Hey Stephen, I've been considering a single turbo but what you have sounds like a better bargain. Plus I can sneak by the smog police w/o a huge diesel turbos smack dab in the middle of the engine compartment.

Are these ball bearings in the stock housing?

I would like to see numbers for "both" sequential and non-sequential, please. :D

I don't get full boost untill 5500rpm in sequential on stock twins, so 4500rpms would be nice but at what rpm do they start? ...both setups?

Stephen,
What kind of intake temps are you seeing at 17psi?

ok... i'm ready for a set in about march, when the sun starts to come out a little more.... how do i buy them?? and price???? i thought it was about $2k right?? what else is recommended?? pfc? fmic? larger injectors?? fuel pump? etc etc.... thanks for all your help!

you will need the full list of mods...including a 3bar map sensor...ecu...1600 cc inj and rail...boost controller...and plenty of other goodies.

you will need my mod list...but a better pump and the larger injectors and ignition

j

How would these run with a stock car? Would they not run well at 10 psi?

BATMAN who runs the BNR carbon seal twins sequentially says that at 10 psi the hybrids aren't much more powerful - they are more linear in power delivery. The secret weapon turbos at 10 psi would spool faster than stock but not sure about power gains - the sweet spot seems to be 15-16 psi. Stephen was running 1.1 bar so that's less than 16 psi and he pulled those numbers. I'd imagine from 13 psi and up is where you'd really notice the jump in power

Ok, let me ask this:

Lets say I have these turbos in my car, other than an upgraded ECU to keep up with the fuel needed at 15ish psi, would I need anything? I realize that I wouldnt get the same power gains but thats not exactly what im after here. the question is, would it work?

you're gonna need an upgraded fuel pump and upgraded primary and secondary injectors also.

cant tell whats on your car actionhank. the stuff that artguy is what is needed to run this setup without blowing up your car. even if you turn the boost down the comp. wheels flow more cfm's than the stockers so you would HAVE to get all that stuff. its not worth it if you arent gonna do it right.

paul

No Bryan has rectified the "restrictive" manifold see below from Stephen:
Yup, Brian cut out the door in the manifold and I removed teh butterfly in the Y pipe. EVERYTHING single thing that has to do with the turbo system as been removed except the wg actuator and it hooked up totally manual with no wg solenoids or anything.

I was speaking hypotheticly. I was just wondering. It wouldnt have been anything high on my list but it sounds like it is going to be on it though. ;)

Wait... would I have to have a porteded engine too?

congratulations Brian and Stephen, and to everyone involved... i'll be one of many watching this closely.
just goes to show, turbos are like balls: two that get the job done are better than one big one. :) keep up the good work and Happy Christmas to all

Marshell is talking about all the other upgraded twins different venders have done over the years. They try to port the exhaust manifold and all kind of stuff claiming that the prob is the manifold design. All we did at all to the manifold setup was cut out the flapper which thousands of people have been doing for years when going non seq. Ever with that done it was always "known" that the manifold design wouldnt allow over about 400rwhp tops.

STEPHEN

merry xmas boys and girls...were getting dyno charts in our stockings tonight!

arent we santa?

j

These twins while bolt up are displacing the power of a large single....you will need the supporting mods.

Your really going to need a standalone like the PFC, haltec, AEM because when you start making power your going to need to control the timing. Your going to need the supporting fuel, your going to need a IC, intake, full exhaust.

Could you slap in a upgraded Pettit unlimited chiped ecu and these turbos....yes. BUT, I have not dynoed these at a lot boost level, I think even at 12psi youd be pretty much maxing out the stock fuel system so I wouldnt try it. I cant remember exactly but I THINK I was making well over 350rwhp at 12psi. You might would be ok if you still have the main cat in place as you wont be making as much power. There is only one way to find out and thats to get on a dyno and see how it does and what your a/f ratio is. I'd start at a low boost level like 8psi and see how your a/f looks. Once you get to around 340rwhp you need to have your fuel system and pump upgraded.

Also you really need a upgraded IC but these turbos run sooooo much cooler that I think you might can get by with the stock IC for a little while like up to about 10psi. Mainly you just need to watch your intake temp and make sure they are good, the stock IC will be a HUGE restriction but if your intake temps are ok thats whats important.

Now dont think your going to make a lot of power with a set up like that but it might get you by if you need turbos now and want to get something you can grow into. Personally I think most of the people wanting these already have all the supporting mods like intake, full exhaust, IC, computer, upgraded fuel.

STEPHEN

I think we are going to get the dyno charts Thrus. I couldnt go today since its Christmas Eve, I've got family coming over and I have a meeting till 2 so it was impossible. I think we are going to do it Thrusday.

You guys get ready cause we're also thinking of throwing in a splash of race gas and turning it up a another 1.5-2psi of boost

STEPHEN

:eek:
dayum, a few days inactive, and such breakthroughs ! amazing !

I can't wait for the dyno!

Make sure to document AFRs and gas type as well. Since I'm sure you'll be doing some lower boost runs followed by tuning and then moving to higher levels, if possible I'd like to see "best run" dynos at around 12psi, 15psi, and if you go higher.

If you do anything fun like make a video or something, I will host it :)

Brian

I vote (not that anybody cares :-)) you make at least some runs with street gas. It's all well and good to see some high output runs on race gas but to me real world runs are more telling. If you can make big HP on pump gas, safely, it goes without saying that you can up the HP with more octane.

Will you be posting both sets of charts?

the initial runs were on pump gas!!! . . . and all later that night was on pump gas. . . stephen wasted everybody on pump gas. . . and i mean EVERYBODY!! HAHAHA.

paul

You guys get ready cause we're also thinking of throwing in a splash of race gas and turning it up a another 1.5-2psi of boost


Hey Stephen, you're getting a little greedy already:D as if a jump of 120 rwhp or so wasn't enough:p: Just be careful - you don't have Hurley seals in do you? I know they've been failing on some engines - I have 2mm Hurleys and am scared to run over 15 psi - if Brian built your engine I'm sure he went back to oem.
Good luck and be careful...

Since I have a cat and am staying sequential I doubt I can squeeze more than 400 rwhp from the manifold on pump gas. We'll see....

you DO NOT want to run the stock IC on those turbos...the stock ic will choke the hell out of the system...sure you could drive it...but you can also drive the thing while it is overheating....if you go thru the trouble to do all that work and then slap the stock junk ic back in there...wtf did you go thru with all the trouble in the first place?

dont strangle your system...the diff between the stock choker IC and my m2 large was tremendous. upgraded turbos flow LOTS more than the stockers at equal boost levels. keep that in mind. its not just about the temps..its about flow and maximum flow.


j

I understand the first runs were on pump gas. But we have yet to see the graphs for the first runs. And it's my understanding that one of the reasons for the second set of runs is to back up the first set. So it just follows that if you want to back up the first set you need to do the second set with the same fuel.

Jason is right. It would be pointless to go to all the trouble of putting on high flow twins just to choke them down with the stock IC.

Exactly. To go along with that, you'll need everything you'd need to run a single turbo: fuel pump, injectors, IC, engine management, boost control, most likely an ignition amp/race plugs, informational gauges (oil/water temp, egt, etc) and also the suspension and brake upgrades so that you don't kill yourself with all this power :).

Over the last 4 years I've set my R1 up for this. The main change I had to make was tossing my Hurley apex seals in exchange for stock.

I can't believe I missed all this. Bryan, you da man!!! You too stephen

Raj

Hey Guys.

The stock intercooler will actually work, but it will be hard to turn the boost up past 13 or 14 psi. In hot weather you don't need to run the stock intercooler b/c it is a turd with pipes attatched to it. If your turbos need goin through go ahead and do it but just keep the boost down to a minimum.

Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com

at twelve pounds of boost thru my m2 turbos the car drove...you could literally feel it strangling the system...i put in the m2 large and zoooom it could breathe...and the turbos would sing. it was NIGHT and DAY....truly.

these turbos are meant for higher boost and more flow. if you are gonna run them on a stock ic you might as well have him rebuild your stock turbos to stock specs....and dont waste your time on that little greddy or pfs either...get the bigguns like the m2 large. you will thank us later. :)

j

ok ok i'm a little confused now... i'm running a m2 stage 3 ecu, m2 dp, racing beat cb, blitz intake. what else do i need just to get by for now. i have enough for the turbos... but i don't have enough for the ic, injectors, fuel pump, etc... can i drive my car safely with just the turbo upgrades??? for now???

I would doubt it because of the increased flow of these upgrades (especially with those mods). Correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't the M2 stage 3 ecu run boost at 12 lbs? If so, you would probably be running lean. 12 lbs on these should flow alot more than 12 lbs on stockers. Now if you had a stock setup you would be ok. No?

Your next step should prolly be an upgraded IC. I found my M2 large used for 1200 bones. If your turbos are shot, then get the BNRs by all means. You'd most likely have to keep the boost close to stock though, until you upgrade your fuel and engine management.

I have a question. Reading this thread is getting me all tingly to get these babys :). I have most of the stuff needed to run these turbos execpt for the fuel portion.

Is i going to be hard to tune all that extra fuel :larger pump, injectors etc.. with the stock twins. Then putting on the new turbos and retuning it. I would want to get that ot of the way so I can just slap on the new turbos.

Congrats on the turbos and hopefully everything will work out as planned. If it all does you sold me..........

What kind of engine management do you have? That is the big question. If you have a Power FC, then you're good to go. And tuning isn't a problem if you have a Steve Kan around....I'm sure he'd be willing to tune you :).

I do have a PFC and commander. Where is Steve Kan from?

You next step is a new ECU. Power FC etc..
Your current ECU wont handle the upgraded turbos.
Your other option is the keep the ECU you have and get the other bolt ons.

Jason

:bowdown: Sign me up!!!!!!!!!!! I want them.

was going to order a T-78 single but after reading the post for several days I would rather have the faster spool up and the same power as the t-78. Also at more than a grand cheaper I am there. One question I have the pettit ecu tuned at 15psi on seq. and the cool charge III ic, would these be sufficient to run these "Secret Weapons"


We are talking can drop the car off as long as needed.
Today!!!!!! and its christmas

Hey Bryan, I was just curious if it was possible to ungrade the twins of a 20b in this same mannor? Or would it be too much trouble?. The reason I'm asking is because it would allow a conversion to look more stock. Also you would achieve similar hp levels as a big single but, without the added cost of a custom exhaust manifold ect. This could really help someone pass the visual inspecton at the gas station ( which in my town only last about 2 secs). Just curious!


Oh one more thing, they don't smog down here either!

You're not going to see anything different on these turbos than the stock turbos - everything is the same except the internals and the stock turbos are basically hidden from sight anyways. I think the with the 20b twins, the secondary is larger than the primary - I know Bryan was talking about putting even a larger ugrade in the secondary of the 20b turbos to see what happens.

Most people wouldn't run a medium or large single turbo without fuel system upgrades so I would do these things first. A larger IC is a must - a good smic seems to work best with the twins (M2, CWC, even a Pettit III would be large enough) PFS, Greddy, and Blitz are all too small to run 400 rwhp. As earlier stated, if your turbos are shot then get the upgrades but stay at 9-10 psi. But I'd start upgrading your IC and fuel system first.

Hey Tvon.
I can upgrade your set of 20B turbos. Email me when you want to do it.

Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com

"Hey Guys.

The stock intercooler will actually work, but it will be hard to turn the boost up past 13 or 14 psi. In hot weather you don't need to run the stock intercooler b/c it is a turd with pipes attatched to it. If your turbos need goin through go ahead and do it but just keep the boost down to a minimum."

I must be missing something here, in one sentence you say: "The stock intercooler will actually work"

Then you say: "In hot weather you don't need to run the stock intercooler b/c it is a turd with pipes attatched to it."

Sorry, but the above statements makes no sense to me.
The stock IC will work but in hot weather you don't need it!?
Are you trying to say the stock IC is only usable in cold weather? Other wise you will need to go to a bigger IC?

As far as the M2 stage three ECU goes, I have one and it was still running rich at 16lb of boost with my M2 high flow twins. But I have gone to a PFC and I would recommend a programmable computer to anyone going for 400+ HP, whether you are using twins or a single. Anything else is just a waste of time and money IMHO.

Well fellas, I definately appreciate all of the information coming out of this thread. I never really expected this much enthusiasm, and you have definately made my decision when it comes time to buy much more simple.

Come spring, I will definately have a set of "Secret Weapon" twins on my FD. As per the intercooler requirements, I currently have the Greddy "large core" FMIC for the stock twins. I can sell it for something else if you honestly feel I should do so - but will this IC be able to handle 15-20 lbs from these twins?

If not, what are my best options. In all honesty I know VERY little about the M2 IC, but bought GReddy because I was so happy with the side-mount I had on my old MR2.

i think youre the only person that took it that way capt. bill. haha. hes just saying that the stock ic could be used temporarily if the boost is kept down and you dont get it too hot. it should definately be upgraded, but if it must stay for a bit then you need to keep the boost and temps. down.

paul

Hey Captain.
Let me also explain how an upgraded turbocharger works. When you upgrade a compressor wheel the larger wheel doesn't heat the compressed air up as much as the stock compressor wheel(s) therefore it helps reduce intake air charges before they hit the intercooler. Even though the intercooler isn't sufficient for an abundant amount of power, you can still increase the efficiency of the intercooler just by upgrading your turbocharger(s). When the temps heat up outside and the compressed air becomes less dense, chances of detonation will occur. When it is cool outside or you get a consistant amount of cool air through the factory intercooler, it will perform because air is forced through the intercooler whether it likes it or not. There are buick GN guys making over 500 hp at the wheels and 700+ ft./lbs of torque on their stock intercooler that flows right at 300CFM. Go figure! lol

i guess the question is..do you want to try to push your boost thru the tiny blowhole that the stock ic is?

sure you gain a temp drop with more efficient wheel sizes....however, you are also flowing huge amounts of air compared to the stock twins...and the pressure drop on the stock ic actually causes more unneccessary heat because you have to boost 17lbs on the turbos to see 15 actual lbs of boost...right?

on a good ic 17lbs will be right around 17lbs. no flow wasted and choked by that restriction that the stock unit is.

you are right bryan...the stock ic will work....just barely :) and you wont be getting your moneys worth.

Ive tried it myself on my own car. the stock unit choked the fukk out of my system...it was like trying to breathe with a sock in your mouth...you could do it by breathing thru your nose...but try running around the block like that...take out the sock and try it again. A great IC is a MUST have.

do it as a test...dyno a car on your secret weap turbos using the stock IC....then dyno the same car on the m2 large or similar.....i dont even think you will get one run out of 17lbs on a stock unit before you have to shut the car down and get the big fans on it.

dyno sheets...i feel like its extended xmas eve...lets see em soon guys...Im feeling antsy!


j

patience, Grasshoppa :D

I'll have dyno sheets hopefully by the end of the first week in Jan. My motor is apart right now, but as soon as I get back to TX on the 29th, Kan is porting my exhaust and we're putting the motor back together with stock apex seals. A/c and airpump are going the way of the dodo bird, and the Top Secrets and midpipe are goin on, along with a rebuilt alternator. After some serious Steveo Special Tuning on the street with datalogit and wideband, I'll hit the dynojet at RP and post that shiznit up :cool:

Merry Christmas everyone--

"Let me also explain how an upgraded turbocharger works. When you upgrade a compressor wheel the larger wheel doesn't heat the compressed air up as much as the stock compressor wheel(s) therefore it helps reduce intake air charges before they hit the intercooler. Even though the intercooler isn't sufficient for an abundant amount of power, you can still increase the efficiency of the intercooler just by upgrading your turbocharger(s). When the temps heat up outside and the compressed air becomes less dense, chances of detonation will occur. When it is cool outside or you get a consistant amount of cool air through the factory intercooler, it will perform because air is forced through the intercooler whether it likes it or not."

Thanks for the clarification. That's what I thought you were trying to say.

Where's the Dyno sheet???
 

I'm thinking about buying a set but I'm still skeptical about the hp produced.

Re: Where's the Dyno sheet???
 

It's coming. They used a dynomite dyno, which yields lower #s than the accpeted standard in the U.S., the dynojet. Not too many dynos are open on Christmas day, so I think they'll prolly hit the dynojet very soon ;)

Rich

Running sequentially would eliminate a lot of the "rats nest" am I correct? thx.

sequential is the stock setup with all the vacuum hoses, solenoids, check valves, etc.

Running them in parallel (non-seq) will eliminate the majority of the b.s., to include the prespool actuator and flapper valve, which leads to better exhaust flow.

Rich