It has been confirmed, these intercoolers are NOT made in China, they are made right here in the good ol' USA. Georgia to be exact.
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Originally Posted by Mahjik
Do you really think companies like Greddy, Apexi, HKS, Kevin and others all spent hundreds/thousands of dollars of R&D to create a product which someone can sell for $200?
http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.as...m=56-48Z0-F111 That's an OEM strut bar for over $700. You can buy virtually the same exact part for as little as $70. No one owes anyone a 'debt of gratitude.' That's great there is a $1500 IC out there, but just like over priced strut bars, there are similar cheaper alternatives. Some people are happy to pay $700 for a strut bar (or $1500 for an IC), others are happy with the $70 strut bar (or $99 IC). |
Based on this thread of yours I don't think there's much point trying to debate any of this with you ehos.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...7&page=1&pp=30 |
I gota say here that this is just spectacular, I was gona spend a G on name brand IC but now that this smic kit with pipes is available for under 200, shit im gona buy 4 of em and save myself 200$! that way if one gets too hot i will have 3 backups on ice i can swap in at a moments notice :) seriously tho, im buyin unless i see some hard data that says it is actualy worse than the stocker heat wise... at least it wont pop like the stock one will !!!!!! thats worth 200 in my book.....
Oh yea, and anybody who realy wants to bash a product ehem dont need to mention names.... Y not bash those "straps" they make for the stock IC to keep it from exploding that cost 115$$$$ :rlaugh: |
Originally Posted by ehos
Yes. For example...
http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.as...m=56-48Z0-F111 That's an OEM strut bar for over $700. You can buy virtually the same exact part for as little as $70. Someone will always be able to sell something cheaper if they are just "copying" something else. All the thought and work in creating it (R&D costs) have already been done for them. However, have you ever use a photo copier? You ever notice that the copy is never as good as the original? ;) In some case, replicas or copies are nice. Something like a strut bar is a no brainer. However, these IC's are honest built like crap. Does that mean they are worthless? Not necessarily. Just don't expect $1000 performance from a $200 part. |
Originally Posted by Mahjik
Once again, you can't compare OEM to copies. Hell, the OEM IC cost as much as Kevin's IC and there is obviously a performance difference. OEM bolts to hold the calipers are about $8 a piece. You can get a set of 12 for a little more from McMaster-Carr.
Someone will always be able to sell something cheaper if they are just "copying" something else. All the thought and work in creating it (R&D costs) have already been done for them. However, have you ever use a photo copier? You ever notice that the copy is never as good as the original? ;) In some case, replicas or copies are nice. Something like a strut bar is a no brainer. However, these IC's are honest built like crap. Does that mean they are worthless? Not necessarily. Just don't expect $1000 performance from a $200 part. |
Originally Posted by HDP
I still can't figure this out, why does everyone say these are built like crap and have never seen one in person? Have you actually seen one (not from pics or word of mouth) to make a judgment like that?
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Originally Posted by Mahjik
So let me get this straight; you don't think that's an XS Power IC that Kevin took pictures of?
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Originally Posted by HDP
You didn't answer my question
Originally Posted by HDP
... but to answer yours, yes it is, but it's not the quality of the one I received. What makes you think there would be no defective units produced? If you will read back, everyone that has one stated the quality of their is much better than the one pictured.
Kevin has posted pictures of his, someone else needs to post similar pictures to show "a good one". |
Originally Posted by Mahjik
I've never been to the moon but I can tell you what color the surface is.... Why? Someone who has been there sent pictures back.
Originally Posted by Mahjik
That also bring up another point. If Kevin got "a bad one", how can anyone be assured that they will get a good one?
Originally Posted by Mahjik
Kevin has posted pictures of his, someone else needs to post similar pictures to show "a good one".
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Ask and you shall receive, I want to say that I have no hand in saying that anything is better or worse. They say that a picture is worth a thousand words, so here is my essay. I would like to point out that on the weld points all I see is pits from polishing, which I could be wrong but my trusty friends in Gator country (cantgostraight- Jack) might be able to shed some light on that. Other than that my IC is extremely dirty with smudges all over it and that is the only problem I can see. Now for fun I would love to the same points documented on the ASP core. You know for comparison:icon_tup: Have fun.:)
http://usera.imagecave.com/sonix7/Picture030.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/sonix7/Picture038.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/sonix7/Picture039.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/sonix7/Picture040.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/sonix7/Picture041.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/sonix7/Picture042.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/sonix7/Picture043.jpg |
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Originally Posted by HDP
I'm just trying to get fools to stop ridiculing me for not being financially well-off as they feel one who owns an RX-7 should be (even though my base is over $33k) and for making a decision that best suits my needs.
Very simplistic example, but just to prove a point: If the XS SMIC can get you a 1/4 time of 12.5 and Kevins IC can get you 12.1, is the price of Kevin's IC worth the .4 for you? Or, if you never drag race for competition would you ever know you were losing that extra .4 potential? That's all he's saying. He's saying that the people that don't care about that .4 aren't his target market in the first place. However, if you read Kevin's messages, he also said that if the XS core was "good", he could use a similar core and substantially cut his costs. But, that will take some testing/time to prove or disprove the efficiency of the design. |
Originally Posted by HDP
It has been confirmed, these intercoolers are NOT made in China, they are made right here in the good ol' USA. Georgia to be exact.
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Can't everyone see this thread is really going no where? 28 pages of the same thing. Everyone here is just too stubborn to ever come to an agreement here.
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Originally Posted by Mahjik
Very simplistic example, but just to prove a point: If the XS SMIC can get you a 1/4 time of 12.5 and Kevins IC can get you 12.1, is the price of Kevin's IC worth the .4 for you? Or, if you never drag race for competition would you ever know you were losing that extra .4 potential?
Think of it like this, what would you rather have, a $1500 IC, or a $99 IC and $1400 of other mods?? Let's see, you could buy a PFC ($700), Midpipe/downpipe, RB Catback, Duct/Pulleys or a single solitary $1500 IC. Hmmmm. See, most of us don't want to jump out and buy a $1500 IC first thing. Maybe our stock intercooler just needs an upgrade, and maybe we'll come back and buy a nicer IC as we need. One thing is for sure. After reading Kevins' posts and his xenophobia, I would never buy his $1500 IC. Way to scare off any potential buyers with your posts. And yes, I can afford your IC, just as I can afford my FD. |
Originally Posted by ehos
See, most of us don't want to jump out and buy a $1500 IC first thing. Maybe our stock intercooler just needs an upgrade, and maybe we'll come back and buy a nicer IC as we need.
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Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
The performance characteristics of the medium vs. large vary with air speed through the core. At higher air speeds through the core they are actually within a few percentage points of each other with respect to efficiency. At lower air speeds the large becomes a fair bit more efficient.
Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
The SCC tests weren't a tightly controlled test with a lot of potential variables.
Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
I don't think you understand how heat transfer works. A good starting point would be Newton's law of cooling. Some very basic concepts, thermal exchange obviously increases with time, although rate of exchange does decrease with a smaller delta T. Pressure and air speed reduce with increases in volume. Air is a compressible medium. The face of the intercooler is a larger restriction than an unobstructed smaller air duct. Maybe some people would like to do displacement tests with water to demonstrate the frontal area open to air with various intercoolers. I think I'll leave it at that as a starting point for you.
I did do some frontal area measurements: Cross sectional of stock duct intake = 13 square inches Cross sectional of area available for flow in XSPPOWER IC = 64 square inches I don't have an ASP medium, but it is probably about the same as the XSPOWER. I leave it to readers to decide for themselves whether they can feed air to 64 square inches of exit, using only 13 square inches of intake, without seeing some performance decrease.
Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
It's not like I changed my screen name and claimed to be some unnamed third party with 20 posts then started posting how great one IC brand is and how bad another is. Bias is a bad thing when it's found in people claiming to be unbiased or when they keep their bias hidden. Obviously you have a bias as well, the only difference is we don't know who you are or what the cause of your bias is. Mine's out in the open :). Point being bias isn't such a bad thing when it's known.
bias = A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment Worth contemplating as the XSPOWER inquisition proceeds... |
This is getting pretty funny. It's like a mess of people trying to argue that Casio is just as good as a Rolex. Actually it would be more accurate to say people trying to argue that Rolex fakes make in SE Asia are just as good as the real thing. Prove it's not yadda yadda. There is no point to this. I'll post more results as I have time to test things.
Sonic, they apparently changed these recently. They now have a cast end tank, so you got a better unit with respect to end tank interior volume, weight etc. It also appears the welding quality has changed. Also pits don't ever come from polishing, it happens during welding. |
Originally Posted by primerGrey
...I have a technical degree in fluid mechanics and heat transfer.
I did do some frontal area measurements: Cross sectional of stock duct intake = 13 square inches Cross sectional of area available for flow in XSPPOWER IC = 64 square inches Want to know a little secret? The efficiency numbers are for the core assemblies outside of a car with no duct at all. :rlaugh:. Cough cough. So what does that indicate again hahha. "I love the idea that you propose to use a water test for an IC designed to be used with air. Think there might be some reason airplanes are tested in wind tunnels, and submarines in flow chambers, and not vice-versa?" My goodness you just aren't getting any of this are you? The water will be on the outside, as in a tank of water. The IC will be placed inside the tank and pressurized with air to see if core has leaks in the brazing between layers indicated by little bubbles. You know, like the guys at the tire repair shop looking for a leak in a tire? Maybe you should contact the tire repair place for a degree. ROFLMAO, I really believe that degree given what you've posted in all of this. "Cross sectional of stock duct intake = 13 square inches" I just measured one of my ducts. It's 11 3/4" x 2" at its smallest point, 23.5 square inches is the real number. More importantly it's at ambient air temp of 70 or whatever with substantial pressure differential, which is what causes air flow to begin with. "Cross sectional of area available for flow in XSPPOWER IC = 64 square inches": at 200 odd degrees ambient engine bay temp at essentially 0 pressure differential, meaning there will be no flow across the core no matter the cross section, meaning near 0% efficiency outside of that of simple radiant cooling. A stock IC would cool better I'm sorry to say. No duct means basically no cooling at all. "technical degree in fluid mechanics and heat transfer" I'd love to hear where that came from. |
Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
This is getting pretty funny. It's like a mess of people trying to argue that Casio is just as good as a Rolex.
Just because the IC you sell is $1500 doesn't mean it's worth that much money. The law of diminishing returns says the return of your $1500 IC can't be as effective as the $99 XS IC. Both IC's cool air (your watch analogy, ie they both tell time), but does your IC cool air SOOOOoo much better that it's worth the extra $1400? The onus of proof isn't on the XS IC. It's on your $1500 IC. YOU have to disprove that the $99 IC isn't worth it to my biased eyes. Some people need the bling bling of a Rolex, others can do with a Casio. :) |
Originally Posted by ehos
The onus of proof isn't on the XS IC. It's on your $1500 IC.
YOU have to disprove that the $99 IC isn't worth it to my biased eyes. BTW where does this $99 figure keep coming from? I had to pay over $200 for it as others have mentioned doing so as well. |
Originally Posted by ehos
...The onus of proof isn't on the XS IC....
The onus of proof is on you ehos not on anyone else. You and others are the one claiming that the intercooler is better than stock and worth the cost paid for it WITHOUT ANY DATA! Your basing your idea that this is worth the "value" simply on the appearance and cost to you. |
There should be an Ebay section on this forum :rlaugh:
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Originally Posted by Kevin T. Wyum
Why in the world would I be responsible for proving the performance of some cheap copy?
YOU are responsible for proving your $1500 IC is worth it by disproving the $99 XS IC. You have to show your customers that this 'cheap' (your words) copy isn't as good as the $1500 IC. If I bought your $1500 IC, I would be wondering where that extra $1400 went. Hmmm. Is that IC gold plated by chance? |
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