Mr. Stock

Zero R does have one valid point and that is that an ABS equipped car will allow the driver to brake hard, to the point of lock up in a non-ABS car, and still have some steering capability at the same time. This is the other reason for keeping the ABS on the street.

Or, at least I think that is what he meant by "keep control".

edmcguirk

I'll bet the average amature racer probably won't take full advantage of the benefits of maximum braking that ABS will give you.

However

Everyone, especially the most novice amature racer, will benefit from tires with no flat spots!

If you are allowed to keep ABS by all means keep ABS. It will pay for itself in tires. It will pay for itself in faster lap times on round tires. Rain? Oil? nuff said.

ed

Mr. Stock

You bet wrong.

The "average amateur racer" is precisely the one who can and should take advantage of the benefits of maximum braking ABS.

Just press on the brakes as hard as possible and ABS takes care of the rest. No threshold braking skill is needed. If this is not heaven-sent for the "average amateur racer", I am not sure what is.

xxxtodxxx

i was thinking about relocating mine under the dash where the ac used to be that i'm taking out. make a sheet metal duct around it like the condenser was and then it can be cooled by the fan. for no reason

FLA94FD

Why don't you just diet

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

"Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without it? Not always. Although the stopping distance with ABS is shorter under most road conditions, drivers should always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of them and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions. While a vehicle with ABS maintains its steering capability in a sudden stop, it may not turn as quickly on a slippery road as it would on dry pavement."

That is from ABS Facts.

"Still, it's important to note that ABS works to help a driver stay in control of the vehicle as it stops. But ABS does not necessarily reduce the distance needed to stop the car."

From another ABS facts page.

"ABS does not necessarily reduce the stopping distance, and in fact it can actually increase it slightly on dry pavement. But on wet or slick pavement, it may reduce the stopping distance up to 25% or more—which could be the difference between a safe stop and an accident."

Yet another.

"This stability control technology shares three critical features with ABS. First, the laws of physics still apply. You can lose control of the vehicle. ABS provides more controlled stops, not necessarily shorter stops. TCS provides dynamic stability, however, adhesion limits can still be exceeded.
If you come in to a corner way too fast, even a stability controlled car will understeer. If you come into an evasive drill (sudden lane change) way too fast, it will understeer then oversteer as you correct. If you are way too fast on a corner exit (steady-state cornering), it will still understeer. If you give it way too much throttle on corner exit, it will at least start to oversteer. Stability control is an incredible safety feature, but it is only a help. It can be overdriven."

Facts page about Stability systems.

Do a search and just about everything everywhere will tell you ABS helps with retaining steering input.

As for the gravel and snow you are halfway correct. It is one of the few times where a tire with a low friction level will out brake one with higher friction level. That is different. To say that a non-ABS car can't stop shorter than a ABS car on dry pavement is wrong. It can. It depends more on the driver than anything else.(obviously the average street guy wont know any better) Brakes are not directly responsible for stopping the car. Tires are the number one part. Good tires and good drivers have been able to brake hard until threshold and then slightly release pressure. This will allow for a more constant force of friction between tire and road. ABS does not apply a constant force. As for modulating between tires that is more like a EBD system. It is supplemental to ABS.

I wont argue over it, for the average guy it is going to work better. I'm sure that applies to 99% of the people on this board. For someone who really knows his car and setup he doesn't need it.

itr_hybrid

Allow me to way in on this one...

I am a relative newb to the rx-7, but I am one of the few people on here who hold a racing license and compete in wheel-towheel competition. I have also been a driving instructor for the last five years. I'm not always the fastest guy on the track, but with 60+ track weekends under my belt, I'm not bad.

That said...you're nuts to get rid of the ABS. A decently tuned ABS system is a huge advantage...on the track and off. Enough so that I am in the process of installing it in my racecar now that is legal in my series.

Yes...I can late brake / threshold brake at least as well as most other track-rats, but can I do it consistently 30 laps in a row? Nope. Can ABS...yep. Just ask the ABS equipped guys going buy me still on the throttle as I am getting on the brakes. It really helps at places like turn 5 at summit where you are braking while still getting the car settled.

When should you pull ABS...there are only a few scenarios IMHO:

1) An all-out drag car (weight is everyting and stopping is not a priority)
2) It's illegal in the series you compete in
3) The "factory" system is poorly tuned (the FD is pretty good). This can cause the system to engage when you are trail-braking, etc.
4) There is such a fatal flaw in the design of the stock system (brake balance, etc.), that you have to chuck the whole thing and go to a fully adjustable dual master cylinder set-up.

If you never track the car, leave it in.
If you track the car a couple of times a year, leave it in.
If your annual "racing budget" and your annual mortage are about equal...then maybe think about pulling it. Maybe

- Phillip
AKA "Backmarker" ECHC #94

poss

iTrader: (5)

I agree completely.

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

I think you guys are taking my posts wrong. I'm not argueing that ABS has it's benefits. I'm argueing with this statement here.
It is just plain untrue. Maybe I should have made it a little more clear in the beginning. Even still, fact is ABS does not make you stop shorter, it is designed to allow you to maintain steering and control. That has nothing to do with it's benifits lapping or driving around town.

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

It does allow you to stop shorter if you are turning. While auto-xing I used to lock my inside tire all the time heading into a corner. ABS helps me out.

Also on track cars, flat spots are no fun. With ABS you avoid ruining tires.

It does allow you to stop shorter if you averaged stopping as quickly as you can 20 times on the street. It is more consistant.

'40 increase in stopping distance, yes that is BS.

edmcguirk

The average amature racer can certainly benefit from the consistency of jamming the ABS brakes on hard but the average amature racer almost never brakes at the last possible instant.

Maybe the average amature racer will notice that there are a few extra feet leftover at the end of the brake zone but there are so many other things going on that the average amature racer is still trying to learn that he is not likely to take advantage of those few extra feet.

Consistancy and round tires are the big advantage. Slightly shorter brake zones may not be noticed until you are well above an average amature racer.

ed

Fd3BOOST

iTrader: (7)

I removed the ABS from my street car about a year ago. It was a mistake and I have been meaning to re-install it. I would suggest that you keep it. The only real gain that I will be bummed to lose is the great access to the wire loom through the fire wall. That alone is not worth an accident though.

cmartinp28

vosko got hit by a volkswagen cuz he couldnt stop fast enough... he had no abs

keep the abs, there are other things you can take off to save 15 lbs of metal