were assured that we were well within any engineering requirements for the chasis.